Released from Purgatory

[Holland]

Do we have any way of knowing when the souls we pray for in Purgatory are released to go to Heaven?Someone asked me this and I didn’t have a clue what the answer might be. Part 2 of this question is, if you are praying for someone who might already be in Heaven what happens to the prayers?

 

[wjp984]

I can at least answer part 2 of your question. If the person you are praying for is already in Heaven then they are a saint and therefore can intercede for you just like any other saint. Instead of the prayers being used for themselves they will redirect the prayers for something that is necessary. This may be something you need in your life or anyone else. The prayers actually will be for the greater good if the person is already in Heaven.

In regards to part one if your question I would think of it as related to part two. You may not know whether the person is still in Purgatory but you can be assured that your prayers will either be of great benefit to them if they are in Purgatory or of great benefit to yourself or others if they are in Heaven interceding for you and others.

 

[Nevim]

Do we have any way of knowing when the souls we pray for in Purgatory are released to go to Heaven?Someone asked me this and I didn’t have a clue what the answer might be. Part 2 of this question is, if you are praying for someone who might already be in Heaven what happens to the prayers?

There is no such place as purgatory, it is completely unscriptural.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

With respect, Nevim, please say, “I do not believe there is such a place. . .” etc.

This is a Catholic forum. Purgatory is a Catholic belief.

Forum rules require non Catholics to be ‘respectful of Catholic teaching’.

Presenting your statement on this thread topic the way you did is not really respectful of our Catholic faith. I hope you understand this.

God bless.

 

[Nevim]

I can at least answer part 2 of your question. If the person you are praying for is already in Heaven then they are a saint and therefore can intercede for you just like any other saint.

Mind telling me how you would make that determination ? PLease be specific.

Instead of the prayers being used for themselves they will redirect the prayers for something that is necessary. This may be something you need in your life or anyone else. The prayers actually will be for the greater good if the person is already in Heaven.

Here again present your evidence. Where can I find this in Scripture?

In regards to part one if your question I would think of it as related to part two. You may not know whether the person is still in Purgatory but you can be assured that your prayers will either be of great benefit to them if they are in Purgatory or of great benefit to yourself or others if they are in Heaven interceding for you and others.

The plain truth is nobody knows where another goes after they die. That’s up to God not man,but it certianly not a purgatory.
NAS Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,…

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus said “they will not get out of that prison until they have paid the final penny”.

It is in the scriptures.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Please, Nevim, remember forum rules. That you might not accept Maccabees as scriptural, in fact that you might not accept Sacred Tradition as equal to, and complementary to, Sacred Scripture does not mean that we as Catholics are bound to your view.

 

[Nevim]

With respect, Nevim, please say, “I do not believe there is such a place. . .” etc.

This is a Catholic forum. Purgatory is a Catholic belief.

With respect Tantum I follow the Scripture and what it teaches. If you can show me where the Word of God teaches purgatory I’ll listen to whatever you might suggest. The most important thing in life and eternity is God’s truth–don’t you agree?

 

[Nevim]

Please, Nevim, remember forum rules. That you might not accept Maccabees as scriptural, in fact that you might not accept Sacred Tradition as equal to, and complementary to, Sacred Scripture does not mean that we as Catholics are bound to your view.

I’d only be too happy to discuss Maccabees.

 

[Nevim]

Jesus said “they will not get out of that prison until they have paid the final penny”.

It is in the scriptures.

No body can pay the price for his or her sin, that’s what Y’shua ( Jesus) did.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

There are plenty of places in Scriptures which teach Purgatory. Here is a link to one tract from right here in the library at CA:

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

and another

catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

Enjoy your reading.

 

[Flying_Bison]

Nevim you are very misunderstood

1st to make the argument from scripture, you must prove that scripture is the only rule of faith. Scripture doesn’t say that, so your are in fact unbiblical with all your comments.

2nd Scripture is very explicit about purgatory, but since you are far removed from ancient Judaism you can’t understand the words you read.
Purgatory is only Purification after death for those who are not completely pure so that they can be clean to enter heaven, it invovles pain, and we can pray for those in purgatory. ALL in purgatory will go to heaven, but must be purified to be clean before God. THAT IS IT.

