Relativism confused as Christianity is gaining Muslims converts.

[pro_universal]

There is absolutely no question that on average, Islamic women are more chaste than Christians. It is beyond absurd to claim the opposite, whatever your reasoning.

Islamic men are not, by religious principle, allowed to be unchaste either.

As for the rest, you’re basically saying it’s better for western men to actually touch your body than for suspected middle eastern men to say suggestive things to you. That is an odd evaluation, in my opinion. Touching without permission is actually a crime in the US; talking isn’t.

On India, again, my point is that he’s probably not telling the truth based on the fact that travel is extremely restricted (and that he hasn’t even bothered to try and respond here.) There are good reasons to doubt his claims, and more good reasons to suspect that he’s simply trying to bash Pakistan in comparison to India when no such bashing is warranted.

 

[Ella]

There is absolutely no question that on average, Islamic women are more chaste than Christians. It is beyond absurd to claim the opposite, whatever your reasoning.

Proof? Where is your proof? How many devout Christians do you know who have sex? They are committing mortal sin… and Islamic women… if they were so chaste why would a surgery to make it appear that they are virgins for their marriage night be so popular?

Islamic men are not, by religious principle, allowed to be unchaste either.

Hmmmm again read “Palace Walk”. I don’t think they are very chaste.

As for the rest, you’re basically saying it’s better for western men to actually touch your body than for suspected middle eastern men to say suggestive things to you. That is an odd evaluation, in my opinion. Touching without permission is actually a crime in the US; talking isn’t.

Where ON EARTH did you get that from. LMAO!? I did NOT say that at all, Pro. Like I said, getting my butt pinched anonomously on a bus was scary. Having a group of arab men ask me to sleep with them (well, F them is more accurate) was scarier. Having a group of men assume I was a prostitute just because I’m a western women is very scary. Ask any woman you know which one would be scarier.

On India, again, my point is that he’s probably not telling the truth based on the fact that travel is extremely restricted (and that he hasn’t even bothered to try and respond here.) There are good reasons to doubt his claims, and more good reasons to suspect that he’s simply trying to bash Pakistan in comparison to India when no such bashing is warranted.

It’s his word against yours. You seem to be saying it’s impossible for women in saris to be harrassed in Pakistan.

I think you’d understand better if you were a woman, which is why I say it would be good for you to talk to some.

 

[pro_universal]

Proof? Where is your proof? How many devout Christians do you know who have sex? They are committing mortal sin… and Islamic women… if they were so chaste why would a surgery to make it appear that they are virgins for their marriage night be so popular?

Look at the surveys sometime. In conservative America, about 80 percent have sex before marriage. As many as half of the 20 percent who claim that they don’t, are likely not telling the truth. There are studies on both of these points.

The surgery, btw, was invented in the west. It’s rare in the third world countries where most Muslims live, because most people are too poor to pay for it, and because women simply do not spend time alone with men the same way they do in the west. That’s a fact; middle eastern societies especially do not leave women alone with men like western ones.

Like I said, getting my butt pinched anonomously on a bus was scary. Having a group of arab men ask me to sleep with them (well, F them is more accurate) was scarier. Having a group of men assume I was a prostitute just because I’m a western women is very scary.

Again, being assaulted is less scary to you than being propositioned verbally. Nice.

It’s his word against yours. You seem to be saying it’s impossible for women in saris to be harrassed in Pakistan.

No, I’m saying it’s nearly impossible for any Indians at all to go to Pakistan. And wearing an Indian sari there is even less likely.

Hence, his story is not a likely one.

 

[Ella]

Look at the surveys sometime. In conservative America, about 80 percent have sex before marriage. As many as half of the 20 percent who claim that they don’t, are likely not telling the truth. There are studies on both of these points.

“Americans” not “Christians”. The terms are not synonymous. And you KNOW that, Pro…

The surgery, btw, was invented in the west.

So what?

It’s rare in the third world countries where most Muslims live, because most people are too poor to pay for it, and because women simply do not spend time alone with men the same way they do in the west. That’s a fact; middle eastern societies especially do not leave women alone with men like western ones.

Because women are kept like prisioners in their homes. Do you think that’s a good practice, Pro?

Again, being assaulted is less scary to you than being propositioned verbally. Nice.

