Religion, Parenthood, Brainwashing and Branding

[Bradski]

Yes, and that was what I said. I did point out that it has to be a serious matter to be mortal sin, that you have to know it’s serious and that you have to do it willingly.

And matters serious enough to get you sent to hell are killing millions and not honouring your parents. Or being an atheist. Or any act that is contrary to the ten commandments:

Ccc1858: Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments.

Also, atheism and skipping Mass? Also also; atheism is not *per se *a sin.

Thou shalt have no other God than Me.
I do.

Keep the Sabbath holy.
I don’t.

I have no idea ‘what God specifically does’ to individual sinners in Hell. Nor am I interested in speculation.

But you have said that you know that God punishes those in hell ‘according to the nature and severity of their sins’. I’d like to know where this information comes from.

I refer you to my post # 176.

OK - if you said you were mistaken about the degree of punishment, then all good.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

If I have* this many button |||| and I then add this many ||| then I will have this *many buttons in all. |||| |||
The number of buttons in my possession will be the same regardless whether I do my counting in base two, base six, base ten or base twelve. The symbols used to express that total will look different depending on the base being used, but the reality will be the same.
I will not have more or fewer actual buttons if I count in base eight than if I count in base twelve. The truth will be the same.

The equation of “1 + 1 = 1” is true in Boolean arithmetic. The equation of “1 + 1 = 0” is true when the “+” sign is used as an exclusive “or” (XOR). The point is that in math everything hinges upon the axioms. In math everything is relative to the axioms.

You say morality has no axioms. Have you ever heard of a nation where men boast proudly of how cowardly they are, or pride themselves on their treachery, or urge their children to practice the virtue of sloth? Different cultures may disagree with each other over how a man should prove his bravery, but everyone agrees that courage is praiseworthy.

I don’t agree. I think that courage is stupid. So what now?

 

[Reepicheep]

The equation of “1 + 1 = 1” is true in Boolean arithmetic. The equation of “1 + 1 = 0” is true when the “+” sign is used as an exclusive “or” (XOR). The point is that in math everything hinges upon the axioms. In math everything is relative to the axioms.

If you state the same truth in different ways it’s still the same truth.

I don’t agree. I think that courage is stupid. So what now?

(Raised eyebrows) So you think cowardice is praiseworthy? I am skeptical of this.

And we’ve reached the point of quibbling over words.

Not only you, Vera, and in fact not mostly you. Bradski too.

Reepicheep has left the thread

 

[rcwitness]

Maybe you can clarify the situation by explaining the degrees of punishment meted out as reep has implied. I’d not heard of it before.

Hell is the absence of God. Through sin, we push Him away. And worse, we persecute Him. He has desired our forgiveness and repentance so greatly, that he suffered in the flesh, and unto a torturous death.

We were created “in His image”! To sin against Him and resist the reconciliation He offers, is to deeply offend the image we were created in and by. There is a profound anguish, loss, pain, torment, a person will experience when coming face to face with this reality and conviction.

You do not see, right now, because you are blind. And I am blind too! But we will see perfectly when we are brought before Him. Right now, we can only trust and see by faith, what we are convicted of. But soon, we will see what is the Truth. And it is a Person, who is reality. When we reject that Person, we are lost in darkness. We are at odds with ourselves and our own peace and comfort.

The Lake of Fire is created for those who reject Him and do not seek His reconciliation. To each person, they have their own deeds, and the evil spirits who deceived them, to torment them. Their torment won’t be apart from their own rejection of God, but precisely their own rejection and persecution of God.

 

[rcwitness]

You weren’t told that if you did not believe then you were bound for hell? Nobody mentioned hell at all?

When did you get to hear about it? After you decided you were Christian?

Nope. Not a single time.

Scripture has convicted us of the wrath of God many times.

Daniel 9
Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and supplications with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and terrible God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from thy commandments and ordinances; we have not listened to thy servants the prophets, who spoke in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. To thee, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us confusion of face, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those that are near and those that are far away, in all the lands to which thou hast driven them, because of the treachery which they have committed against thee. To us, O Lord, belongs confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee. To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness; because we have rebelled against him, and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God by following his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. All Israel has transgressed thy law and turned aside, refusing to obey thy voice. And the curse and oath which are written in the law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him. He has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us and against our rulers who ruled us, by bringing upon us a great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done the like of what has been done against Jerusalem. As it is written in the law of Moses, all this calamity has come upon us, yet we have not entreated the favor of the Lord our God, turning from our iniquities and giving heed to thy truth. Therefore the Lord has kept ready the calamity and has brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which he has done, and we have not obeyed his voice. And now, O Lord our God, who didst bring thy people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast made thee a name, as at this day, we have sinned, we have done wickedly. O Lord, according to all thy righteous acts, let thy anger and thy wrath turn away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy hill; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people have become a byword among all who are round about us. Now therefore, O our God, hearken to the prayer of thy servant and to his supplications, and for thy own sake, O Lord, cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary, which is desolate. O my God, incline thy ear and hear; open thy eyes and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name; for we do not present our supplications before thee on the ground of our righteousness, but on the ground of thy great mercy. O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, give heed and act; delay not, for thy own sake, O my God, because thy city and thy people are called by thy name.”