“I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).
“nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven” (Rev. 21:27)
“will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32),
“He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15).
“for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14)

Jews celebrated the Kaddish, which is a prayer for purification after death. To ancient Jews, these passage would had made perfect sense. Jesus was a Jew and spoke to Jews. He did not speak directly to 21st century westerners. So, to understand Jesus, one must understand Judaism. In this contex, purgatory is pretty explicit in scripture.

3rd Purgatory was talked about in christian writtings as early are the 2nd century. One finds absolutely NO refute of this pricipal. One can find many refutes for the heresies of the day such as gnosticism, arianism etc. Why not purgatory? Well, the most likely explaination is it was a belief of the earliest christians who were taught by the disciples and their direct students.

 

[puzzleannie]

there is also a forum rule against hijacking a thread. Those of you who wish to debate purgatory should participate in one of the on-going discussion threads, or start a new one. It is also profitable to first visit the CA homepage and read the articles on the various topics for background then join discussion here.

 

[Holland]

I can at least answer part 2 of your question. If the person you are praying for is already in Heaven then they are a saint and therefore can intercede for you just like any other saint. Instead of the prayers being used for themselves they will redirect the prayers for something that is necessary. This may be something you need in your life or anyone else. The prayers actually will be for the greater good if the person is already in Heaven.

In regards to part one if your question I would think of it as related to part two. You may not know whether the person is still in Purgatory but you can be assured that your prayers will either be of great benefit to them if they are in Purgatory or of great benefit to yourself or others if they are in Heaven interceding for you and others.

Thanks for the info…I like that answer. Now, if only someone would answer part one.

 

[Randy_Carson]

There is no such place as purgatory, it is completely unscriptural.

I beg to differ. Purgatory is found in the proper interpretation of the following verses:

2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; or if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come**.**

Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Now think this through…There is no sin to forgive in heaven, right? Sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and judgment is permanent. So, the world to come where sin can still be forgiven must be purgatory.

Matthew 18:23-35)
Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

Luke 16:19-31
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ "He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Jennifer_G]

There is no such place as purgatory, it is completely unscriptural.

Well, what about when you hear of a person’s ghost roaming a specific location? It’s neither Heaven nor Hell. (Even our Lutheran pastor mentioned “Purgation” once in a sermon.)

But, I think this thread should get back on topic.

I’m pretty sure when praying, you could ask that, if the person is already in Heaven, direct the prayers to someone else in need.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Jesus said “they will not get out of that prison until they have paid the final penny”.

It is in the scriptures.

Hi JJ, I thought Jesus paid in full.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, if the Church declares somebody you’ve been praying for a saint, you can be assured they’re in heaven.

Otherwise, one can hope. As another poster said, any prayers said for a person are never ‘wasted’.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I agree this thread should get back on topic. How does the person on earth know when someone has been relaeased to go to heaven?

Rabbinic Views.

The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: “In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: ‘I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried’ [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, ‘He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again’” (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: “He who is ‘plenteous in mercy’ [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna” (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, “Ag. Tan.” i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.

Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: “From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched”; the former interpreting the words “from one new moon to another” to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words “from one Sabbath to another,” in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).

The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).

History of Purgatory.

The idea of the purging fire through which the soul has to pass is found in the Zend-Avesta (“Bundahis,” xxx. 20): “All men will pass into the melted metal and become pure; to the righteous it will seem as though he walks through warm milk” (comp. Enoch, lii. 6-7, lxvii. 6-7). The Church Fathers developed the idea of the “ignis purgatorius” into a dogma according to which all souls, including those of the righteous who remain unscathed, have to pass the purgatory (Origen on Ps. xxxvii., Homily 3; Lactantius, “Divinæ Institutiones,” vii. 21, 4-7; Jerome on Ps. cxviii., Sermon 20; Commodianus, “Instructiones,” ii. 2, 9); hence prayers and offerings for the souls in purgatory were instituted (Tertullian, “De Corona Militis,” 3-4; “De Monogamia,” 10; “Exhortatio Castitatis,” 11; Augustine, “Enchiridion ad Lauram,” 67-69, 109; Gregory I., “Dialogi,” iv. 57). Hence also arose in the Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish

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