Religion and Science

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I believe that people can choose to love the Catholic Church even when others ridicule it or worse yet, when others demand that geocentrism should be part of God’s plan of salvation. That is like stepping on the hands of God. Shouldn’t we be praising God for His beautiful universe? Instead of whining about the position of a planet.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16-17
What do you mean ‘others’ ridiculing the Catholic Church. You have chosen to be a Copernican, thus one of those who support the notion that the Church of the 17th century didn’t know their knee from their elbow in matters of religion and science. Given you chose not to indulge in answering questions 1-5 Granny, I leave you with your ‘whining about the position of a planet.’ For the Church of the 17th century it was the protection of the integrity of the Scriptures and the protection of Catholic exegesis and hermeneutics that they and I were/are concerned about. Finally granny, don’t you know in geocentrism the earth is not a planet?
 
OK David, no hurry.

Yes I have, with Providentissimus Deus. Here is the passage that I have a problem with; . . .

Indeed, so harmful was this passage that Pope Benedict XV’s encyclical on Scripture: Spiritus Paraclitus of 1920, had to correct the damage it did to exegesis, and the targets it gave to modernists in the years after it. Here is that correcting passage: . . .

Yet no one can pretend that certain recent writers really adhere to these limitations. For while conceding that inspiration extends to every phrase –and indeed every word of Scripture– yet, by endeavouring to distinguish between what they style the primary or religious and the secondary or profane element in the Bible, they claim that the effect of inspiration –namely, absolute truth and immunity from error- are to be restricted to that primary or religious element. Their notion is that only what concerns religion is intended and taught by God in Scripture, and that all the rest –things concerning “profane knowledge”, the garments in which the Divine truth is presented- God merely permits, and even leaves to the individual author’s greater or less knowledge. Small wonder then, that in their view a considerable number of things occur in the Bible touching physical science, history and the like, which cannot be reconciled with modern progress in science.’
Interesting that for all the claim to be reconciling the Church’s pronouncements, you yourself put them at war with each other. Let the reader note too that Cassini has no problem with later papal decrees allegedly correcting earlier ones, but he denies to us that papal decrees can correct those from Roman congregations. I say that if you claim that Benedict XV had to correct the allegedly “harmful” enyclical of his predecessor, then you have no grounds to complain if we state that later papal decrees corrected a decree of the Holy Office which was not even signed by the Pope.

Now, the passage you cite from Providentissimus Deus is certainly interesting, but I had in mind this passage specifically. Pope Leo XIII cites St. Augustine and then comments:

To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared," or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.

Cassini, you yourself have admitted that this applies to geocentrism. I quote here your own words:

in 1893, Pope Leo XIII produced his all encompassing encyclical letter on the Bible, Providentissimus Deus. In it, as well as setting out all the rules, advice and warnings as to how the Scriptures should and should not be interpreted, in a paragraph entitled ‘natural science’, gave approval to an exegesis that had been advocated first by Galileo. This new hermeneutics allowed certain interpretations of the Fathers to be ignored; ‘for it may be that, in commentating on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect.’ . . . . **The only interpretation of note in the history of the Church that the encyclical could be referring to was the fixed sun/moving earth heresy.
**

I agree completely with your last sentence. I disagree very strongly with the rest of what you have to say there, which I did not include because I consider it scandalous, that what Leo XIII put out in a papal encyclial was Masonic and part of a Satanically inspired plot to undermine the Church.

Suffice it to say that you admit that in this section of a papal encyclical, which was affirmed verbatim in another papal encyclical from Pius XII, the Popes teach that in these matters the Holy Spirit did not put any such details of the physical universe into sacred Scripture at all. Rather, He inspired the writers to use figurative language – the sun rises, the sun sets, the sun goes up, the sun goes down – to describe things according to their appearances. There is no error in Scripture whatsoever – there cannot be, of course, because the Church teaches that Scripture cannot err – for even “eminent men of science” use such figurative language even to this day and do not thereby consider that they are speaking falsely.

If information about the “essential nature of the things of the visible universe” was not put into sacred Scripture by the Holy Spirit, then these cannot be matters of faith and morals. The views of the Fathers do not bind in matters not of faith and morals (as Leo XIII says). And therefore, it cannot be contrary to the Faith to hold differing views on matters of cosmology.