Being grabbed in an alley = assaulted.
Being pinched on a bus is not being assaulted. But keep trying to divert the argument.
Any other women on here want to tell us which one you’d find scarier, being pinched on a crowded bus or being propositioned by a group of arab men to F them because they think you’re a prostitute?

No, I’m saying it’s nearly impossible for any Indians at all to go to Pakistan. And wearing an Indian sari there is even less likely.

Well I don’t think you really know if it’s impossible or not.

Hence, his story is not a likely one.

 

[Ella]

One more thing before I go out for some errands. Notice how you’re cross-examining my statements like a prosecutor, Pro? That’s not a dialogue, and it serves nothing. You’re talking to a woman about her feelings and you’re on attack mode. Is this the kind of person you want to be?

I know you feel fervently about Islam and Muslim people right now, but I wonder if your participation in this forum is good for you anymore, if it ever was.

 

[undeserving]

Well, that was an interesting response.

In the first place, my point was that undeserving’s post was hypocritical. He was whitewashing the abuse of women in India in order to slam Pakistan, as if Pakistan is somehow worse for women. The fact of the matter is, we know that’s not the case now. Women cannot go around in skimpy dresses in Pakistan, but they also have the right not to be burned when their husbands die. Indian women can dress skimpy, but are discriminated against and come from a culture where women are so little valued that they were and now only sometimes are immolated when their husbands die.

Your experiences with “Arabs” whom you assume were Arabs based on their looks (a strange assumption) are odd, to say the least. You don’t really know, just suspect, and at the same time, claim you never experienced this sort of thing in Mexico.

I am Mexican. If you went there and didn’t get oggled, you are either a man or invisible. This is, like molestation is shared between India and America, a problem that Catholic cultures share with Islamic ones.

Well its obvious where your sympathies lie. I have nothing more to say except that there is absolutely NO similarity beteen the way women TODAY are treated in India, and the submission expected of muslim women anywhere in the world.

 

[pro_universal]

Well its obvious where your sympathies lie. I have nothing more to say except that there is absolutely NO similarity beteen the way women TODAY are treated in India, and the submission expected of muslim women anywhere in the world.

Oh yes, I agree.

Nowhere in the Muslim world are girls “consecrated” into prostitution by “holy men” like they are in India, nor burned alive because their husbands died. Yep. No similarity at all.

 

[cestusdei]

No, they just marry them at age 9 and stone them to death occasionally. Much more civilized and humane.

 

[Orionthehunter]

I post on a Muslim message board because the religion intrigues me, and I find myself curious even drawn to it. In reading the story of a poster who is a Catholic considering converting to Islam he wrote this:

*"The number one benefit of the muslim way, in my eyes, is the fact that moslim women seem to be way more chaste than Christian women or unbelievers. They tend to refrain from engaging in premarital sex (zina); and the low divorce rate of muslim marriages is certainly highly praiseworthy.

To tell you the truth, if I ever convert, it would be in an attempt to seek a muslim wife and reduce the risk of a horrible family life with an unbeliever or with a Christian wife. Another advantage would be the fact that muslims seem to be more successful at keeping the children within the creed, while children born to Christian parents become almost systematically atheists, and that would be horrible in my book."*

I found myself both flabbergasted and unable to refute what the poster wrote. Fact is most western Christian women have been with several men by the time they marry I would guestimate ~90-95% of western Christian women are not virgins by marriage . I would assume the Muslim percentage is far lower. How do you argue with something like this? What do I say to the guy? Yeah Christianity is great even though 95% of the West doesn’t abide by its precepts???

What do I say to the guy, I’ve also had the same thoughts (not converting to Islam though). How is our way the right way when the fruit we bear is rotten?

St. Michael, I’m confused about what is going on with you. This is a post of yours from September 6th. One minute you think your views on Muslim’s makes you a bigot and 30 days later, you are leaving the church.

Earlier in the year my wife and I decided to send my son to public school because we are tight with money. However upon taking my son to orientation we noticed he was only one of five white students, and the majority of the students were Muslim (we live in Brooklyn in an area that has a high concentration of Muslims).

