Religion, Parenthood, Brainwashing and Branding

[rcwitness]

Inocente, I will leave you with one more Scripture passage to consider. But also, I do agree with you, that the Pharisees and Scribes (though not strictly all) were entrenched in legalism. Christ’s Law of Love, forgiveness, mercy and faith must accompany and base all actions, obedience, and doctrine.

Matthew 22 The Parable of the Wedding Banquet

And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have made ready my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves are killed, and everything is ready; come to the marriage feast.’ But they made light of it and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good; so the wedding hall was filled with guests.

“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

We cannot read Scripture without seeing the warning to those who reject the Gospel news. The Gospel is the invitation to receive the free gift of life and reconciliation to God the creator. The reason there is such a heavy and dark consequence for rejecting the Gospel, is because of the dear cost that was paid to offer that gift to us. To dismiss the sacrifice God made in Jesus Christ, is the greatest disrespect one can show the Father. It was His own priceless offering for all! It was His most cherished gift. There is nothing greater, in heaven or on Earth. And woe to those who pursue other things and put aside the Son of God.

 

[inocente]

Jesus spoke of hell more than anyone in the bible, and, “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom and understanding” which I hope we agree is taking the entirety of His truth and reality of life/afterlife…not just “fire and brimstone” and not just feel good sentiments. They go together.

I think we’re agreed except for this paragraph. In Catholicism, fear of the Lord is traditionally one of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. It’s a sense of awe and reverence, not a terror of eternal punishment:

catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/tp/Gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit.htm
catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-seven-gifts-of-the-holy-spirit

Notice that wisdom is also a gift of the Spirit. And that’s spiritual wisdom, not worldly wisdom (1 Cor 1:18-31).

LOL. Really ? Miley? I know, I know, God can speak out of the mouth of babes, or even a jackass.

Yet why does Jesus also say "Judge but judge righteously " ? The fact is God has not left us ignorant of His ways, that we can have the mind of Christ, for the Spirit discerns all things. He has given us keys, to enter in accord with His will, which includes how He will judge indeed.

The description of the mind of Christ in Phil 2 says “in humility value others above yourselves”. And if you’re quoting from John 7, the line is “Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly”.

We can judge actions, but we have no say in who goes to heaven or hell. There’s one King, and all the rest of us are his subjects. He judges who goes on his right and on his left (Matt 25). Whatever we think of Ms Cyrus, we don’t get a vote, not even a little bit. It’s a Kingdom, not a democratic republic, the King alone decides. And notice that parable is also about acting with mercy, for the King ignores the brands of belief of his subjects.

 

[rcwitness]

We can judge actions, but we have no say in who goes to heaven or hell. There’s one King, and all the rest of us are his subjects. He judges who goes on his right and on his left (Matt 25). Whatever we think of Ms Cyrus, we don’t get a vote, not even a little bit. It’s a Kingdom, not a democratic republic, the King alone decides. And notice that parable is also about acting with mercy, for the King ignores the brands of belief of his subjects.

Ok, so this is where your concern lies! Yes, you are correct. If I gave the impression that I am able to judge who’s heart has believed and who’s has denied God, then I apologize. Only Christ can know the heart of men. He alone judges the soul of a person.

I am talking about whether someone has truly rejected the Gospel and the reconciliation that He offers, in their heart. I’m not telling anyone what is in their heart, or determining what they believe. That is for them.

My children, until they reach the age of reason and understanding, are under my house, my faith, and the forgiveness of Original Sin through Baptism. This also includes the necessary instruction and example I am called to provide them as a Christian myself. It is my duty to bring my children, who is a gift from above, back to Him who gave their life to us through procreation.

But faith and belief in our hearts cannot be concealed. The garment in the parable could be understood as our outward expression of our inward conviction.

 

[inocente]

We preach the Gospel. The Gospel does have a warning, which Jesus is clear about. All children, if there are any, reading this thread, can decide for themselves who is relating the Gospel more accurately. I have posted Scripture and Catholic Teaching to support my statements. Such as this:

Luke 10

So I’m Sodom now. I asked you where does the CCC teach what you said, and instead you call me Sodom.