If one takes to heart what Leo XIII says – the Holy Spirit did not put details of the physical universe into sacred Scripture at all – then Leo XIII and Benedict XV can be seen as saying the same thing, not at all as one correcting the other. I will have more to say, but in my opinion this by itself is sufficient.
 
What do you mean ‘others’ ridiculing the Catholic Church. You have chosen to be a Copernican, thus one of those who support the notion that the Church of the 17th century didn’t know their knee from their elbow in matters of religion and science. Given you chose not to indulge in answering questions 1-5 Granny, I leave you with your ‘whining about the position of a planet.’ For the Church of the 17th century it was the protection of the integrity of the Scriptures and the protection of Catholic exegesis and hermeneutics that they and I were/are concerned about. Finally granny, don’t you know in geocentrism the earth is not a planet?
I am not sure if being called a Copernican means that the Catholic Church based on geocentrism came into existence in the 17th century. So far, I have not seen any documents that changed the foundation of Catholicism to a belief in geocentrism. Maybe what is being implied is that there was some kind of false Catholicism before the 17th century. And it took geocentrism to reveal the real church. What is Cassini really saying???

The first thing which needs to be clarified is that the current Catholic Church existed before the 17th century.
 
You have chosen to be a Copernican, thus one of those who support the notion that the Church of the 17th century didn’t know their knee from their elbow in matters of religion and science.
Emphasis is mine.

The Catholic Church does not teach that understanding science is a necessary requirement for salvation.

No matter how many people want to make geocentrism the requirement for salvation, the Catholic Church still holds to the dogmas which were decided before the 17th century and after the 17th century.

Funny names like Copernican, Pope Granny, and Granny’s magical mystery tour, do not change my belief in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. I will continue to defend the Catholic Church against the opposition to its theological dogmas regarding the reality of Adam and Eve. I will continue to point out that there is no Catholic theological dogma specifically citing geocentrism as a must-be-believed in order to enter God’s kingdom.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
 
Whether religion should incorporate scientific truths is up to those leaders of their specific religions. I think that they should, but I am not presently a member of any religious sect.
Larkin, it depends on what you mean by “incorporate.” As Max Wildiers has noted in The Theologians and His Universe, a theology that does not reflect a worldview of some sort is mute, apophatic. The extent to which theology needs to reflect or be in dialogue with current science depends on the doctrine under discussion.

For example, when eschatology involved discussion of the physical location of hell, it made sense that theology be cognizant of the physical structure of the earth. Now that we know more about that physical structure than did Dante, we realize that locating hell underground is poetic metaphor, not a reflection of literal physical truth. Thus, theology of eschatology does incorporate scientific truths.

StAnastasia
 
Larkin, it depends on what you mean by “incorporate.” As Max Wildiers has noted in The Theologians and His Universe, a theology that does not reflect a worldview of some sort is mute, apophatic. The extent to which theology needs to reflect or be in dialogue with current science depends on the doctrine under discussion.

For example, when eschatology involved discussion of the physical location of hell, it made sense that theology be cognizant of the physical structure of the earth. Now that we know more about that physical structure than did Dante, we realize that locating hell underground is poetic metaphor, not a reflection of literal physical truth. Thus, theology of eschatology does incorporate scientific truths.

StAnastasia
Your point is very reasonable. But there are religious groups which reject this reasoning for a literal interpretation of ancient texts which cannot incorporate new material understandings of our bodies, our world, and our universe. I find this unfortunate, and could not be a part of such a group. Others can.
 
Your point is very reasonable. But there are religious groups which reject this reasoning for a literal interpretation of ancient texts which cannot incorporate new material understandings of our bodies, our world, and our universe. I find this unfortunate, and could not be a part of such a group. Others can.
Larkin, I could not be part of such a group either. Fortunately my Catholic Church is not such a group, thus not forcing a false choice upon me.
 
Isaac didn’t know about genetics, as that discovery lay 3500 years in the future.
It’s true that Isaac did not know about genetics as such. However, he did know how to select and breed livestock using inherited traits.
 
