relics

[Don_Ruggero]

Its true there’s no guarantee. This apostolate does seem to receive things from the monastery of the Saint though. Also there is a seal.

/…/

I thought a Catholic website asking for a donation is different and isnt selling, but I guess there may be misinformation out there and owners of the websites may have been told its ok. I need to go with what my priest said though and I believe him. In the future if I want a relic I’d only write to a monastery maybe and ask for one for free, or travel and make my own third class relics lol I thought it was ok.to get them for donations from Catholic apostolate’s but I guess with this you never know, I just want to obtain them without donations now that I learned all this. I’ll ask my priest about what happens if they ask for a donation ONLY for shipping

There is a great deal of supposition and speculation in this thread, which is actually entirely incorrect

There is also even a failure to use correctly the most basic vocabulary and that only further compounds the muddling of the issues

For that, then, to be put on a website called “Catholic Answers” where the post remains archived and forever searchable by internet search engines is a gross disservice

1. In your first post, you speak of “a donation to cover the cost of the reliquary for example”. The reliquary is to a relic what the ostensorium is to exposition of the Blessed Sacrament…one purchases a reliquary just as one purchases a monstrance. Even the theca, which is the case in which the relic is sealed under wax imprint, is an item manufactured that is bought and sold like a chalice or ciborium. One can have theca made of more or less precious metals and various artistic effort, more or less simple. As for the reliquary which displays the theca, these can range from less than a hundred dollars to thousands of dollars

These are the most basic of principles…understanding what is sold and what is bought and what is not. Whether I am buying a theca or a reliquary or a monstrance or a chalice, I am purchasing an object that will be used regarding worship

1. The article you cite is, at best, poorly written. It manages to confuse more than it clarifies with its reference, for example, to a canonist who offers a thought before saying the matter really rests with moral theologians (!) I do not see it as my task here to critique the article beyond saying that if you are endeavouring to use it as any sort of a guide, you will end up poorly served indeed

I will say, having worked with relics for years, I would be very dubious of someone who gives only part of his name, presenting himself as the possessor of a “spare habit” that he came to be given. Religious do not receive wardrobes full of habits. The Carmel of Lisieux had meticulously accounted even for Therese’s hair, cut when she received the Habit…I saw it with my own eyes

1. It seems to be that your methodology for a “bit of research” is very ill considered. If you have an issue with whatever this apostolate is, which we don’t know and therefore can offer no constructive comment, why do you not seek counsel of the chancery of the diocese where the apostolate is based, for example? That would be a proper way of proceeding
2. In the 1990s, the Holy See expressed that first class relics should not, normally, be in the possession of the laity for the reason that you are manifesting – is one accepts this great entrustment of the Church of possessing a relic, one needs understand the nature of the responsibility…and all that surrounds it
3. In your post #`14, you speak of obtained relics without any donation. Over the decades of my priesthood, especially when I was in one assignment, I assisted many times with the procurement of relics for, typically, a parish. This could involve either the Roman Vicariato or the Curia Generalizia of one of the Orders or Congregations. There was always a donation

These things do not come into being by magic. It involves a multi-step process from the canonical exhumation through a long process to a relic being presented, with authenticating documentation, to one qualified to receive it for a purpose. The donation helps to cover all the incurred expenses. If the one procuring was from the first world or at least had the capacity, they would make a larger gift. If they were from a missionary country, the donation could be small

Do you not know and do you not understand that the relics, as they are presented to the faithful in churches and shrines for their devotion or as they are contained in the altars where Masses are said, are largely the work of cloistered nuns who have been given that work by the Holy See? It is part of their livelihood as well as their mission

Bishops (and priests), who are recipients of donations, understand that in turn this work, made possible by these Religious, relies upon donations to sustain the Religious. If one is going to the place where the relic is to be assembled, one could bring one’s own theca, for example. Otherwise, the Religious, who have themselves bought it/them, would supply it. That expense, in justice, has to be reimbursed to them.

For bishops and priests who have been involved with this, it is not seen as a commercial transaction anymore than we receive a Mass stipend as though the person were buying or paying for a Mass. I am frankly horrified therefore by the attitude you evidence

Finally, as a priest, I have to ask how anyone can say they were guilty of simony (which you were not) on the one hand and then instantly turn around and say this: ***and ask for one for free, or travel and make my own third class relics lol ***

Since your emoticons and whatever you call these abbreviations in English shows laughing and hilarity, I consider such an impertinent attitude to be truly disturbing

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Monica, thank you for the link. It’s very informative and helpful to Catholics who may find themselves in a similar situation.

