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guanophore
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This topic was moved from a thread called “do you believe in one true church?”
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katieq
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“Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes.”
–John Paul the Great
That’s all I can say…I’m afraid I don’t really understand what the poster was going for with this comment…
–John Paul the Great
That’s all I can say…I’m afraid I don’t really understand what the poster was going for with this comment…
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jack_hawkins
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I agree 100% with your quote, kateq:thumbsup:
The context of my comments was someone trying to make out that the Ark sank and the Titanic did because the designer and builder of the Titanic wasn’t a Christian rather than because of a mixture of enginering flaws, foolhardiness and poorly manufactured steel
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Malcolm_McLean
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Why did the Titanic sink? At one level we could construct an explanation in terms of the bonding strength of the atoms composing the hull, the mass of the iceberg, and so on.
At another level we could concoct a social explanation about the cost of materials, the training of the designers, the pressure to build the ship to schedule.
At another level we could speculate about God being annoyed by the hubris of the claim that the ship was unsinkable.
All these explanations could be simulataneously true.
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jack_hawkins
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so you believe in occasionalism then?
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Zirconia
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As stated, the original claim is absurd.
One can be a Christian and a poor engineer. It is also possible to be a superb engineer and a non-Christian. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
After all, the ancient Egyptians engineered the construction of the pyramids, and the ancient Celts engineered the construction of Stonehenge. They (non-Christians) did it so well that these structures are still standing. On the other hand, certain of the medieval cathedrals and at one point even Hagia Sofia (Christian) collapsed due to engineering problems.
If a structure is poorly engineered and therefore cannot withstand the physical stresses placed upon it, then it will suffer damage regardless of the faith (or lack thereof) of the engineer. The strength of steel is not a function of faith; it is a function of the limited nature of steel. Those limits dictate that if it is stressed beyond its tolerance limits, it will break. And no amount of faith on the part of the engineer will change the tolerance limits of a particular beam of steel.
Faith does not seem to affect physics in this way, which is why I am not afraid to cross a bridge, tour a skyscraper, or fly on a jet even though all of these things might have been engineered by non-Christians.
Zirconia
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jack_hawkins
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TY
some rationality at last!!!
as the Bible says “the sun shines on the wicked and righteous alike” - and the laws of the physical universe apply to all equally except in the rare instance of a miracle!
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Larry1700
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Great post, Malcolm!
I’m gonna keep a copy of this!
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freesoulhope
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When a miracle happens, it effects everybody even though it may seem only personal to the ones who see it; it effects people in different ways, where as some are just unaware of it.TY
some rationality at last!!!
as the Bible says “the sun shines on the wicked and righteous alike” - and the laws of the physical universe apply to all equally except in the rare instance of a miracle!
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jack_hawkins
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I’m not sure what point you’re making - are you even making a comment about science and religion?
Please expand?
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freesoulhope
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You spoke of a miracle in the sense that it did not effect everybody like that of the natural laws which govern us.I’m not sure what point you’re making - are you even making a comment about science and religion?
Please expand?
When God performs a miracle, it causes a ripple through time that causes or influences events that may or may not have occurred if he had not performed the miracle; and because we are apart of time, it is impossible that your life will not be affected even if your billions of miles away from the reported miracle. Take for instance, the raising of the dead back to life; if he had not done so, his or her relatives, which may very well be alive today, may not have existed, neither would he or his decedents have any influence over the lives that they may have come across if he had lived. When Jesus was resurrected, he was witnessed by 400 people; but this didn’t only effect their lives, it effected the life’s of though’s that had not even been born yet.
When a miracle happens, trust me, it’s for everyone and it effects everybody no matter how personal it might seem to the receiver.
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jack_hawkins
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I have to say I am still confused
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freesoulhope
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asgfjkasdjk.sdghsdklvnh?I have to say I am still confused
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freesoulhope
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It doesn’t matter. It may be that i was confuesd, or maybe i was making a point that simply didn’t need to be made; i just like thiNking about stuff like that.
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Donald45
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I know it’s been a while since you posted this, but I wonder if you could provide the source of the quote from JPII. Where did you get this?
Thanks,
Don
+T+
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zian
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guanophore
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OZYMANDIAS
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said:—Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter’d visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp’d on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock’d them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
–Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Zirconia
Guest
What’s this got to do with the price of tea in China?
I was simply trying to make the point that good engineering has very little to do with the faith of the engineer, but rather has much more to do with an understanding of the limitations of created matter and the ability to account for these in design and engineering.
The properties of matter, and the mathematical and physics formulae that describe them, are not a function of anyone’s faith, but rather are inherent in the way God chose to create the universe. As such, they can be discovered and applied by all people, not just Christians, as stated in my first post.
Furthermore, refusing to take them into account and simply hoping for the best is not good policy on the part of any engineering or design & construction team, Christian or not, and smacks of tempting God.
Zirconia
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Dakota_Maverick
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I’ve never heard of that before.
I think in the U.S. we’d call it Sometimesism. Sounds like a
Bill Cosby term.
The most notorious example I’ve seen of religion and science not mixing was the Terri Schaivo murder where the attorney was a yoga man who believed in reincarnation etc. and pushed for her medical death. There are instances where the person’s faith or lack thereof make a huge difference.
Yoga kills…ask Terri.
As far as faith and building? Well I’d say the story of Babel says something about God’s view of man. Seems to say there is more emphasis on hearts than engineering. I’d say if the Titanic was a prideful construction like the one in Babel… maybe that is why it sank.
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jack_hawkins
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well the example of Terry Schiavo you give is an example of faith affecting moral decisions really tho - his faith had no effect on the interpretation of the science as such did it?
BTW from what you’ve said, you believe in occasionalism
BTW from what you’ve said, you believe in occasionalism
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