Released from Purgatory

[SoonerServant]

To the first part of the question: Yes, you will receive a confirmation e-mail.

And for the second part: That’s what is filling up blackholes in space.

 

[M_Oliver]

There is no such place as purgatory, it is completely unscriptural.

Correct. It is a borrowed theory from the Egyptian pagan’s. Study what the ancient Egyptians taught about life after death and you find the purgatory theory…

 

[SoonerServant]

Correct. It is a borrowed theory from the Egyptian pagan’s. Study what the ancient Egyptians taught about life after death and you find the purgatory theory…

Actually, there was a place of holding in the OT, but no purgatory.(place of purging) The place of holding was referred to as “paradise” or “Abraham’s bossom” This is where Gods ppl were held until a most perfect sacrifice could be made to redeem them.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I think, Holland, that we have answered the question, so far as it can be answered, parts 1 and 2. Part 1: No, there is really no way to know when a soul in purgatory is released to heaven. (Unless, as I said, the Church declares him/her a saint. Then usually the date of death becomes his/her feast day). I also discount private revelation (unless the church deems the revelations worthy of belief, and even then you are not bound to believe them).

Part 2: If you are praying for someone in purgatory, and they are already in heaven, one of two things: Either God will apply the prayers retroactively (He is out, so to speak, of time itself)–IOW, through the prayers you are praying on April 25, 2007, even if your friend died March 1, 2007, those prayers have already ‘had’ their effect. Or else He will apply those prayers ‘through’ your friend. For example, suppose your friend, now in heavenly bliss, has the opportunity to ask God to apply those prayers to a poor soul with no one to pray for him or her. God will then apply those prayers to that soul and thus you and your friend will have assisted another soul–what a joy!

Now. . .will somebody please close this thread and open up another on the subject of purgatory itself?? Which is a completely different topic from the OP??

 

[Techno2000]

Excerpt From:THE
DOLOROUS
(SORROWFUL)
PASSION OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST

FROM THE MEDITATIONS OF

ANNE CATHERINE EMMERICH

When Jesus entered in triumph the demons dispersed, crying out at the same time, ‘What is there between thee and us? What art thou come to do here? Wilt thou crucify us likewise?’ The angels hunted them away, having first chained them. The poor souls confined in this place had only a slight presentiment and vague idea of the presence of Jesus; but the moment he told them that it was he himself, they burst out into acclamations of joy, and welcomed him with hymns of rapture and delight. The soul of our Lord then wended its way to the right, towards that part which really constituted Limbo; and there he met the soul of the good thief which angels were carrying to Abraham’s bosom, as also that of the bad thief being dragged by demons into Hell. Our Lord addressed a few words to both, and then entered Abraham’s bosom, accompanied by numerous angels and holy souls, and also by those demons who had been chained and expelled from the compartment.
jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm#CHAPTER%20LIX

 

[wjp984]

Nevim, while your comments are respected you are being very disrespectful. I have never e-mailed or messaged a moderator in regards to another poster but I am very tempted to report you. The original poster asked a question and wanted an answer or opinion from the Catholic faith, which believes in Purgatory. If you have a disagreement about Purgatory and its existence start your own thread and we can discuss this there. Now the original poster instead of getting an answer, although thankfully I got to this thread before you did, has to read through a bunch of garbage as well as hopefully getting her desired answer. Show some respect and follow the forum rules and even if it were not a rule out of common courtesy you should have started your own thread. Now you might say you want to inform the original poster of your viewpoiont. That is fine I suppose but you should be respectful and say how you are not Catholic but in your opinion Purgatory does not exist and also say how you don’t want to hijack the thread and if people are interested they can look at your other thread involving the subject. Do not start an argument in an inappropiate place as you have done.

 

[Nevim]

There are plenty of places in Scriptures which teach Purgatory. Here is a link to one tract from right here in the library at CA:

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

and another

catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

Enjoy your reading.

Tantum, I have read all the arguements for purgatory, however none of them are Biblical. Pick anyone of them and I’ll be glad to discuss this with anyone here

 

[Nevim]

Nevim, while your comments are respected you are being very disrespectful. I have never e-mailed or messaged a moderator in regards to another poster but I am very tempted to report you. The original poster asked a question and wanted an answer or opinion from the Catholic faith, which believes in Purgatory. If you have a disagreement about Purgatory and its existence start your own thread and we can discuss this there. Now the original poster instead of getting an answer, although thankfully I got to this thread before you did, has to read through a bunch of garbage as well as hopefully getting her desired answer. Show some respect and follow the forum rules and even if it were not a rule out of common courtesy you should have started your own thread. Now you might say you want to inform the original poster of your viewpoiont. That is fine I suppose but you should be respectful and say how you are not Catholic but in your opinion Purgatory does not exist and also say how you don’t want to hijack the thread and if people are interested they can look at your other thread involving the subject. Do not start an argument in an inappropiate place as you have done.

Is this an open discussion board or not ? If it isn’t then please say so. As far as being “disrespectful” you are in error, in fact I am offended that you would even accuse me of that.

