Relics and basilicas etc

[ajecphotos]

Thinking quite a bit on relics of saints and Basilicas built in their honour. Visited quite a few lately where the Basilica was built in memory of a certain saint and inside they had numerous chapels with relics on show.

Now, my questions are;

Is it right to venerate in this way by spending vast amounts of money (millions) by building a Basilica to an individual saint? I know it will ‘draw the crowds’ but i just cant get over the fact that these ‘churches’ are built in honour of a saint when to me, it is ‘God’ that should have 100% of our attention.

I went to one the other day of St John Paul and it was massive! Millions spent on it in his honour. Masses of pictures of ‘him’ all over the place! Everywhere you looked there were massive images of St John Paul! Where was Jesus?

Then, on display at ever chapel in this massive basilica was a relic of St John Paul where everyone was keeling and kissing them! Bowing down to them etc. Surely that is not right?

Shouldnt Jesus be given our 100% attention / veneration?

I have kissed some relics but i am against that now. I suddenly realise how wrong, for me, that is. I want to worship God. I dont want anyone else to come before God.

Not wanting to start a war about my thoughts just wanted to know what others thought on the subject?

I love the saints and think it is great to ask for their intercession but i am going against the amount of veneration that is passed their way. The kissing of relics for me just seems so wrong now after thinking about it. Am i mad to think that?

 

[dmar198]

Thinking quite a bit on relics of saints and Basilicas built in their honour. Visited quite a few lately where the Basilica was built in memory of a certain saint and inside they had numerous chapels with relics on show.

Now, my questions are;

Is it right to venerate in this way by spending vast amounts of money (millions) by building a Basilica to an individual saint? I know it will ‘draw the crowds’ but i just cant get over the fact that these ‘churches’ are built in honour of a saint when to me, it is ‘God’ that should have 100% of our attention.

St. Augustine answered a similar question in his day in his books about the heretic Faustus. Faustus is mainly remembered because he thought the Catholic Church was wrong for accepting the Old Testament. But he also said it was wrong for Catholics to have ceremonies in honor of our martyrs and their relics, and to consecrate altars in their honor. Here is how St. Augustine answered him: [T]he accusation of Faustus [is] that we worship [the martyrs] instead of idols… I should not care to answer such a charge, were it not for the sake of showing how Faustus, in his desire to cast reproach on us…has fallen heedlessly into a popular notion found in Pagan poetry… For in saying that we have turned the idols into martyrs, be speaks of our worshiping them with similar rites, and appeasing the shades of the departed with wine and food…

It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers. But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints’ burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to thee, O Peter! or O Paul! or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. If I were you, I would pray over those remarks by St. Augustine and see if they help you understand this better.

I went to one the other day of St John Paul and it was massive! Millions spent on it in his honour. Masses of pictures of ‘him’ all over the place! Everywhere you looked there were massive images of St John Paul! Where was Jesus?

If you were in a Catholic Church, then Jesus had a much more honored place than St. John Paul. Jesus is in the tabernacle on the high altar, ready to receive our worship and adoration. In light of that, it would be better to ask: where was St. John Paul?

I think it’s also worth pointing out that all the honor we pay to the saints ends up reaching God, except in a more magnified way. There’s no either-or here – it’s both-and. The honor we pay to the saints is only because they are God’s handiwork. By honoring the painting, we honor the painter more, and by honoring the saints, we honor the Sanctifier more. In 248 A.D. Origen explained this well when he discussed honoring the relics of the saints:

“we commit [their] bodily organs with due honors to the grave, because it is not right that the dwelling-place of the rational soul should be cast aside anywhere without honor, like the carcasses of brute beasts; and so much the more when we believe that the respect paid to the body redounds to the honor of the person who received [it] from God.” (Contra Celsus Book VIII Chapter 30)

 

[ajecphotos]

Well, it all seems idolatry to me. Its the feeling i get when i see people bowing and kissing relics and looking at the massive basilicas built in honour of some saint.

Dont get me wrong, i love the saints and do ask them to pray for me. I have kissed a few relics in my time but i am very much put off now by it all.

Surely a Church dedicated ‘only’ to God would be the very best thing? Why have massive murals and gold work / pictures plastered around these basilicas of certain saints when it is God that should have our 100% attention?

 

[Miserissima]

Veneration of relics, like any sacramental, is not required for salvation. I read in another thread (paraphrasing poorly), “you’re not required so it is laudable if you do and won’t damn you if you don’t.”

 

[ajecphotos]

Thanks.

I know we dont have to but it still seems very wrong to do so.

A local church i know has dozens or relics and they go out of their way to collect them! They have to have them and bow before them and kiss them! Its only lately that i am beginning to think this is all wrong. Its fantastic that the saints can indeed bring people closer to God but i am sure they wouldnt want us to kiss relics of them or of have dozens of pictures plastered all over the place of them.

Not ranting about it just sad that some people seem to place a saint on a higher pedestal than God!