For years I’ve been saying the same thing - if an object has been blessed and someone is asking a specific amount as a “donation,” that’s just a nice way of selling it. I even told that to a priest once who was asking a specific amount of money as a donation for candles that had been blessed on Candlemass (February 2nd). I told him that I was under the impression that if a blessed object was sold, it lost its blessing. He said no; that the object wasn’t being sold, that only a donation was being asked. I wasn’t going to split hairs with him, but I see now I wasn’t off the mark at all. And this was a “traditional” priest too.

As I had occasion to write elsewhere in this thread, I find the article poorly written and lacking in necessary precision. Its main thrust seems to be the one apostolate which is rightly to be regarded with extreme concern – both for the sums of money which is being considered and the troubling provenance of that which it is offering.

As for the rest, no, specifying a “normal offering” is not the same – and has never been considered the same – as selling an item when it is done by a legitimate entity.

If you call your diocese, every diocese has an established stipend for the celebration of a Mass for a person or an intention and that is the amount that is to be represented by the parishes to anyone who requests a Mass. That does not mean that one is being charged that sum for a Mass or that the people are paying that sum in a direct quid pro quo; it remains a donation and the priest retains latitude, which he is to use, to accept less or even nothing rather than the established stipend.

Across all the years I have known the Oblates of Mary Immaculate, for example, they have made available bottles of Lourdes water. Considering that this has to be shipped from France to all over the world, bottled, and repackaged to be sent to the person requesting it, it is quite legitimate to ask that a donation of at least X per bottle be made to cover the expenses incurred. One is not charging for the Lourdes water itself.

If one repeatedly receives a request to ship 25 or 50 small bottles of water accompanied by a donation of $2.00, one confronts a situation in which the ability to offer it to ANYONE ultimately has to be reconsidered because of the economy of scale…and yes that does happen.

I remember when, in my parishes, I would offer blessed candles on the weekend after Candlemass, the requested donation was slightly above the cost of what we paid for them – they were pre-boxed sets, which were packed for ease of dissemination – so that there was a subsidy for those who could not afford to make an offering.

The ladies who took on this task would refer such a situation to me and I would make a reasonable gift to the person, based on the need. That did not mean that one who could make no donation would receive 20 boxes of beeswax candles simply because they desired them. That example should demonstrate why there was reason that we informed parishioners of what the cost had been to the parish and had an expectation that the donation offered took that into account.

Of course there were cases in which I freely gave them. One could not, however, leave a box or basket with “freewill offering” and find anything in it that came close to matching the expense…not least because most people are not familiar with the market value of candles made from beeswax.

Like with my OMI priestly confreres and their distribution of Lourdes water, the Candlemass candles were anything but a money-making enterprise or enrichment scheme. In my parishes, it always operated at a loss that the parish made up …as did the votive candles, for that matter. There again, the scale is different with other points to take into account.

I would bless gallons of holy water every week for the urn that people could help themselves to…some came with enormous containers. When the urn ran dry, I blessed more water, gladly. Beeswax candles had a much greater impact on our operational budget than blessed water on our overall water bill.

 

[Monica4316]

Father,

I am sorry if I have said anything wrongly in this thread. It was not my intent. I feel no hilarity about this situation, as I have agonized much over it since last night. I am not very familiar with terminology and I was trying to find out the answer because I was worried.

Maybe it could help everyone if I clarified some things. I obtained a relic of a fragment of a Saint’s coffin, from a website that is an apostolate to spread devotion to the Saint. It is not a monastery, but a lay apostolate. I was under the impression, when I ordered it, that it is okay to give a donation, as I heard this being done for the packaging and transportation. However, when I received the relic, I began to feel unsure about it because the donation was to support the work of the apostolate and a monastery elsewhere, and I just couldn’t figure out what that meant and if it went beyond the cost and purpose of packaging. I looked up more information online and read elsewhere that any profit is wrong, regardless of the reason, and that the donation should not exceed what it took to make the packaging or transport it. It was also a mandatory donation and a set amount was suggested.

I struggle with scrupulosity and I became very fearful about this, and didn’t know who to believe. I emailed my priest and also posted here. I tried to give my priest some information about the nature of the donation. Later, my priest responded saying that this is not permitted in the Church. He had told me before that giving a donation for packaging is okay, so I assumed he meant about the use of the donation in this particular case. I am hoping to speak to him in person later on to make sure my email was clear.

I felt guilty about what I had done, and I sent an email to the apostolate explaining my situation and suggesting that I send the relic back. I told them that I had asked my priest about this, and that I am not at all asking for my money back. Later I got a response, that they actually refunded the money back to me and gave me the relic as a free gift. I thought this was very kind of them to do this, and I am certain they have only good intention in their apostolate, and I wish them only good.

