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PRmerger
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Cool info.
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StAnastasia
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No, the hypostatic union is a mystery, but not a contradiction. your claim is a contradiction: “Of course God cannot change. And yes, God does change!”
No, it is not the result of sin. Genetic mutation has been around for three billion years; modern humans have been on the scene for only 200,000
False. The Swyer syndrome has nothing to do with so-called “original sin” or “fallen human nature.”
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grannymh
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In my humble opinion, it would be most helpful if one went back to basic Catholicism and learned what Adam’s human nature is and where his human nature came from.Of course it does. Not personal sin, naturally, but Original Sin. It is the result of our fallen human nature. We are not how were were intended to be, from the beginning.
This morning, I was thinking about those weird posts about the spiritual soul. It is as if the theological movement to change the Catholic Church is chipping away at God’s Divine power. That desire to chip away at God is rooted in the preference of the material world over the spiritual world.
This does not imply that the material world is evil in itself. Nor does it imply that science is evil in itself. The material world is created by God and true science is a gift from God.
However, when one goes back to basic Catholicism and relearns the conditions for Adam to remain in God’s friendship, one can get a better grasp on human nature and the real reality of the spiritual soul. Furthermore, all those weird posts about the spiritual soul miss the point of what Adam was intended to be in the beginning and what his descendants are intended to be.
According to those who wrongly use the world’s scientists as their reference point for spiritual truth, the two founders of the human species did not exist. Those who wrongly use the world’s scientists as their reference point for understanding human nature have, in my humble opinion, been slowly drawn into the idea that the material world is “queen” and evolver of the material-spiritual soul.
No wonder people are confused about Catholicism. No wonder people have difficulty understanding the purpose of Jesus Christ when the purpose of Adam has been omitted from polite conversation.
Those weird posts about the spiritual soul – I cannot help thinking …
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PRmerger
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Yes, 'tis a mystery, is it not?
If you can accept the hypostatic union, the juxtaposition of God’s full mercy and God’s perfect judgement, One God yet Three Persons, bilocation, Jesus walking through walls, the Resurrection, Transubstantiation, then you can accept the concept of God’s antecedent will vs God’ consequent will.
Anomalous genetic mutation is a result of sin. Of our fallen human nature.
I see. So you’re saying the Swyer syndrome is part of our perfected human nature? :whacky:
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PRmerger
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:clapping: :bowdown:
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PRmerger
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This brings to mind an interesting thought: I happen to believe that those with Down Syndrome are perfect. Thus, I don’t believe that their condition is a result of some anomaly but they are how they were intended to be from the beginning.
There is a young man with Down Syndrome in my parish. Every time he goes up to receive the Eucharist it chokes me up. Chokes me up. He receives Him with such reverence and awe–he gets what I often fail to see.
So what will this man be in heaven? Exactly as he is now, IMHO!
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inocente
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Second time you’ve accused me of that and the second time you’re wrong - But as I discovered, a conversation with him confuses more than it clarifies. With his powers in decline, Antony Flew, a man who devoted his life to rational argument, has become a mere symbol, a trophy in a battle fought by people whose agendas he does not fully understand. - nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html
Imho grasping at those who supposedly saw the light in their dotage amounts to using the dead, who have no voice, as footballs. On another thread someone reported a clip of an old Carl Sagan with the audio doctored to have him say he’d found Jesus. It’s pointless, just makes Christians look needy and childish. Was that the “metaphysical orientation” I revealed or are you suggesting something darker, revealed alone to the Great Prophet tonyrey?
That’s remarkably close to the opening sentence of the Wikipedia article on metabolism
. Read the next sentence “These processes allow organisms to grow and reproduce, maintain their structures, and respond to their environments”. That covers quite a lot of life.BTW we were talking about “life force”, and vitalism is the only attempt I know of to put a reasoned theory around it, and it failed miserably.
It wasn’t the first time round when instead you accused me of your new catchphrase, argumenta ad hominem, which it also wasn’t. Do I take it you have no answer and can only bluster?
Fine, but first time round you ignored my question by asking your own, and now you ignore my question by answering another which no one asked. The question was: “Could you start by explaining the directedness and psychological aspect of an olive tree’s life?” which, if you remember that far back, was my attempt to clarify what you meant by “the directiveness, orderliness and creativeness of organic activities and the psychological aspect of life”.
- It is not self-evident that a tree or an animal or a person is adequately* explained as a molecular structure - unless one is a materialist who believes they are all molecular machines which happen to exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever.
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inocente
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Heh! We’re expected to believe those two just weeded that whole plot? Looks like the first time either of them ever set foot on a farm. City folk wouldn’t know a day’s work if it fell on them. City folk think fish grow on trees. City folk think stars are in movies, they ain’t never even seen the firmament. And other social commentary on the meaning of life.