Well anyway I feel pretty badly about making the decision based on race (moreso on religion), but kids I think will ostracize my son for 1. being white 2. being a non-Muslim. The Catholic school is 89% white and the rest hispanic and Asian which I feel is a better environment for my son, since there will be kids he can relate to, and won’t “gang up” on him for being different.

Bottom line I feel like a racist, but I also realize that I made the right decision for my son as backward as the reasoning seems. Has anyone out there struggled with a similar situation, or decided on Catholic school for all the wrong reasons?

I don’t consider myself a bigot, and I get along with other people just fine and in no way think I or my son are better than anyone, but I also live in the real world, and in Brooklyn especially amongst Muslims people get very “clannish” for lack of a better word.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

ronald

*Satan is very smart my friend.
*
If Satan is so smart, what’s he doing in Hell?

It’s not that Satan is so smart. It’s that we, like Satan, are willing to be so dumb.

 

[meedo]

''Earlier in the year my wife and I decided to send my son to public school because we are tight with money. However upon taking my son to orientation we noticed he was only one of five white students, and the majority of the students were Muslim (we live in Brooklyn in an area that has a high concentration of Muslims).

Well anyway I feel pretty badly about making the decision based on race (moreso on religion), but kids I think will ostracize my son for 1. being white 2. being a non-Muslim. The Catholic school is 89% white and the rest hispanic and Asian which I feel is a better environment for my son, since there will be kids he can relate to, and won’t “gang up” on him for being different.

Bottom line I feel like a racist, but I also realize that I made the right decision for my son as backward as the reasoning seems. Has anyone out there struggled with a similar situation, or decided on Catholic school for all the wrong reasons?

I don’t consider myself a bigot, and I get along with other people just fine and in no way think I or my son are better than anyone, but I also live in the real world, and in Brooklyn especially amongst Muslims people get very “clannish” for lack of a better word. ‘’’’’

St Michael,

I am a muslim. You are not a bigot, Nor a racist, and i understand that you wouldnt want to put your child in the face of unwanted attention. After all , these are all kids. Muslim children as a minority in white schools will probably have the same problems.

Good luck in raising your children . You have the responsibility of choosing the best for them . As for your concerns about your daughter, the best thing is to be her friend. raiew her up so that she will see you as her trusted friend. Tell her always the harms of premarital sex and the ills of society. May be put her in all girls catholic school . She will probably concentrate more on her studies and turn to have a great career. Its important that you and your spouse are united behind this goal. try to delve her more into hobbies and reading more than TV.

I pray for you ,

salam

 

[Saint_Michael]

St. Michael, I’m confused about what is going on with you. This is a post of yours from September 6th. One minute you think your views on Muslim’s makes you a bigot and 30 days later, you are leaving the church.

The quote from this topic was from islamicity message boards, not me, I’ll be honest my faith is not strong, and this site hurts it. The constant onslaught of detractors, the priesthood scandal, constant controversies are very hard for someone to come to terms with whose faith is not very strong.

But I’ve been trying, I haven’t left the Church and apologize for the things I’ve said that could be viewed as attacking the Church. Honestly they were the frustrated ramblings of a bad Catholic. Instead of leaving I’ve gone to confession, began attending daily Mass, reading the scriptures and Catholic teaching more in depth.

I just have a much harder time with faith than most people I think, but I will try in the future to not take my frustrations out by venting them on this site. I can only pray nothing I wrote hurt anyones faith as much of the stuff I read hurts my own.

Sorry.

 

[Stephen_C]

The quote from this topic was from islamicity message boards, not me, I’ll be honest my faith is not strong, and this site hurts it. The constant onslaught of detractors, the priesthood scandal, constant controversies are very hard for someone to come to terms with whose faith is not very strong.

But I’ve been trying, I haven’t left the Church and apologize for the things I’ve said that could be viewed as attacking the Church. Honestly they were the frustrated ramblings of a bad Catholic. Instead of leaving I’ve gone to confession, began attending daily Mass, reading the scriptures and Catholic teaching more in depth.

I just have a much harder time with faith than most people I think, but I will try in the future to not take my frustrations out by venting them on this site. I can only pray nothing I wrote hurt anyones faith as much of the stuff I read hurts my own.

Sorry.

Saint_Michael,
I am glad you have not left the Church. You are in my prayers.

