Relativism confused as Christianity is gaining Muslims converts.

[Saint_Michael]

I post on a Muslim message board because the religion intrigues me, and I find myself curious even drawn to it. In reading the story of a poster who is a Catholic considering converting to Islam he wrote this:

*"The number one benefit of the muslim way, in my eyes, is the fact that moslim women seem to be way more chaste than Christian women or unbelievers. They tend to refrain from engaging in premarital sex (zina); and the low divorce rate of muslim marriages is certainly highly praiseworthy.

To tell you the truth, if I ever convert, it would be in an attempt to seek a muslim wife and reduce the risk of a horrible family life with an unbeliever or with a Christian wife. Another advantage would be the fact that muslims seem to be more successful at keeping the children within the creed, while children born to Christian parents become almost systematically atheists, and that would be horrible in my book."*

I found myself both flabbergasted and unable to refute what the poster wrote. Fact is most western Christian women have been with several men by the time they marry I would guestimate ~90-95% of western Christian women are not virgins by marriage . I would assume the Muslim percentage is far lower. How do you argue with something like this? What do I say to the guy? Yeah Christianity is great even though 95% of the West doesn’t abide by its precepts???

What do I say to the guy, I’ve also had the same thoughts (not converting to Islam though). How is our way the right way when the fruit we bear is rotten?

 

[Ella]

I dunno, but what percentage of Muslim MEN are virgins when they get married?

 

[corvidae]

Just a thought, but is it still good if the only reason they remained a virgin was because of threats. As far as I know, the laws in much of the muslim world can provide death to a fornicator, even if she was raped.

It doesn’t seem much better when you look at it that way. I mean, would I want a woman who saved herself for me, or a woman that simply did not want to die.

A lone Raven

 

[Saint_Michael]

Just a thought, but is it still good if the only reason they remained a virgin was because of threats. As far as I know, the laws in much of the muslim world can provide death to a fornicator, even if she was raped.

It doesn’t seem much better when you look at it that way. I mean, would I want a woman who saved herself for me, or a woman that simply did not want to die.

A lone Raven

I think those cases are very rare and sensationalized by the press. If I had to give an honest assertion of Muslim women it’s that they are much more respectful of chastity and how they conduct themselves, Christian girls parade around in make-up tight pants, high heels, and their boobs showing and the Muslim women are always covered pushing a stroller and tending to their kids. I live in an area of Brooklyn that has a very high contrast of Muslims and Christians, it also has a lot of bars (you Brooklyn folks probably can figure out where I live), and the bars are lined with drunks and none of them are Muslims. I work with a Muslim man and he as well as his wife were both chaste their entire lives, in the West this is unheard of now. Our fruit is rotten and I have absolutely no retort when contronted with Jesus own words.

 

[Eden]

You are making the mistake that Muslims typically do of characterizing all Western women as Christian. Why is this rampant in the West? Because God gave us free will and we have the right to exercise it in the West. God does not force us to believe in Him and follow Him. Look to the example of those who did follow Christ - the saints - for illustrations of the fruits Christianity brings.

We have free-will to reject the teachings of Christ regarding purity and certainly women who are sleeping with multiple men are not following the teachings of Christ. So, Christianity is not the problem, lack of Christianity is.

Look at the teachings about women in Islam and tell me they respect a woman’t purity:

A Woman’s Status:

• Islam teaches that men are superior to women." Surah 2:228
• Islam teaches that women have half the rights of men:
• In court witness Surah 2:282
• In inheritance Surah 4:11
• Islam considers the wife a possession.* “Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things they covet: women and sons, heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses…”* Surah 3:14
• Islam instructs women to veil themselves always when they are outside their homes"* and say to the believing women…that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty"Surah 24:31*
• Mohammed teaches that women are lacking in mind and religion “I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than women” Al Bukhary vol. 2:541
• Muhammed teaches that women are a bad omen. “Bad omen is in the women, the house and the horse” Al Bukhary vol. 7:30
• Mohammed teaches that women are harmful to men “After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women” Al Bukhary vol.7:33
  Marriage:
• Islam allows polygamy: A man may marry up to four wives at one time. "Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four… " Surah 4:3
• A man can divorce his wife by oral announcement, the wife has no such right. “Divorce is permissible twice” Surah 2:229
• When a husband has pronounced divorce three times on his wife, she then may not lawfully remarry her husband until she has married and been divorced by another man (including having sexual intercourse with him). “…So if a husband divorces his wife he cannot after that, remarry her until after she has married another husband, and he has divorced her” Surah 2:230
• Islam teaches that a wife is subject to punishment by her husband, beating a wife or abstaining from sexual relations with her is allowed. "As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them… " Surah 4:34
  Sex Life