Mark 16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

John 3
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I don’t think anyone at all would be surprised. Disappointed, but not surprised.

What I do find remarkable in this debate is that atheists and agnistics will happily raise the example of those raised in the church who later chose to be atheist, agnostic, or non-theist, but ignore the testimonials of those of us who really were raised to “make our own decision” and talk about the difficulties of such an upbringing. Surely your own stories tell that an early education isn’t brainwashing, and doesn’t preclude a later contradictory opinion from forming?

Long time no see Casslean!

I think those who make their own decisions as adults are more likely to stick with the Faith.

 

[SuperLuigi]

You both are assuming/projecting that the meme is specifying the Christian faith, when it is not.It is implying all religions…and more.

From your comments, then I assume you think it’s totally fine for parents to bring their kids up as Scientologists or any other religion and tell them they are the truth faiths, yes?

That doesn’t make sense.
A child isn’t born believing in any gods, which means they are at that time atheists.

.

The Catholic Church has been very clear about the need for religious freedom.

 

[inocente]

“Believe or burn” is not the Christian way. Pointing out that there are sinners, even horrible sinners, in our past does not prove that it is.

Your last sentence is perfectly true. It just is not what Christianity teaches. I was raised to believe in Jesus. I was most emphatically not threatened with punishments if I did not believe. Nor did I see other children being so threatened.

And I don’t recall at what point in my life that I learned there were people who would threaten other people with Hell for not believing. I do know that I learned to think very poorly of ‘hellfire and brimstone’ preaching–which in any case I heard over TV from some Protestant preachers but didn’t hear from Catholic priests.

And yet just a few posts further on, another Catholic says…

The Lake of Fire is created for those who reject Him and do not seek His reconciliation. To each person, they have their own deeds, and the evil spirits who deceived them, to torment them. Their torment won’t be apart from their own rejection of God, but precisely their own rejection and persecution of God.

… and children of Catholics look at CAF and see posts like that all the time.

According to which, a child who does not accept what she is told to believe will be burned at the stake for ever and ever, and right now is controlled by evil spirits. And if children don’t pick up that message online, they will get it somewhere else. Because the poster who wrote that was once a child, and must have been taught that threat otherwise he/she wouldn’t know it to be passing it on now.

(rcwitness - appreciate your ‘brother to all Christians’ sig. )

 

[Bradski]

A child isn’t born believing in any gods, which means they are at that time atheists.

I’ve used the first clause myself. Which implies atheism. But I believe that people self identify as such. Just as I believe that you can’t class a child as being Christian or Muslim - she must make that call herself.

I was listening to an online debate a day or so ago and I think it was Sam Harris that suggested that the term really should be redundant. We have no equivalent, for example, for those who don’t believe in, say, astrology.

And I think on this forum, as well as others, whenever anyone is debating with an atheist, people accept that a conscious decision has been made that the evidence for gods are not sufficient for belief.

 

[rcwitness]

And yet just a few posts further on, another Catholic says…

… and children of Catholics look at CAF and see posts like that all the time.

According to which, a child who does not accept what she is told to believe will be burned at the stake for ever and ever, and right now is controlled by evil spirits.

We do practice Infant Baptism for a reason. Though, it’s not because we believe all Children go to hell if they were not Baptized. Yet, there is a promise that they will not go to hell if they are Baptized.

And if children don’t pick up that message online, they will get it somewhere else. Because the poster who wrote that was once a child, and must have been taught that threat otherwise he/she wouldn’t know it to be passing it on now.

The message in the poster is not a warning to repent to God, and believe that He sent Jesus His Son.

(rcwitness - appreciate your ‘brother to all Christians’ sig. )

My religion… thank you. May I ask what your thought are, regarding the message in the poster?

 

[rcwitness]

I think those who make their own decisions as adults are more likely to stick with the Faith.

This is pretty much stating the obvious. Those who make a conscious belief when reaching adulthood are sticking with the faith. The question is rather, are we more likely to follow in the way we are guided as children?

I can offer my child an education to what different religions believe, but the one my own children will be exposed to through actual participation and initiation is my own. Why would I believe something I would not believe, with all my heart, my children will benefit from?

The fact that some people are bad examples, or that we sometimes contradict the faith we are trying to live by, is only a testimony to the need for the perfect One to forgive our faults.

 

[rcwitness]

If someone wishes to protect children from injustice, is it good to convince us to withhold Baptism and faith formation from them? Or is it better to admonish unChristian behavior and encourage being a wise and faithful steward?

 

[rcwitness]

This doesn’t seem to be correct. I know a lot of people who are not theists and they are not in hell.
Where are you getting this info? Do you know anyone in hell?