 

[Cari]

Nevim, while your comments are respected you are being very disrespectful. I have never e-mailed or messaged a moderator in regards to another poster but I am very tempted to report you. Do not start an argument in an inappropiate place as you have done.

Please do report him. He’s already been issued an infraction in another thread and had his post edited by the mod.

Of course, since the OP (hopefully) has had the question answered, this thread should be shut down soon, and that will be that.

Nevim, you COULD start your own thread. I notice that it would be the first one you’ve begun. Maybe time to get your feet wet.

 

[Nevim]

Nevim you are very misunderstood

1st to make the argument from scripture, you must prove that scripture is the only rule of faith. Scripture doesn’t say that, so your are in fact unbiblical with all your comments.

Scripture is the only rule of faith that’s why it’s scripture ! In fact to make an arguement against that show me where G-d states something other then His Word is to be followed.

2nd Scripture is very explicit about purgatory, but since you are far removed from ancient Judaism you can’t understand the words you read.

That isn’t much help here is why. You haven’t offered where in Scripture it’s EXPLICT. I’m only to willing to discuss any scripture you wish to you to support your postion, however no where in Scripture is purgatory explictly taught.

Purgatory is only Purification after death for those who are not completely pure so that they can be clean to enter heaven, it invovles pain, and we can pray for those in purgatory. ALL in purgatory will go to heaven, but must be purified to be clean before God. THAT IS IT.

The Biblical explictly states the opposite. Re Hebrews chp 9

NAS Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,. The blood of Y’shua ( Jesus) is what purifies us from our sins, nothing else.

“I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).

Which has nothing to do with purgatory. And frankly none of us can possibly pay the price for our own sins, the reason that Jesus came in the first place.

“nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven” (Rev. 21:27)

NAS Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, athe faithful witness, the bfirst-born of the dead, and the cruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us, and released us from our sins by His blood, We are washed in the blood of the Lamb therefore those that are born again believers are clean by His blood and not on our own.

“will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32),

Which is a reference to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not purgatory.

“He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15).

Again purgatory is not the context of this Scripture. It clearly states that someones WORKS will be tested. It’s not about the burning of men but the testing of ones works.

“for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14)

Kindly explain what this has to do with purgatory.

Jews celebrated the Kaddish, which is a prayer for purification after death. To ancient Jews, these passage would had made perfect sense. Jesus was a Jew and spoke to Jews. He did not speak directly to 21st century westerners. So, to understand Jesus, one must understand Judaism. In this contex, purgatory is pretty explicit in scripture.

We say the Kaddish every Sabbath, both in Hebrew and English and it has nothing to do with purgatory or a purification after death. Would you like me to quote it for you? And btw being a Messianic Jew believe me I understand Judaism.

3rd Purgatory was talked about in christian writtings as early are the 2nd century. One finds absolutely NO refute of this pricipal. One can find many refutes for the heresies of the day such as gnosticism, arianism etc. Why not purgatory? Well, the most likely explaination is it was a belief of the earliest christians who were taught by the disciples and their direct students.

Fact is it wasn’t till the 3rd century it was even discussed and at that it took them until the 14th century make it dogma. Why ? Because it is no where found in Scripture.

 

[Nevim]

Please do report him. He’s already been issued an infraction in another thread and had his post edited by the mod.

Well report me, ban me whatever you wish, however the truth of God be told there is no purgatory. I look to please God not men, who do you look to please ?

 

[blessedtoo]

Do we have any way of knowing when the souls we pray for in Purgatory are released to go to Heaven?Someone asked me this and I didn’t have a clue what the answer might be. Part 2 of this question is, if you are praying for someone who might already be in Heaven what happens to the prayers?

Holland,
A very dear friend of mine died a hero on September 11th. Immediately after, I was wracked with sorrow for his soul because he had lived a life contrary to the faith into which he had been baptised and raised. I prayed relentlesslely for him, for years, all the while still gripped with grief each time I thought of him never beholding the face of God. Now this is just my personal little testimony but sometime around the third anniversary of his death, I realized I was forgetting my prayers for him. Upon closer reflection, I also realized I had stopped obsessiong about “where” his soul was. When I did pray for him, I was not wracked with anguish but rather filled with peace and hope. Eventually, other intentions began to creep back onto my prayer list and often a few months would go by before I realized I hadn’t thought of his “location” during that time. For me, this peace was a gift from God. Obviously, I still don’t know exactly the state of my beloved friend’s soul, but I must trust in God’s mercy and love and take comfort from the calm He has blessed me with.

 

[Spirithound]

Thanks for the info…I like that answer. Now, if only someone would answer part one.

Divine revelation Either private, or through the Church’s discernment that the person is a Saint.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Closed pending Moderator review.

 

[Church_Militant]

We say the Kaddish every Sabbath, both in Hebrew and English and it has nothing to do with purgatory or a purification after death. Would you like me to quote it for you? And btw being a Messianic Jew believe me I understand Judaism.