I accept your surrender.

 

[rcwitness]

So I’m Sodom now. I asked you where does the CCC teach what you said, and instead you call me Sodom.

I accept your surrender.

How did you arrive at that conclusion??? You can interpret that, from what I posted, yet you cannot see the Scriptural and Catholic support for what I’ve asserted?

No! I am not calling you Sodom. You believe the Gospel, right? You accept the call to reconciliation through Jesus of Nazareth, right? You do not deny the Gospel, right? You have works which are led by faith in Jesus, right? If you can say yes to these, then who am I to judge your heart? But if you say no to these, then there is no need for judgment, since you would be confessing yourself.

 

[inocente]

Reminds me of a joke i heard the other day. A police officer gave a lady a traffic ticket. Upon handing it to her she told him thru the window, “You can go straight to hell !” There was a court hearing with the lady and officer present. The judge acquitted her of any wrongdoing with her comment, saying it was not a command or a desire but rather a point of fact.

*I just do not see how warning of a possible negative consequence is limiting freedom. (i wish it were, for then maybe hell would be a lot emptier, but apparently many people freely chose to go there, ignore any warning…freedom is not infringed one bit with a “point of fact”).
If only folks would fearfully respect the Padrino’s warnings like in the movie. We are told the warning will be refused much more than not.

Now if you do not believe in hell , that is another matter, and it would then be at least coercion, and much worse I would say to warn of it. “The simple go on and be punished.”*

You do realize that the Padrino is a gangster who terrorizes people to get his own way and who murders anyone who gets in his way? And this is who you think we should fearfully respect?

Coercion is not making empty threats, coercion is intimidation. “I’ll make him an offer he can’t refuse” means “I’ll tell him to give me all I want or I’ll kill his wife and children”.

You don’t really think that’s what Christ wants, surely?

 

[rcwitness]

Inocente,

Can I get something straight? Do you believe those who do not believe the Gospel can still be saved? Is believing in the Gospel, with faith, not necessary to be saved (and I’m talking about those who both are able to understand and have heard/read the Gospel)? Are you simply disputing the way to preach (and in particular, to young people)?

 

[benhur]

:You do realize that the Padrino is a gangster who terrorizes people to get his own way and who murders anyone who gets in his way? And this is who you think we should fearfully respect?

Hi i,

Now who is being judgemental. LOL…

Reminds me of the Roman centurion, who was a pagan and for sure coerced people, even killed some if ordered to, and even ordered it also. Yet Jesus points to him as having great faith as in all Israel. The point being about the GodFather is that folks are given a choice, and they are discerning enough to believe in the forewarned outcomes. That is all, pleeease.

Of course the allegory is not the same as in spiritual matters, except for the discerning and belief that one way leads to death and the other life, so to speak.

Coercion is not making empty threats, coercion is intimidation. “I’ll make him an offer he can’t refuse” means “I’ll tell him to give me all I want or I’ll kill his wife and children”.

Of course the gospel is not coercion, nothing like the Godfather. "You can go straight to hell’ is not a coercion but a reality , much deeper and more serious because the Father has laid His life down to enable the right “decision” to go “straight to heaven” instead.

You don’t really think that’s what Christ wants, surely?

Correct , no coercion,everything in SELFLESS love. Do you believe Christ wants us to leave out the reality of hell ? Is that love ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I think we’re agreed except for this paragraph. In Catholicism, fear of the Lord is traditionally one of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. It’s a sense of awe and reverence, not a terror of eternal punishment:

catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/tp/Gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit.htm
catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-seven-gifts-of-the-holy-spirit

Notice that wisdom is also a gift of the Spirit. And that’s spiritual wisdom, not worldly wisdom (1 Cor 1:18-31).

Hi I ,

Agreed to the definition of “fear”. To be in awe of God’s words is to take them seriously , hence I stated both realities of heaven and hell. And yes to gifting of wisdom, not to be simple and be punished for folly. Hopefully you do not see, " the wages of sin is death" as coercive words from the Lord.