Islam considers the wife a sex object. "your wives are as a tilth (a field to be ploughed) unto you, so approach your tilth when or how ye will " Surah 2:223 (“How” includes rape, Muhammed gave the example by raping one of his wives)

As a woman, I praise God I was not born into Islam.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Eden,

We can’t on the one hand credit Christianity for building the free West, and on the other rail that the rampant immorality in our free societies in the US and Europe has nothing to do with our Christian heritage. We built this monster, and we are living in it. We also can’t deny that our country is 75% Christian and leads the world in abortions, pornography production, per capita imprisonment, drug abuse, sex crimes, murder etc…

These are just thoughts off the top of my head, but honestly in the Christian lands I see little to no fruit at all. And I am at a total loss how to combat this argumet. Like I said I live amongst many Muslims in Brooklyn and I can see that the way they conduct themselves is so far above the local Christians that it really has me thinking about Christ’s word “ye shall know them by their fruit”. I see so much more fruit from the Muslim community here than the Christian community. I have no comeback essentially, none at all.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Reasons like the one’s you’ve posted above Saint_Michael lead me to believe that God is allowing our interaction with Muslims specifically for the reason of jolting our Christian sense back to God’s reality.

In other words, in these senses anyway, Muslims can (and do) remind us of some aspects of Christianity that we here in the west seem to have largely forgotten.

Bear in mind, however, I would never consider these reasons as valid reasons to convert to Islam. To trade the salvation of the Son of God for a faithful wife is not worth the sacrifice by any comparison-- I wouldn’t trade the salvation of the Son of God for anything.

In addition to this, the Islamic ideal marriage only works here in the west precisely because the west does not interfere on the individual man and womans right to express their love in marriage freely-- which is something which comes from Christian virtues and not Islamic ones.

Ironically, when you point out these examples of Islamic marriage, you are pointing out excellent examples of John Paul II’s theology of the body. And these kinds of Islamic marriages in the west can open our eyes to the beauty and grandeur of an authentic Catholic understanding of sex when one divorces from their Muslim understanding the negative connotations about women as a sex-idol most likely bound to hell.

In other words, it seems to me that the reason why these Islamic marriages work so well here in the west is precisely because of the Christian virtues of freedom and fidelity-- something which could appear radically different if this marriage were expressed around the Arab world.

 

[cestusdei]

If a woman is raped she must have 4 witness who actually saw the act to testify. Otherwise she is confessing to adultery. The penalty for that is death. There are pics on the web of women being buried up to their necks and stoned to death. So on the surface family life seems great, but the cost is a willingness to kill ones wife or daughter for “dishonoring” the family. Sure the rape statistics must seem low, but that’s because they kill the victims. I read where a Muslim woman envied Christian wives. They were far more secure and the man couldn’t just divorce the woman at will. She thought the Christian vision of marriage and family were much superior to Islam.

 

[cestusdei]

If a woman is raped she must have 4 witness who actually saw the act to testify. Otherwise she is confessing to adultery. The penalty for that is death. There are pics on the web of women being buried up to their necks and stoned to death. So on the surface family life seems great, but the cost is a willingness to kill ones wife or daughter for “dishonoring” the family. Sure the rape statistics must seem low, but that’s because they kill the victims. I read where a Muslim woman envied Christian wives. They were far more secure and the man couldn’t just divorce the woman at will. She thought the Christian vision of marriage and family were much superior to Islam. Also the fact that if a child leaves Islam they are killed does tend to keep them in the fold.

 

[inJESUS]

"The number one benefit of the muslim way, in my eyes, is the fact that moslim women seem to be way more chaste than Christian women or unbelievers.

 

[Genesis315]

[Fact is, you and the guy are giving the Islamic point of view : West= Christians. This is what Muslims are taught and it can’t be any further from reality. You will find “Christians” and Christians in the West. Not everyone called Jennifer is a Christian.

You beat me to it. Many people in the west may express a vague belief in God and Jesus when asked, but they live according to the materialist religion. The divorce rate and premarital sex rate among Catholics who desire to follow Church teaching is miniscule as well–plus Catholics tend to be more charity oriented than Muslims.