 

[Orionthehunter]

The quote from this topic was from islamicity message boards, not me, I’ll be honest my faith is not strong, and this site hurts it. The constant onslaught of detractors, the priesthood scandal, constant controversies are very hard for someone to come to terms with whose faith is not very strong.
But I’ve been trying, I haven’t left the Church and apologize for the things I’ve said that could be viewed as attacking the Church. Honestly they were the frustrated ramblings of a bad Catholic. Instead of leaving I’ve gone to confession, began attending daily Mass, reading the scriptures and Catholic teaching more in depth.

I just have a much harder time with faith than most people I think, but I will try in the future to not take my frustrations out by venting them on this site. I can only pray nothing I wrote hurt anyones faith as much of the stuff I read hurts my own.

Sorry.

No. My apologies are more apprppriate. I didn’t read your OP with the diligence it required. I thought you intended to convert for this reason.

Regarding what I bolded above, it is all the things that you site that prove that Satan is active in our world. He knows that these things can distract us and cause us to lose faith. See them for what they are (evidence of Satan) and not what they aren’t (evidence that God doesn’t care).

Regarding your characterization of yourself as a “bad Catholic”. This too is Satan finding your weak spot. We all have doubts, stuggles, and obstacles. Attack Satan as you are doing. This is what God wants. He will not be outdone in charity and mercy.

Finally, don’t refrain from venting here. Just be prepared that some will respond with velvet glove and some will respond with a sword. But in all cases, they are responding in love. When you vent, you give us insight into how Satan is attacking you. We are soldiers in God’s service. Sometimes we just use the wrong instrument. But see the responses for what they are and not how Satan wants you to see them.

 

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace,

I frequent Baptist, Orthodox, Muslim and General Christian forums and all in the hope of ecumenical dialogue.

There are times when arguments reveal a bias I might have or a particular virtue which I might have overlooked in another religious practice. I try not to get defensive and hopefully I learn something about them and about myself.

In the west we have a great many virtues, modesty in our women isn’t one of them. Perhaps a few hundred years ago it was but nolonger.

Modesty appears to be valued in traditional Arab Culture and they have social pressures which encourage this and families which insure this. I can appreciate that for what it is and not feel the need to belittle it nor rationalize our own cultures failure to promote it.

Pax

 

[Damascus]

St. Michael-

If you are telling us that you are in a struggle in your faith now, do you think it is prudent to be on Muslim forums now?

If a man who was having a struggle with being monogamous with his wife did nice things for her daily but at night went to the singles clubs - would you think he was sincerely trying to work on his struggle?

Near occasion of sin. If you know you are in jepordy of making a grave mortal sin, you must remove the temptation.

St. Michael- protect us! Pray for us!

Sincerity is everything. You cant run away from something to something else.
You must run toward something or it is a cycle you will repeat - never finding the thing you seek. You would not be doing yourself any favors by running scared. Embrace the fact that humans err. Yet, through Jesus Christ, this is not a matter for us to worry on. You can give up your thoughts of perfection in the Church. Worry about the teachings and Jesus. And your own faults, we are all suffering from Original Sin, as much as the evil one wants you to think otherwise.

 

[Damascus]

Grace and Peace,

I frequent Baptist, Orthodox, Muslim and General Christian forums and all in the hope of ecumenical dialogue.

There are times when arguments reveal a bias I might have or a particular virtue which I might have overlooked in another religious practice. I try not to get defensive and hopefully I learn something about them and about myself.

In the west we have a great many virtues, modesty in our women isn’t one of them. Perhaps a few hundred years ago it was but nolonger.

Modesty appears to be valued in traditional Arab Culture and they have social pressures which encourage this and families which insure this. I can appreciate that for what it is and not feel the need to belittle it nor rationalize our own cultures failure to promote it.

Pax

“Our women” Hmm. Sounds very politically incorrect IMHO. Men classifying women as “ours”…
Interesting veiwpoint. I am still trying to digest it.

 

[chrisb]

“Our women” Hmm. Sounds very politically incorrect IMHO. Men classifying women as “ours”…
Interesting veiwpoint. I am still trying to digest it.

“our” speaks “socialogically” not “personally”. We’re talking about Cultures here not individuals. Please keep it in context and you won’t have an issue “politically”.

Pax