The description of the mind of Christ in Phil 2 says “in humility value others above yourselves”. And if you’re quoting from John 7, the line is “Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly”.

And do we value others as more than ourselves if we do not warn them from a fate that which we have been saved from ?

We can judge actions, but we have no say in who goes to heaven or hell.

Correct. As I stated , Jesus, or as Ciley says, God judges. We all agree we stand before the Father at our death, and before the Lord at the resurrection when the books are brought out. One on one.

If we judge actions then we agree that the Lord left us the spirit and standard by which to judge by. Can we agree that He also shared with us the standard by which He will judge the eternity of souls ?

Again have not heard from you if you believe in hell, and if indeed it is part of the gospel message.

for the King ignores the brands of belief of his subjects.

Yes, we will not go by those names (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, Latin Rite, etc., etc.) beyond the Pearly Gates…our id tags will only say “washed by the Blood of the Lamb” and maybe a private name between one and the Lord.

Blessings

 

[Aloysium]

I suppose some people believe free will has to do with doing what you want without consequence.
Our actions have meaning, psychological, social, ethical, reflecting their being more than physical processes and ultimately spiritual.
Every end but love is transient, illusory when believed to provide some lasting happiness, and leaving those who cling to it, in pain.
Sin seen as actions directed towards self-gratification and holding other goods above God, cannot but lead to death.
A heads-up as to where we are heading, possibly hell, is hardly coercion.
Hell starts right here. That the rich man was enthralled with his wealth, required an active denial of Lazarus’ plight, an uncaring attitude that is the antithesis of heaven.

 

[inocente]

How did you arrive at that conclusion??? You can interpret that, from what I posted, yet you cannot see the Scriptural and Catholic support for what I’ve asserted?

No! I am not calling you Sodom. You believe the Gospel, right? You accept the call to reconciliation through Jesus of Nazareth, right? You do not deny the Gospel, right? You have works which are led by faith in Jesus, right? If you can say yes to these, then who am I to judge your heart? But if you say no to these, then there is no need for judgment, since you would be confessing yourself.

Suppose someone named Sandra, a Sikh, turns up and tells me about her religion. She says if I don’t accept her religion I’ll burn forever. Then Benito the Buddhist arrives, and tells me and Sandra when we die we’ll be annihilated if we reject what he says. (This is for the sake of argument, real Sikhs and Buddhists don’t play such games). Then you arrive and say we must all be Christians or else. And so on.

Now, this is a philosophy forum, so what’s your logical argument as to why I should believe you and not any of the others? Why not just do the obvious thing and ignore all of you?

Inocente,

Can I get something straight? Do you believe those who do not believe the Gospel can still be saved? Is believing in the Gospel, with faith, not necessary to be saved (and I’m talking about those who both are able to understand and have heard/read the Gospel)? Are you simply disputing the way to preach (and in particular, to young people)?

The notion that the God of infinite love and mercy sends people to a lake of fire forever and ever, even though they acted with kindness and mercy all their lives, just because they used the free-will which God himself gave them? In my church that’s nothing to do with the gospel.

 

[rinnie]

So I saw this meme on Facebook today…

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/38/33/f3/3833f3567005a48e26581de1cf2731b4.jpg

IOW: it’s a cruel and abusive form of parenting to brand your child with a religious identity.
Just like no parent should tell a child, “No! You don’t like latkes! Your favorite food is fish!”…no parent should tell a child, “You are a Christian!” That’s a form of brainwashing.

Thoughts?

Not in the RCC. IF we brainwashed our Children they would all still go to Church every Sunday and there would be no such thing as a Protestant Church.

 

[inocente]

Hi i,

Now who is being judgemental. LOL…

Reminds me of the Roman centurion, who was a pagan and for sure coerced people, even killed some if ordered to, and even ordered it also. Yet Jesus points to him as having great faith as in all Israel. The point being about the GodFather is that folks are given a choice, and they are discerning enough to believe in the forewarned outcomes. That is all, pleeease.