This relic doesn’t have a red seal or certificate, but in looking online for other similar “ex capsa” relics of the Saint that are very old and put in holy cards. I am thinking that maybe it came from one of those. It is placed in a little type of locket and sealed, and there are words around the relic in Latin. Even though I wish I had authentication of the relic (I hadn’t thought of this either when I ordered it), I do not believe at all that the apostolate faked the relics or stole them or anything else like that. They receive a lot of things from the monastery linked to the Saint and other valid ways.

Since I had other doubts about whether this is a second or third class relic, if lay people can keep second class relics, and if we can keep relics with inexistent certification - I meant to ask my priest about it later. If anyone has any information about that I’d be grateful. In any case, I am sorry if I have spoken wrongly in this thread, and I mean nothing bad about the apostolate, which is why I didn’t mention the name of it - so I don’t detract. I have been in contact with this apostolate a few times over the past few years and I have nothing but good to say about them, and the owner has been very kind and honest in his approach. As I tried to research, I wasn’t sure if I was correct, but after I received a reply from my priest and described the whole situation to him, I just wanted to follow his advice and I didn’t feel comfortable with obtaining the relic in this way anymore. I’m not accusing the apostolate of wanting to commit simony at all. The situation seems very complicated and ambiguous and everyone online is saying something different.

I hope that helps to clarify my other posts…

 

[Don_Ruggero]

/…/ I obtained a relic of a fragment of a Saint’s coffin, from a website that is an apostolate to spread devotion to the Saint. It is not a monastery, but a lay apostolate. I was under the impression, when I ordered it, that it is okay to give a donation, as I heard this being done for the packaging and transportation. However, when I received the relic, I began to feel unsure about it because the donation was to support the work of the apostolate and a monastery elsewhere, and I just couldn’t figure out what that meant and if it went beyond the cost and purpose of packaging. I looked up more information online and read elsewhere that any profit is wrong, regardless of the reason, and that the donation should not exceed what it took to make the packaging or transport it. It was also a mandatory donation and a set amount was suggested

I struggle with scrupulosity /…/

I sent an email to the apostolate explaining my situation and suggesting that I send the relic back. I told them that I had asked my priest about this, and that I am not at all asking for my money back. Later I got a response, that they actually refunded the money back to me and gave me the relic as a free gift /…/

This relic doesn’t have a red seal or certificate, but in looking online for other similar “ex capsa” relics of the Saint that are very old and put in holy cards. I am thinking that maybe it came from one of those. It is placed in a little type of locket and sealed, and there are words around the relic in Latin. Even though I wish I had authentication of the relic /…/

Since I had other doubts about whether this is a second or third class relic, if lay people can keep second class relics, and if we can keep relics with inexistent certification - I meant to ask my priest about it later. If anyone has any information about that I’d be grateful /…/

It helps me to understand your motivation. I’m sorry you suffer from scrupulosity; that’s an issue to address with your confessor/spiritual director; I assure you of my prayers

Yes, you’re perfectly able to possess the relic. That question can be answered directly. An authentication is not a criteria for possessing a relic; it is a matter for exposing it for public veneration

Beyond that issue, what I read is so non-specific in your posts, they offer little by which to arrive at any conclusion or to give meaningful advice; what you wrote would not assist one who has dealt with these issues to help you in any significant way

I think it’s important to clarify for those who will come upon this thread in their searches about relics that

• One could ascertain, through the chancery of the diocese where an apostolate is based, what status it has in that diocese and any concern diocesan officials may or may not have about it
• One could be in touch with the monastery directly to understand its relationship with the apostolate

The one article you linked, frankly, presented a situation that should be regarded with concern. Both the sums discussed and the provenance of the relics were troubling, to say it gently. But I gather this article is not related, actually, to the apostolate with which you interacted. And that the sum of money was much less and was actually “a very small amount” (Post 15). And that the monastery to which the apostolate is linked is authentic…if I have understood you

Given your lack of familiarity with the topic, I’m then at a loss to understand how you would calculate on your own what would be the cost they have sustained versus the surplus

There are also crucial distinctions, which seem to have been lost.