The contrast in the OP is Islam versus materialism. Contrast actual Catholicism versus Islam and see what happens then
[/quote]

 

[johnsummers]

Eden,

We can’t on the one hand credit Christianity for building the free West, and on the other rail that the rampant immorality in our free societies in the US and Europe has nothing to do with our Christian heritage. We built this monster, and we are living in it. We also can’t deny that our country is 75% Christian and leads the world in abortions, pornography production, per capita imprisonment, drug abuse, sex crimes, murder etc…

These are just thoughts off the top of my head, but honestly in the Christian lands I see little to no fruit at all. And I am at a total loss how to combat this argumet. Like I said I live amongst many Muslims in Brooklyn and I can see that the way they conduct themselves is so far above the local Christians that it really has me thinking about Christ’s word “ye shall know them by their fruit”. I see so much more fruit from the Muslim community here than the Christian community. I have no comeback essentially, none at all.

 

[johnsummers]

johnsummers:
It facinates me that this is only about sex. What about murder, freedom of worship, which the Moslems do not permit in their countries, and their general treatment of women. Is sex the only measuring stick that you are using???

 

[Seeks_God]

I think the 75% of Americans are Christian is an interesting statistic as well… It’s important to point out that it is selfidentified. I know several people who identify themselves as Catholic, BUT support abortion, the death-penalty, birth-control, etc, etc. Self-identification is really moot, when you are more focused, as mentioned above, on the secular part of society and not upon the spiritual part of society…

Just a thought or two…

SG

 

[exoflare]

I think the 75% of Americans are Christian is an interesting statistic as well… It’s important to point out that it is selfidentified. I know several people who identify themselves as Catholic, BUT support abortion, the death-penalty, birth-control, etc, etc. Self-identification is really moot, when you are more focused, as mentioned above, on the secular part of society and not upon the spiritual part of society…

Just a thought or two…

SG

Yeah and a quarter of the US is supposed to be “Catholic” too…

 

[Eileen_T]

G K Chesterton said:

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.”

Matthew 7: 21-23 tells us:

*Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. *There is more to being a Christian than claiming to be one.

It is harder to be a Christian today in Western society than it has been since the early centuries following Christ. And it is getting harder all the time. But Jesus never promised us it would be easy.

To convert to a religion because you want a chaste wife is crazy. I once counselled a young Moslem girl who was scared she was pregnant. She told me her parents would throw her out of the family and totally disown her.

When the test came back negative, she asked for a prescription of oral contraceptives. It is not Christianity or Islam that makes a female chaste or unchaste, it is what is in their heart.

My 20 year old is a virgin and wants the man she one day marries to also be a virgin. No double standards.

 

[Damascus]

Personally OP I am very surprised you are not getting a ton of Orthodox Catholic women posting here objecting to this premise.

Is this a numbers game for the guy posting on that site?

He is looking at the vocation of marriage all wrong. He wants his “dream wife” that he feels is statistically harder to find in the Catholic pool of women.

Maybe its worth the time to find the right woman who also shares your love of the Risen Lord? Maybe if the two of you instruct your children in the faith and set an example for them they wont leave the faith?

Oh, that would require some effort! A little elbow grease. This guy wants it to be a given it will all work out without any struggle on his part!

What about him? Is he the “dream husband” for a good orthodox Catholic woman? Or is this all about his fear of getting a bad apple?

OR is he full of it?

 

[Lance]

What do I say to the guy, I've also had the same thoughts (not converting to Islam though).  How is our way the right way when the fruit we bear is rotten?

I think your figure of 90-95% is very high. I don’t believe it is anywhere near that. What do you think the Muslim % is in the US and Europe where they are not going to be killed for pre-marital sex? You know what they say when you assume, you make an *** of you and me.

 

[Saint_Michael]

I think your figure of 90-95% is very high. I don’t believe it is anywhere near that. What do you think the Muslim % is in the US and Europe where they are not going to be killed for pre-marital sex? You know what they say when you assume, you make an *** of you and me.

Actually I thought my 90% figure was very low. I don’t know one Christian who was a virgin by marriage. I’ve never met one, or even heard of one.

A good starting point is simple statistics taken in High Schools and colleges, and extrapolating. I think 1/3rd of our children aren’t virgins by 14.

I think we can all agree that Muslim societies are not plagued as badly as western societies with fornication, drunkeness etc… If you want to argue those points don’t bother, I have no interest in arguing with someone who can’t accept established fact.

Argue the quotes logic, not his assumptions, because that is where he stands, I can’t tell him his assumptions are wrong, when I know darn well they aren’t. The site is islamicity BTW.

 

[Damascus]

I think your figure of 90-95% is very high. I don’t believe it is anywhere near that. What do you think the Muslim % is in the US and Europe where they are not going to be killed for pre-marital sex? You know what they say when you assume, you make an *** of you and me.

Lance,

You must realize that once someone wants to be an apostate ----

They will come up with all kinds of reasons to rationalize it.

The problem is, they are not able to be honest about the fact that they left a long time ago.

They feel the need to go out punching.