It’s true that Isaac did not know about genetics as such. However, he did know how to select and breed livestock using inherited traits.
I can’t find the passage that supports this. Can you please give the text citation?
 
I can’t find the passage that supports this. Can you please give the text citation?
Genesis Chapter 30 starting with verse 25 describes how Jacob outwits Laban ensuring that he ends up with the healthy livestock.
 
Genesis Chapter 30 starting with verse 25 describes how Jacob outwits Laban ensuring that he ends up with the healthy livestock.
The reference is to superstition, not a scientific approach to sheep breeding!
 
I have always believed that truth cannot contradict truth. If science and religion do not agree, it is either a case of bad science or bad religion. Sometimes, the facts and data do not disagree but interpretations are most frequently in error.
Sorry about arriving late to this discussion. Upon resolving the conflicts between religion and science my observations are consistent with your OP, and take your comment a tick further. IMO in terms of their ventures into explanations of the Creator’s purpose in engineering a universe, all religious are badly mistaken. Metaphysics and cosmology were not their proper business in the first place. However, in matters of human behavior. some religions have set forth excellent standards. I’ve thought that the world would be a much better place if the Church, for example, had simply followed Christ’s order to teach his words, and just his words.

Had the Church done what Christ asked of it and kept its nose out of extraneous subjects like the nature and purpose of God, and of Christ himself, there would be no conflict between it’s teachings and those of science. Alas…

So, the conflicts between religion and science occur only in areas where religion lacked the qualifications to competently venture. Science overreacted very badly to religions’ various intrusions, countering with absurd beliefs of their own, such as the Big Bang and Darwinism.

Upon correcting the entire mess, it became apparent (to me, anyhow) that in matters of the Beginnings of Things, science and religion are both wrong.

However, the area in which religions have been approximately correct is critical to the eventual success of science. All the scientists and all the king’s men will fail to understand the origins of things until they accept the simple principle that at least one highly intelligent conscious entity, likely working as head of a design team full of ultra-geniuses, engineered the core elements of the universe.

In turn, religions may find it useful to give up various illogical opinions about the properties, characteristics, and purposes of their gods and get about their proper business of teaching and inspiring humankind in principles of proper behavior. Christ’s teachings, and not the teachings of various followers, would IMO be an excellent place to begin.
 
Neither is absurd.
My standards for absurdity differ from yours. For example,

The mathematically determinable odds for the assembly of the smallest human gene, consisting of 900 base-pairs, are 1 in 10 exp-542. The odds against picking out one specially designated atom from all atoms in the universe are only 10 exp-80, a far more likely event.

There are about 23,000 genes in the human body. Probabilities multiply. This is one of many bases for labeling Darwinism an absurd theory. You might want to improve your education by studying Michael Behe’s books.

The precursor to the Big Bang is regarded by cosmologists as a physical “singularity.” The concept of a singularity is mathematical. When an equation describing any physical phenomenon results is a singularity, the poor student who wrote it gets an “F.”

Physical singularities do not exist. When they appear in the math, they are telling us that the math is wrong, or the assumptions upon which it is based are wrong, or both. Therefore the Big Bang concept is absurd.
 
There are about 23,000 genes in the human body. Probabilities multiply. This is one of many bases for labeling Darwinism an absurd theory. You might want to improve your education by studying Michael Behe’s books.
Michael Behe is dismissed as a crank by the scientific community, including his own department at LeHigh University, and by other Catholic biologists and biochemists. That speaks volumes about his scientific credibility!
Therefore the Big Bang concept is absurd.
Is that why this theory – formulated by a Catholic priest – is so widely accepted?
 
Michael Behe is dismissed as a crank by the scientific community, including his own department at LeHigh University, and by other Catholic biologists and biochemists. That speaks volumes about his scientific credibility!
The scientific Establishment is well-known for its prejudice and opposition to new ideas…
 
Michael Behe is dismissed as a crank by the scientific community, including his own department at LeHigh University, and by other Catholic biologists and biochemists. That speaks volumes about his scientific credibility!

Is that why this theory – formulated by a Catholic priest – is so widely accepted?
It would be better that they address the proposals he puts forth on their own merits. So should you.
 
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