If the centurion was even remotely like the Godfather, Jesus would would condemn him. God would never praise anyone who terrorizes and intimidates. If you were a Baptist I’d want to correct you, but as you’re not I think we should stop this conversation now, as there’s nowhere it can go from here.

 

[PRmerger]

Not in the RCC. IF we brainwashed our Children they would all still go to Church every Sunday and there would be no such thing as a Protestant Church.

True, dat.

 

[rcwitness]

Suppose someone named Sandra, a Sikh, turns up and tells me about her religion. She says if I don’t accept her religion I’ll burn forever. Then Benito the Buddhist arrives, and tells me and Sandra when we die we’ll be annihilated if we reject what he says. (This is for the sake of argument, real Sikhs and Buddhists don’t play such games). Then you arrive and say we must all be Christians or else. And so on.

And then suppose the Son of God came to bring the good news of reconciliation to God through belief and Baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity. What if we don’t believe Him?

Now, this is a philosophy forum, so what’s your logical argument as to why I should believe you and not any of the others? Why not just do the obvious thing and ignore all of you?

Because it’s not merely me, but the Son of God. Did you think that I, or some men, have just suggested the Gospel as if it’s a creation of our imagination?

The notion that the God of infinite love and mercy sends people to a lake of fire forever and ever, even though they acted with kindness and mercy all their lives, just because they used the free-will which God himself gave them? In my church that’s nothing to do with the gospel.

So you think that someone can act with kindness and mercy all their lives and never need the reconciliation of Jesus of Nazareth? Do their “good deeds” justify denying the Son of God, OR… do they prepare them to receive the Revelation of the new and everlasting Covenant in the body and blood of Jesus with great joy? You see, you are implying a good person,with love and mercy in their heart and lives, may decide that the Gospel is false! We say, a person who has these good virtues is already eager to receive the Gospel of Jesus!

Your Church MUST be an independent church, because I don’t know any who would teach what you are implying.

 

[inocente]

And then suppose the Son of God came to bring the good news of reconciliation to God through belief and Baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity. What if we don’t believe Him?

Circular argument - I must believe the guy who says he is Jesus because he says he’s Jesus. Btw, Jesus is a common first name in Spain. And anyway, suppose Sandra the Sikh has even better good news?

Because it’s not merely me, but the Son of God. Did you think that I, or some men, have just suggested the Gospel as if it’s a creation of our imagination?

If I had a cent for everyone on the internet who says God is on their side. But here’s a logical argument:

The Church argues for freedom of religion and freedom of conscience in Dignitatis humanae. The argument is basically that human dignity demands it.

Now the Church never opposes God, so we can be confident that God is also for freedom of religion.

Therefore God cannot possibly agree that “a Lake of Fire is created for those who reject Him”, because even if you want to say that’s only a warning, it would mean no one can be free to follow her conscience.

So you think that someone can act with kindness and mercy all their lives and never need the reconciliation of Jesus of Nazareth? Do their “good deeds” justify denying the Son of God, OR… do they prepare them to receive the Revelation of the new and everlasting Covenant in the body and blood of Jesus with great joy? You see, you are implying a good person,with love and mercy in their heart and lives, may decide that the Gospel is false! We say, a person who has these good virtues is already eager to receive the Gospel of Jesus!

Your Church MUST be an independent church, because I don’t know any who would teach what you are implying.

A child who happens to have Baptist parents and never bothers to question what she is told and never acts on it cannot possibly be better prepared than an atheist who acts with mercy and kindness all her life. The gospel isn’t pious thoughts and pretty theories, it’s about action.

I’m not saying anything even remotely unorthodox here, many Christians accept soul competency as basic to the gospel message of human dignity.

 

[rinnie]

I practiced family law for quite a while, and a judge made an excellent point when deciding a matter between two parents, one of whom wanted to be able to raise her children in the Catholic faith, while the other, an atheist, wanted them completely insulated from it on the basis that they should be able to “make their own choice.”

He looked at the atheist and said, “How can they make an informed choice if they’ve never been exposed to the faith?”