We are in the Land of the Living. No one is deprived of God, in this world. He is with us. I did not say atheists are in hell…

*Deeply offend the image? *Not sure…what that means…
If we are made in a God’s image and this god is all-knowing, and we “sin”, then that would mean this God sins too and knows we are going to sin as well, I take it.
So then…why so offended?

We are created to love serve and know God. To be in friendship and union with Him. We are not God, but created by Him with the capacity to know Him through reason and faith. To sin against His law is to contradict the nature He gives us. To contradict His nature, is to be at odds with life itself.

Bradski blind? He’s one of the smartest, non-lost-in-darkness people I e-know.

According to you. According to God, no one sees the Spirit, unless the Spirit opens our eyes. It does not matter how smart someone is. That is not the measure for eternal life.

John 9
Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of man?” He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who speaks to you.” He said, “Lord, I believe”; and he worshiped him. Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” Some of the Pharisees near him heard this, and they said to him, “Are we also blind?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

Lake of fire? Is this the one mentioned in the Christian canon?
We are not even sure who wrote Revelations, if that is what you are referring to–there was much debate to not include it in the final canon at all for that reason. Dionysius wrote a treatise explaining that Revelation could not have been written by the author of the Gospel of John and many scholars have detailed why it was not John the son of Zebedee.
So…one reason among many why a lot of people do not worry or believe in this “lake of fire” situation.

Alot of people does not make something true or untrue. The book is part of Sacred Scripture.

 

[rcwitness]

Would it not set them up more so for this “lake of fire” if they are baptized?

No.

A child can still be encouraged and taught to be wise and good without going through a baptism ritual.

Of course. Are you claiming that is more wise? Are you saying that other parents should raise their children with your principles?

 

[rcwitness]

This doesn’t seem to be correct. I know a lot of people who are not theists and they are not in hell.
Where are you getting this info? Do you know anyone in hell?

2 Thessalonians 1
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering— since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfil every good resolve and work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[rcwitness]

You both are assuming/projecting that the meme is specifying the Christian faith, when it is not.It is implying all religions…and more.

From your comments, then I assume you think it’s totally fine for parents to bring their kids up as Scientologists or any other religion and tell them they are the truth faiths, yes?

Yes. Parents should have the God given right to raise their children according to their beliefs. A noble and just government should in force laws against inhumane treatment. It is not other parents minor children that we seek to influence, but the parents. They are the guardians of their souls. It is they who we appeal to.

That doesn’t make sense.
A child isn’t born believing in any gods, which means they are at that time atheists.

A child is born not knowing God. This doesn’t mean they believe God doesn’t exist. Atheism believes God does not exist. A child under the age of reason cannot make either assent of belief.

The Church does not know the Lord’s judgment on infants who die before the capacity to believe in God. It’s possible they are all welcomed into His life, or that He tests their hearts, or only Baptized infants are saved. I think the whole “Limbo” theology just shows that our knowledge of the judgment of infants is in Limbo. It doesn’t mean Limbo is a legitimate concept. I personally believe Baptized infants who die as infants, enter directly. And those who die without Baptism go through a purgatory. But it’s just my partially formed opinion.

 

[goout]

That doesn’t make sense.
A child isn’t born believing in any gods, which means they are at that time atheists.
.

Nonsense.
Sounds like fundamentalism: “YOU ARE BORN BELIEVING MY RELIGION!”

A child does not come out of the womb making a conscious choice for any religion. They have not reached the age of reason.

But, a child (any human being) is wired to seek truth, to find meaning, to find purpose, to grow in understanding, to know others, to believe something concrete, etc…and that pursuit is more cognitive as the child matures.
Even the future atheist is wired to these things.

 

[benhur]

About 70% of the planet’s population follows one of the three major religions. It influences their actions, their politics, their beliefs…

Wouldn’t it be a good idea to have some understanding of what each of those religions entails?

Hi Brad,

OK pretty basic , but I would be weary of seeking understanding at the cost of any truth that sustains one’s own culture. I mean one should also study the current forms of government found on planet earth but…backbone is needed first to know and hold on to any good truth on the matter.

Another words would not want to study anything as a mere relative truth.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

You both are assuming/projecting that the meme is specifying the Christian faith, when it is not.It is implying all religions…and more.

HI DG,

Well maybe ,maybe not that we “assume”. The meme is very clear on at least picking on Christianity here with the ickthus. Christianity is under attack in the West because she has stood so tall there, but one can include other religions in the attack here to obfuscate that matter.

Blessings

 

[PRmerger]

You both are assuming/projecting that the meme is specifying the Christian faith, when it is not.It is implying all religions…and more.

I think you need to look at the meme again, DG.

Look at what brand is being held up to the baby…

At any rate, let’s assume that it’s all religions…and more.

It doesn’t change anything about my response.

We “brand” our children all the time.

Why should our children be protected from religious truths?