 

[Miserissima]

Besides the Eucharist, the only tangible things of people we can be assured are in heaven (continually praising Him and interceeding for us) are relics.

I’m not sure I’d kiss one: it depends on the saint and favor, I suppose. Conversely, I would not dare to kiss the Host during adoration because that, to me, would be presumptuous and out of like in keeping with the way we worship.

I think it’s ironic that we kiss things we venerate but won’t kiss the Body of Christ, when folks think that kissing is a deeper act of devotion.

 

[dmar198]

Well, it all seems idolatry to me. Its the feeling i get when i see people bowing and kissing relics and looking at the massive basilicas built in honour of some saint.

I understand how you might feel that way if you only look at the surface but try to give those feelings a rational analysis. Bowing and kissing can be used either for worship, for veneration, or for neither, depending entirely on the intention.

When I come home from a long trip, I get down on my knees and kiss my dog’s neck when she jumps up to greet me. And no one thinks I’m worshiping her. In Genesis 33:3-4, Jacob bowed himself down seven times before his brother Esau, who he had not seen in years, and Esau embraced him and kissed him. They were not worshiping each other.

Worship is the reverence of the infinite majesty of God. It is entirely absent unless you consciously intend to offer an act of worship. When you do intend to offer worship to God, you can do it through the acts of bowing or kissing, if you want, but those are not inherently forms of worship. You can also worship God by saying a prayer, and you can worship Him by venerating His saints.

I’m saying all this because I’m trying to show you why your feelings on this matter aren’t from God. They do not correspond to a Catholic or biblical understanding of reverence and you should not base your spirituality on them. Does that make sense?

Dont get me wrong, i love the saints and do ask them to pray for me. I have kissed a few relics in my time but i am very much put off now by it all.

Surely a Church dedicated ‘only’ to God would be the very best thing? Why have massive murals and gold work / pictures plastered around these basilicas of certain saints when it is God that should have our 100% attention?

Patrick Madrid uses this analogy: imagine you walk into a king’s palace. The floor is carpeted with red plush. The walls are decorated with gold and silver, pictures of former kings, suits of armor, and works of art. Minstrels are playing their tunes for the guests, a choir is singing in another hall, and people are eating fine foods while they are there in the king’s presence. The king himself is on a richly decorated throne, in beautiful clothes that really show how hard the seamstress worked.

That king dies and his successor has a different attitude. He wants to be the only one honored. So first he takes down the pictures of former kings. Then he takes off the fine clothing because he doesn’t want people honoring the work of another person. Then he removes the carpet and the decorations and forbids the minstrels and the choirs to perform in the presence of other people, because he doesn’t want people to honor the singers when they should be honoring him. By the time you walk into his palace, it is bare, undecorated, and he is standing in an empty room with only a simple grey tunic on.

Which king has greater glory, the one who shares his honor with those around him or the one who doesn’t want you looking at anything besides himself? The point is that God’s honor is not reduced when we pay attention to His saints, it is magnified. The choirs of the angels and saints are singing in His honor. By honoring them, we honor Him more. If we think the king’s choir is the greatest choir in the world, and his minstrel the most talented, and pay great amounts of attention to them, that honor redounds to the king himself. And if we think God’s saints are the holiest people to ever have walked this earth, if we bow before them and kiss their images and relics, that honor redounds to the One Who made them.

Is that analogy any help at all?

 

[ajecphotos]

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Sorry but i disagree.

Gods house should be for him alone. It should be to worship him alone.

A cross is a reminder of what Jesus went through for us. The Stations of the cross are a reminder of what Our Lord went through, for us. Having a Basilica full of elaborate murals etc of say, St John Paul II, plastered all over every room etc with every chapel having a relic of him on display and people queuing up to kneel and kiss that relic, for me, just doesnt seem right! This is happening all over the world.

People are bowing down to reliquaries. Kissing them etc. Yes, it should be just ‘veneration’ but even then i think that it seems so wrong to even do that! God is the only one we should bow down to and worship. I dont think that people, on the whole, are worshipping the relics but i do think that the whole way in which we as catholics emphasise saints relics and the building of massive basilicas to their memory is far removed from what should be the centre of our faith.

My eyes were opened recently when i saw how much people seem to go out of their way to give ‘reverence’ to these relics and places! Its as if they have pushed Jesus to one side! Its almost like idolatry.

I know i probably got it all wrong. I am only saying that as of late this is what i am thinking is going on in the world. It seems as if people are turning away from God. It seems like they are not worshipping God as they should. Kneeling down and kissing some body part from a saint just seems like idolatry. I would much prefer if people just prayed and asked for the saints intervention. That should be enough. We shouldnt need to kneel / kiss a relic to venerate that person or ask for intervention.

I am sure that these dear saints would be very upset that we were putting them on a pedestal.

Look, if it makes you feel better for doing it then far from me to tell you to stop. Its just my view / opinion and that is worthless anyway.