Religion of America

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Anna_Scott said:
wyp8riot:
  1. There exists a creator who made all things and mankind should recognize and worship him.
  2. The creator has revealed a moral code of behavior for happy living which distinguishes right from wrong.
  3. The creator holds mankind responsible for the way they treat each other.
  4. All mankind live beyond this life.
  5. In the next life individuals are judged for their conduct in this one.
I agree that the principles are true, in view of my own interpretation of these 5 principles.

However, I don’t think these 5 principles should be taught in school as a “religion of America.” Who would interpret these?

I wouldn’t want to go by the LDS interpretation of who God is, and what he expects of us; because your beliefs contradict my beliefs. So, can you see how quickly these 5 principles become problematic?

The point is, you can’t just teach the principles, without interpretation of the principles.

Kids are going to ask questions. Questions lead to interpretation. For example, the children may ask, who is the creator?

How do the teachers answer this? Do they teach every known concept of God and Creator; or should the teachers say, “go home and ask your parents?”

Anna
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The foundations that made this country great didn’t seem to have a problem with this. Consequently the fall of the republic and the problems we face as a nation. are related to the anti religious movement. This isn’t about Mormonism or Skousen. This again is about our nations heritage . there are plenty of patriot Catholics that are also aware of these problems and understand the true meaning of Seperation of Church and State. Anyone can access the Northwest Ordinance and read the document and Article 3 of that document. anyone can read the words of the Founding fathers. I for one believe they knew the lessons of history well. I for one believe that abandoning the principles they discovered is the main source of the downward spiral and fall of the republic. The republic certainly is falling and in a downward spiral.
 
Xuan said:
I too believe in the separation of church and state. The establishment clause in the First Amendment doesn’t say, or mean, “a religion.” It says, and means, “religion” in general. It would be unconstitutional to teach any religion as a state-sponsored religion, including the so called “Religion of America.”

Incidentally, item #3 in the treaty he referenced goes on to promise that the Indian lands will never be invaded or taken away. We all know how that worked out.

Also, since we’re dredging up old treaties, the Treaty of Tripoli states categorically that America is not a Christian nation.
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It was the same founders that signed the declaration of independence that signed the northwest ordinance. The 5 religious principles is not a specific religion.

If you read the words of the founders its hard to misinterpret their intentions and beliefs.
 
Anna_Scott said:
wyp8riot:
  1. There exists a creator who made all things and mankind should recognize and worship him.
  2. The creator has revealed a moral code of behavior for happy living which distinguishes right from wrong.
  3. The creator holds mankind responsible for the way they treat each other.
  4. All mankind live beyond this life.
  5. In the next life individuals are judged for their conduct in this one.
I agree that the principles are true, in view of my own interpretation of these 5 principles.

However, I don’t think these 5 principles should be taught in school as a “religion of America.” Who would interpret these?

I wouldn’t want to go by the LDS interpretation of who God is, and what he expects of us; because your beliefs contradict my beliefs. So, can you see how quickly these 5 principles become problematic?

The point is, you can’t just teach the principles, without interpretation of the principles.

Kids are going to ask questions. Questions lead to interpretation. For example, the children may ask, who is the creator?

How do the teachers answer this? Do they teach every known concept of God and Creator; or should the teachers say, “go home and ask your parents?”

Anna
Click to expand...
wyp8riot said:
The foundations that made this country great didn’t seem to have a problem with this. Consequently the fall of the republic and the problems we face as a nation. are related to the anti religious movement. This isn’t about Mormonism or Skousen.

This again is about our nations heritage . there are plenty of patriot Catholics that are also aware of these problems and understand the true meaning of Seperation of Church and State. Anyone can access the Northwest Ordinance and read the document and Article 3 of that document. anyone can read the words of the Founding fathers. I for one believe they knew the lessons of history well. I for one believe that abandoning the principles they discovered is the main source of the downward spiral and fall of the republic. The republic certainly is falling and in a downward spiral.
Click to expand...
You keep saying this is about our nation’s heritage; but you avoid engaging in a serious discussion about the details of implementing the 5 principles.

As I said in my previous post:
The point is, you can’t just teach the principles, without interpretation of the principles.
Click to expand...
Kids are going to ask questions. Questions lead to interpretation. For example, the children may ask, who is the creator?
Click to expand...
How do the teachers answer this? Do they teach every known concept of God and Creator; or should the teachers say, “go home and ask your parents?”
Click to expand...
If you are serious about the 5 principles, at least discuss how you think they should be implemented.

Start with the first principle:

“1. There exists a creator who made all things and mankind should recognize and worship him.”

If this principle is taught in school, how do you answer school children when they ask, “Who is the creator?”

Anna
 
wyp8riot said:
It was the same founders that signed the declaration of independence that signed the northwest ordinance. The 5 religious principles is not a specific religion.