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StAnastasia
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Interesting concept of “perfect.”
A beautiful story!
Babies born blind or deaf or without arms and legs due to genetic defect or gestational problems will be legless and armless in heaven? I suppose God does have a sense of humor. This is odd from my merely human point of view, but perhaps funny in a way that my human limitations prevent me from seeing.
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StAnastasia
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Then you have to explain why “anomalous genetic mutation” (whatever that term means) was around on earth for billions of years before “fallen human nature” was created.
No - you said that, not me.
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tonyrey
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It is despicable to describe a dead man as being in his dotage - especially when he knew far more about the subject than you ever will… You clearly have a vested interest in writing him off without even refuting his reasoning. .
The sentence presupposes that life exists…That’s remarkably close to the opening sentence of the Wikipedia article on metabolism
Do you genuinely believe that a tree or an animal or a person is a*dequately *explained as a molecular structure?
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tonyrey
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I can understand your belief that they are perfect because they are indeed morally and spiritually perfect! But it wasn’t God’s intention to create them like that any more than it is God’s intention for people to die prolonged, agonising deaths from disease or be hideously mutilated by accidents or natural disasters.
David Hume was a sceptic but he recognised the fact that God works through the laws of nature and not through “particular volitions”. Disabled people are certainly not mentally or physically perfect. They are handicapped due to the element of chance within the framework of Design. John Calvin was mistaken in his belief that every drop of rain falls at the express command of God. If that were true He would be directly responsible for all the suffering in the world.
God permits misfortunes because they are inevitable in an immensely complex world in which sooner or later some one is bound to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Those with Downs syndrome are afflicted due to a **physical **cause. They are sacrificial victims like Jesus, more blessed than normal people by virtue of their disability and their inability to sin. They are disadvantaged for the sake of those of us who are blessed with normal development and we should love them all the more because of that and because they will certainly go to heaven…
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StAnastasia
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True!
And the number of horrifying, agonizing diseases is long, so if we ascribe them all to divine intention, are we blaspheming God as intentional creator of a house of horror?
Essentially, we inhabit and ancient, dynamic, and evolving universe. The way I interpret this theologically is that God wanted to create a universe that would maximise the possibilities of life evolving that would respond to God morally and spiritually. A universe full of contingent events – exploding stars, gamma ray bursts, asteroid collisions, genetic mutations, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanoes, vectors of disease and famine – all of these things act upon genetic variation to push species in the direction of survival and evolution. Inevitably, people with free will living on a dynamic planet will get into trouble sooner or later, and, as you say, be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Tonyrey, I understand your argument, but I don’t buy it. For God to do this would be for God to treat beings as means to other people’s ends, rather than as ends in themselves.
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Charlemagne_II
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inocente
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Imho grasping at those who supposedly saw the light in their dotage amounts to using the dead, who have no voice, as footballs.**
Men who are in their dotage do not get to write and publish books like There Is a God by Antony Flew.
If you are arguing against deathbed conversions, why are you a Baptist? You sound more like an atheist.
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Imho grasping at those who supposedly saw the light in their dotage amounts to using the dead, who have no voice, as footballs.**
Men who are in their dotage do not get to write and publish books like There Is a God by Antony Flew.
If you are arguing against deathbed conversions, why are you a Baptist? You sound more like an atheist.
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tonyrey
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tonyrey
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I have had that impression for a long time…inocente
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Imho grasping at those who supposedly saw the light in their dotage amounts to using the dead, who have no voice, as footballs.**
Men who are in their dotage do not get to write and publish books like There Is a God by Antony Flew.
If you are arguing against deathbed conversions, why are you a Baptist? You sound more like an atheist.
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StAnastasia
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Oh, with that clarification I can agree with you! As long as you don’t mean that God intended to create people with physical or mental handicaps and that this would be their state in the life of the resurrection.
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grannymh
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emphasis mine
Regarding " – all of these things act upon genetic variation to push species in the direction of survival and evolution. Inevitably, people with free will living on a dynamic planet will get into trouble sooner or later, and, as you say, be in the wrong place at the wrong time." emphasis mine
Was there an “original sin”? If so, please explain it? If not, what took its place?
Thank you.
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StAnastasia
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Undoubtedly there was an original sin. For those who do not interpret the forbidden fruit story literally, the time and place and circumstances of that “original sin” are lost in the mists of prehistory. Anatomical modernity of Homo sapiens arrived 200,000 years ago; behavioral modernity some tens of thousands of years later, with the evolution of altruism and the dawn of moral and spiritual consciousness.
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grannymh
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I understand.
Since you said: “Undoubtedly there was an original sin” – Would you please explain it?
Thank you.
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