Fact is it wasn’t till the 3rd century it was even discussed and at that it took them until the 14th century make it dogma. Why ? Because it is no where found in Scripture. 1) Ask any faithfully practicing Jew. There is no such thing as a Messianic Jew. In fact, most of my orthodox Jewish friends are offended by the term.

2)This from a Jewish member of this forum.

"Hi all!

Our prayer, the Mourner’s Kaddish, is for the benefit of the soul of the deceased & is believed to ease the spiritual status of the deceased’s soul as it goes through whatever trials & tribulations it may be subject to. Yes, we do believe in something akin to the Roman Catholic notion of Purgatory & thus saying the Mourner’s Kaddish would be similar to the Roman Catholic idea of praying for the souls in Purgatory.

Look at ou.org/yerushalayim/kadish.htm#Meaning

.

The text there is the (5 clause) Mourner’s Kaddish in Hebrew, transliterated English & English (you can also listen to it in RealAudio).

As I understand it, a soul that has sinned in this world has to pay for its actions/inactions in the next world. We do not automatically & necessarily divide souls into the entirely righteous who will therefore enjoy enternal bliss and the entirely evil who will therefore suffer eternal damnation. The degrees in between are infinite & we believe that God rewards/punishes each soul according to its good/not good actions. As I said, the recitation of the Kaddish prayer is believed to benefit the soul of the deceased as it goes through whatever trials and tribulations it has to endure in the next world.

In addition to the aforementioned Kaddish prayer (which is usually said by a son for a departed parent for 11 months after the day of burial, but which can also be said for 30 days for a spouse, child or sibling, particularly if none of these have children to say the Kaddish; the Kaddish is also recited on the anniversary of the burial), there are the Yizkor (literally: “He will remember”) and E-l Maleh Rahamim (literally: “God Full of Mercy”) prayers (see ou.org/yerushalayim/yizkor/) which are recited 4 times a year on Yom Kippur, the last day of Passover, Shavuot and Shemini Atzeret (see jewfaq.org/toc.htm for links to all of these holydays).

I submit the following excerpt (from jewfaq.org/death.htm):

In addition to the Kaddish. it is believed that the recitation of the Yizkor and E-l Maleh Rahamim prayers are beneficial to the soul of the departed. On the anniversary of the burial, it is common to study some chapter of the Talmud or the Tanakh (what we call what Christians call the “Old Testament”), read a selection of Psalms, give to charity, etc. in honor/memory of the departed. This is also believed to be beneficial."Do our Jewish friends call it “Purgatory”? No.

Do they believe in something very similar to what we call “Purgatory”? Yes they do.

(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

Is there a Biblical basis for both our own beliefs? Yes indeed.
There is ample evidence that the Bible implicitly teaches a Purgatory.

Begin with Matthew 12:32, which says, “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Now think this through…There is no sin to forgive in heaven, right? Sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and permanent. So…Implicit “purgatory”

1st Corinthians 3:15 which says, “If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” Again this cannot refer to heaven or hell for the same reasons as above. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.

1st Peter 3:18-20 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.”

and 1st Peter 4:6 which says, “For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit” Note that it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them. The thing that is clear (and important…) is that there is more than just Heaven and Hell in the New Testament.

2nd Maccabees 12:44-46 which says, "44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. "
The same reasons apply here as to the first passages I gave you…

Purgatory? Sure it’s in the Bible

 

[Holland]

I now know what people are talking about when they say their thread was hijacked. I want to thank everyone for answering my questions. Thanks a bunch!

 

[wjp984]

Please do report him. He’s already been issued an infraction in another thread and had his post edited by the mod.

Of course, since the OP (hopefully) has had the question answered, this thread should be shut down soon, and that will be that.

Nevim, you COULD start your own thread. I notice that it would be the first one you’ve begun. Maybe time to get your feet wet.

I didn’t nor would I report anyone. However, I will state my opinion that I thought what he did was unacceptable and my saying that was a fair warning that he should tone it down a bit or start his own thread. Apparently he didn’t listen and he got what he deserved. There have been a few times where I have broken a forum rule myself and have been kindly warned. The difference is even if I disagree and make my opinion known, I apologize and move on.

 

[Church_Militant]

I didn’t nor would I report anyone. However, I will state my opinion that I thought what he did was unacceptable and my saying that was a fair warning that he should tone it down a bit or start his own thread. Apparently he didn’t listen and he got what he deserved. There have been a few times where I have broken a forum rule myself and have been kindly warned. The difference is even if I disagree and make my opinion known, I apologize and move on.

Looks like someone did. (Wasn’t me BTW)

I just look at it this way. When you are guest in someone’s home you don’t badmouth their religion and defy them to throw you out and tell you never to return. That’s not rocket science, it’s common courtesy (or lack thereof) and common sense.

I do hope that my posts on purgatory were of some help to the OP.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[wjp984]

well while I won’t report I will state how I think the poster is wrong and then others like yourself agree and then the moderators can see the comments in the thread. People are more than welcome to argue with the Catholic faith and state their opposing viewpoints and opinions but they need to do it in the appopiate place and not try to sabatage someone else’s thread.