1. That one requires, for example, the cost of the theca be accounted for in the donation to the Religious who have supplied it would be appropriate. I’ve seen theca of silver that cost over one hundred dollars, for example
2. The nuns with whom I interacted, who had been entrusted with this task by the Holy See, did this in place of making vestments, baking altar breads, or other forms of work. A donation therefore, over and above the cost of the theca and all the various things they needed to be reimbursed that had been actual costs to them, was not out of place at all. This was part of their livelihood

Of course, it should not be exorbitant; the nuns of whom I speak were receiving donations per relic that were less than donations received by my parish for a gift of flowers, for example. Such a sum is hardly exorbitant; it’s a small amount going to support a cloistered monastery. I would never characterise such donation as “profit”

1. That the monastery may share some donations with an apostolate that is helping it in another country would similarly not cause me concern, again unless the sum is truly significant

Apostolates of this type may have a generous benefactor or not. They may have many volunteers or not. They are resource dependent

I remember years ago meeting a kind man helping a monastery in Europe via an apostolate to be known in another country. He has since died. May God reward his generosity. And he was generous in keeping the apostolate functioning

The various materials by which the monastery was made known to English speaking people did not print themselves. The envelopes did not appear out of thin air; neither did the postage. The donations that were directed to his efforts did not equal what he was putting into his initiative to help these cloistered nuns or to promote the Saint associated with the monastery…but they at least provided some reduction to what he was underwriting. I’m sure the nuns miss him since his death

These are all things to be accounted for when one is making assessment

 

[Monica4316]

To clarify, the article I posted has no relation to the apostolate. The suggested donation here was really not excessive.

The reason I was worried if there is profit or not, (I am not claiming this as a fact, it is only a worry I had) is because the description of the donation on the website did not mention the packaging of the relic. It was very general. Maybe they did mean just the packaging.

I understand helping Religious who provide the theca… In this case, it is not expensive, and I am not certain that the packaging came from a monastery. I was under the impression that it came from the apostolate.

I saw other similar “ex capsa” relics of this Saint that were placed in very old holy cards. I don’t know if the apostolate takes cards that become very old or damaged and transfers them to a “theca”. This is just a guess, and if its not a standard practice, maybe the source is something else. In any case the relic is still on its original paper with Latin words printed around it.

The website also describes the relics as being third class… So maybe there is disagreement over what class such relics are, and that could contribute to how it gets packaged. If for example there was an old damaged holy card with a relic that was believed to be third class, a person would not try to get a very expensive theca or go to great lengths to obtain the special red seal.

In the end, I don’t know for a fact where or how it was packaged. It could potentially have been done by a monastery. The cost may very well match the cost of the packaging and its really not a lot of money. The reason I couldn’t figure out the purpose of the donation, is because the phrasing on the website did not mention packaging, and possibly due to scruples together with that because I had a great fear of committing simony.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

To clarify, the article I posted has no relation to the apostolate. The suggested donation here was really not excessive.

The reason I was worried if there is profit or not, (I am not claiming this as a fact, it is only a worry I had) is because the description of the donation on the website did not mention the packaging of the relic. It was very general. Maybe they did mean just the packaging.

I understand helping Religious who provide the theca… In this case, it is not expensive, and I am not certain that the packaging came from a monastery. I was under the impression that it came from the apostolate.

I saw other similar “ex capsa” relics of this Saint that were placed in very old holy cards. I don’t know if the apostolate takes cards that become very old or damaged and transfers them to a “theca”. This is just a guess, and if its not a standard practice, maybe the source is something else. In any case the relic is still on its original paper with Latin words printed around it.

The website also describes the relics as being third class… So maybe there is disagreement over what class such relics are, and that could contribute to how it gets packaged. If for example there was an old damaged holy card with a relic that was believed to be third class, a person would not try to get a very expensive theca or go to great lengths to obtain the special red seal.

In the end, I don’t know for a fact where or how it was packaged. It could potentially have been done by a monastery. The cost may very well match the cost of the packaging and its really not a lot of money. The reason I couldn’t figure out the purpose of the donation, is because the phrasing on the website did not mention packaging, and possibly due to scruples together with that because I had a great fear of committing simony.

Well, frankly, what you relate has left me thoroughly befuddled.

In post 14, you relate that there is a seal but in post 23 you say there is not a seal.

In several posts you say that you fear that you have committed simony but then you also express regret in post 23 for not having sought any certificate of authentication for the relic you now possess.

The endeavour now seems to be to ruminate about how this relic may or may not have come to be…without any possibility of resolution on our part, for lack of information, and with you offering conjectures I know not based upon what.

The answer is obvious: either inquire directly of the apostolate as to who assembled the relic in its theca or contact the monastery and ask them if, in fact, the relic is from them.

When the apostolate is unknown, the monastery is unknown, the amount of the offering is unknown and crucial details change from one post to the next, there is no meaningful way to try to bring enlightenment to the 627 people who have already read this thread.

 

[Monica4316]

I’m sorry what I meant about the seal is that there’s the clear seal, - I am not sure what to call it, that actually holds the relic in place. There’s no official red seal.

I asked the apostolate where the relic is from and they said its from the coffin that is in the monastery.

I didn’t provide the name of the apostolate because I could be wrong about things and I don’t want to detract, especially if I’m wrong.