I was raised without a faith. I was raised by parents who believed they were letting their children make their own decisions. I don’t recommend it. You can always choose to leave a path that you’re on, but it’s very hard to find a path if you’re just wandering aimlessly in the wilderness.

I agree introduce that Child to God from the beginning. That way when you are not here they will always feel the presence of their true Father in heaven looking out for them. How could telling a Child that they have a Father in heaven who loves them beyond any measure ever hurt them.

 

[rcwitness]

Circular argument - I must believe the guy who says he is Jesus because he says he’s Jesus. Btw, Jesus is a common first name in Spain. And anyway, suppose Sandra the Sikh has even better good news?

Yes, we must believe that the person of Jesus, in Scripture and Church sacrament, is the Son of God. That’s the whole point. If one does not believe He is the Son of God, that person denies who God is. They do not know Him who came to call us to Himself. “My sheep hear my voice.”.

If I had a cent for everyone on the internet who says God is on their side. But here’s a logical argument:

I’m not saying God is on “my side”. He is on His own side, and struggles for all men to side with God.

The Church argues for freedom of religion and freedom of conscience in Dignitatis humanae. The argument is basically that human dignity demands it.

Yes, we have repeatedly acknowledged that man’s free will is not violated just because there is a warning for denying the Gospel of the Son of God. If there is a bridge that will fall if you continue on your road, and someone says, “Don’t go that way, it leads to death. Go this way, that I prepared for you.”, and you decide that it’s not true and you continue on your way. Is your freedom of choice (free will) violated? And when you get to the bridge, and it falls, was the warning not true?

Now the Church never opposes God, so we can be confident that God is also for freedom of religion.

Yes, so?

Therefore God cannot possibly agree that “a Lake of Fire is created for those who reject Him”, because even if you want to say that’s only a warning, it would mean no one can be free to follow her conscience.

You are not making rational sense. Someone can still make a free choice. It just happens to lead to death.

A child who happens to have Baptist parents and never bothers to question what she is told and never acts on it cannot possibly be better prepared than an atheist who acts with mercy and kindness all her life. The gospel isn’t pious thoughts and pretty theories, it’s about action.

So what action does the Gospel call for? And what happens if that action is denied?

 

[rcwitness]

I’m not saying anything even remotely unorthodox here, many Christians accept soul competency as basic to the gospel message of human dignity.

You are not supporting this theology. You are arguing something different. Here is what your link states:

…Instead, under this view, each person is responsible to God for his or her own personal faith in Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection.

What you are arguing, is that one can deny the Truth of the Gospel, and yet there is no condemnation for that choice.

 

[benhur]

Yes, we must believe that the person of Jesus, in Scripture and Church sacrament, is the Son of God. That’s the whole point. If one does not believe He is the Son of God, that person denies who God is. They do not know Him who came to call us to Himself. “My sheep hear my voice.”.

I’m not saying God is on “my side”. He is on His own side, and struggles for all men to side with God.

Yes, we have repeatedly acknowledged that man’s free will is not violated just because there is a warning for denying the Gospel of the Son of God. If there is a bridge that will fall if you continue on your road, and someone says, “Don’t go that way, it leads to death. Go this way, that I prepared for you.”, and you decide that it’s not true and you continue on your way. Is your freedom of choice (free will) violated? And when you get to the bridge, and it falls, was the warning not true?

Yes, so?

You are not making rational sense. Someone can still make a free choice. It just happens to lead to death.

So what action does the Gospel call for? And what happens if that action is denied?

RC,

If I may butt in but isn’t somewhere said that we as fallen creatures are indeed not free to choose righteousness, that we are captive to the power of this world, to unrighteousness. Can a blind man see the fork in the road ? Like we need to be set free, we need regeneration, we need the Holy Spirit, to even choose righteousness ?

Would that make the whole idea of freedom from coercion mute ?

Don’t get me wrong, i believe in freedom of conscience and freewill, but with explanation as to the above. As Paul says, that He even causes our will to be for Him…Just a thought.

Blessings