If you read the words of the founders its hard to misinterpret their intentions and beliefs.
Click to expand...
The 5 religious principles are not a religion in themselves, but they are about religion. They are the principles that the Abrahamic religions are based on. Even though they are not “a religion,” they are nonetheless “religion.” The First Amendment of the Bill of Rights prohibits the government from establishing religion. Not “a religion,” but “religion.”

In order for the government to endorse and teach religion (religious principles), the First Amendment would have to be scrapped. Is that what you want? Doesn’t sound very patriotic to me.
 
Xuan said:
The 5 religious principles are not a religion in themselves, but they are about religion. They are the principles that the Abrahamic religions are based on. Even though they are not “a religion,” they are nonetheless “religion.” The First Amendment of the Bill of Rights prohibits the government from establishing religion. Not “a religion,” but “religion.”

In order for the government to endorse and teach religion (religious principles), the First Amendment would have to be scrapped. Is that what you want? Doesn’t sound very patriotic to me.
Click to expand...
www.freedomproject.org
 
Anna_Scott said:
You keep saying this is about our nation’s heritage; but you avoid engaging in a serious discussion about the details of implementing the 5 principles.

As I said in my previous post:

If you are serious about the 5 principles, at least discuss how you think they should be implemented.

Start with the first principle:

“1. There exists a creator who made all things and mankind should recognize and worship him.”

If this principle is taught in school, how do you answer school children when they ask, “Who is the creator?”

**You ask good questions and seek debate.
How do answer the question about the fact that schools falsely teach our government was founded as a democracy? What about that schools have falsely taught columbus discovered the earth was round and other falsehoods.

Schools never did and never will have specific and exact answers for everything, nor do they with much of the material now, would you suggest we do away with education entirely?

Freedom of Religion does not = freedom from religion and that was never the intent of the founders. Of course other tyrannical governments throughout history have practiced other methods and have no respect for God given individual rights. Which should we encourage a free society with God given individual rights from a creator or Oppressive governments that are the supreme authority?**

Anna
Click to expand...
I think these answers can be found in our nations history.

www.freedomproject.com
 
StrawberryJam said:
Sorry for the long delay in my response wyp8riot,

If you do recognize the “good intentions” with the vouchers, can I ask on what basis?
PEOPLE WANT RELIGIOUS FREEDOM,
My basis is they earned it. (They being the catholics who actually took the time money and effort to put schools up all over the US) EARNED IT FROM WHO? THE TAX PAYER, THE GOVERNMENT? **
Not just in isolated confines. All over the US. If it bears repeating.
Your religion had every chance to do the same.THE LDS CHURCH has promoted freedom of religion and private religious institutions. However this thread isnt about what any particular denomination has done correctly or incorrectly in the past. I am not against the fact that churches were built and established. In fact I have high respect for samoe catholic Patriots in the freedom movement but agin that isnt the topic of this thread.** I am sorry it did not do so. What would you like me to say about that? I can’t support that, nor would you expect me to. Are you suggesting that your church deserves vouchers for credit based on the fact it has established buildings already?
I don’t call for removing the Christian God from schools, but I do object to their having to be drawn away from basic acedemics to learn the MYRIADS of religons out there paid by MY DOLLAR. Thats fair, Ideally I support separation of education and state (google the website)
I don’t mind giving the catholics a break because if they all suddenly boycotted public schools, our economy would not bear it. I know Mormons also have a strong belief in life as catholics do, and if you both boycotted-
Who knows what you could accomplish working together as you have with abortion.
Think about that.** That is the point of this thread, encouraging unity.**

Your forces together could literally rock the US to it’s very knees.
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I think we are in agreement more than you may realize.
The reason i am against vouchers is because it supports the idea that government can establish laws regarding religion. It presupposes that the government has authority over the church and religious institutions of education. It presupposes it to be a privilege granted via vouchers.It also gives the government ability to set the terms of the vouchers. The church has a right to establish educational institutions and doesn’t need vouchers or government approval. As a catholic you shouldn’t be forced to even pay taxes to support a government run school of you do not want to and especially if you have your children in a catholic institution for education. which I highly recommend over government schools.
 
Anna_Scott said:
You keep saying this is about our nation’s heritage; but you avoid engaging in a serious discussion about the details of implementing the 5 principles.

As I said in my previous post:

If you are serious about the 5 principles, at least discuss how you think they should be implemented.

**Start with the first principle:

“1. There exists a creator who made all things and mankind should recognize and worship him.”

If this principle is taught in school, how do you answer school children when they ask, “Who is the creator?”**

Anna
Click to expand...
wyp8riot said:
You ask good questions and seek debate.
How do answer the question about the fact that schools falsely teach our government was founded as a democracy? What about that schools have falsely taught columbus discovered the earth was round and other falsehoods.

Schools never did and never will have specific and exact answers for everything, nor do they with much of the material now, would you suggest we do away with education entirely?

Freedom of Religion does not = freedom from religion and that was never the intent of the founders. Of course other tyrannical governments throughout history have practiced other methods and have no respect for God given individual rights. Which should we encourage a free society with God given individual rights from a creator or Oppressive governments that are the supreme authority?

I think these answers can be found in our nations history.

www.freedomproject.com
Click to expand...
So, in other words, you cannot answer even one question about something you want implemented in school.

Anna
 
I did answer it but not as specifically as you would like.

You have avoided answer to several questions.

Our nation was founded on Christian and religious heritage. The founders encouraged religion to be taught in schools and anyone who isnt aware of this is not aware of the history of this nation. Hopefully that point has been made clear. anyone who wishes to learn more can by seeking. If the desire is to attack the messenger and not one of genuine seeking" of truth, you will get what you are looking for either way. The choice is acceptance of the replaced socialist religion that that makes Government the highest authority and the God of you and your culture where men do not have rights from their creator, or return to the nations heritage where men have rights as a gift from God and governments only role is to protect those rights in conjunction with its constitutionally specific duties. Freedom, religion and Morality, or, Government, Oppression, Tyranny and burdensome taxes, these are the choices. Rights are a gift from God as part of the Divine plan or they are a gift from government or groups of men as part of the political plan.
We inherited our freedoms based on men who knew the first was correct and the latter was the cause of the worlds problems. They knew the lessons of history well.

Hopefully that gives some answers.
 
Anna_Scott said:
wyp8riot:
  1. There exists a creator who made all things and mankind should recognize and worship him.
  2. The creator has revealed a moral code of behavior for happy living which distinguishes right from wrong.
  3. The creator holds mankind responsible for the way they treat each other.
  4. All mankind live beyond this life.
  5. In the next life individuals are judged for their conduct in this one.
**I agree that the principles are true, in view of my own interpretation of these 5 principles.

However, I don’t think these 5 principles should be taught in school as a “religion of America.” Who would interpret these?

I wouldn’t want to go by the LDS interpretation of who God is, and what he expects of us; because your beliefs contradict my beliefs. So, can you see how quickly these 5 principles become problematic?

The point is, you can’t just teach the principles, without interpretation of the principles.

Kids are going to ask questions. Questions lead to interpretation. For example, the children may ask, who is the creator?

How do the teachers answer this? Do they teach every known concept of God and Creator; or should the teachers say, “go home and ask your parents?” **Anna
Click to expand...
wyp8riot said:
The foundations that made this country great didn’t seem to have a problem with this. Consequently the fall of the republic and the problems we face as a nation. are related to the anti religious movement. This isn’t about Mormonism or Skousen. This again is about our nations heritage . there are plenty of patriot Catholics that are also aware of these problems and understand the true meaning of Seperation of Church and State. Anyone can access the Northwest Ordinance and read the document and Article 3 of that document. anyone can read the words of the Founding fathers. I for one believe they knew the lessons of history well. I for one believe that abandoning the principles they discovered is the main source of the downward spiral and fall of the republic. The republic certainly is falling and in a downward spiral.
Click to expand...
Anna_Scott said:
**You keep saying this is about our nation’s heritage; but you avoid engaging in a serious discussion about the details of implementing the 5 principles.

As I said in my previous post:

If you are serious about the 5 principles, at least discuss how you think they should be implemented.

Start with the first principle:

“1. There exists a creator who made all things and mankind should recognize and worship him.”

If this principle is taught in school, how do you answer school children when they ask, “Who is the creator?”** Anna
Click to expand...
wyp8riot said:
I think these answers can be found in our nations history.

www.freedomproject.com
Click to expand...
Anna_Scott said:
**So, in other words, you cannot answer even one question about something you want implemented in school.**Anna
Click to expand...
wyp8riot said:
I did answer it but not as specifically as you would like.

You have avoided answer to several questions.

Our nation was founded on Christian and religious heritage. The founders encouraged religion to be taught in schools and anyone who isnt aware of this is not aware of the history of this nation. Hopefully that point has been made clear. anyone who wishes to learn more can by seeking. If the desire is to attack the messenger and not one of genuine seeking" of truth, you will get what you are looking for either way. The choice is acceptance of the replaced socialist religion that that makes Government the highest authority and the God of you and your culture where men do not have rights from their creator, or return to the nations heritage where men have rights as a gift from God and governments only role is to protect those rights in conjunction with its constitutionally specific duties. Freedom, religion and Morality, or, Government, Oppression, Tyranny and burdensome taxes, these are the choices. Rights are a gift from God as part of the Divine plan or they are a gift from government or groups of men as part of the political plan.
We inherited our freedoms based on men who knew the first was correct and the latter was the cause of the worlds problems. They knew the lessons of history well.

Hopefully that gives some answers.
Click to expand...
**Actually, you have not answered my question. So, there is nothing left to say on this thread. I can’t have a conversation with myself.

Anna**
 
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