Religion, Parenthood, Brainwashing and Branding

[mikekle]

We all make up our own mind, luv, if we are given the gift of living past the age of reason.

Correct. We don’t inculcate our children with a belief system because they have to have a religion.

We inculcate them with a belief system because it’s true.

#truthtrumpseverything

The problem is, every religion thinks theirs is the one true version.

I would venture to assume most of us on here were raised in christian homes, we were taught these beliefs from childhood, that has a HUGE impact on what you believe as an adult. 99.9% of catholics I know had christian parents and a christian upbringing, the same can be said about the pentecostals I know, if they were raised in that faith from childhood, its likely THAT is what they believe to be true.

This meme is doing the same thing it speaks against, but it would really be impossible to truly raise a child without instilling them with some kind of belief

 

[PRmerger]

The problem is, every religion thinks theirs is the one true version.

Not sure why this is a “problem”?

That there are multiple false religions doesn’t mean that one religion can’t be actually the true religion.

 

[PRmerger]

I would venture to assume most of us on here were raised in christian homes, we were taught these beliefs from childhood, that has a HUGE impact on what you believe as an adult. 99.9% of catholics I know had christian parents and a christian upbringing, the same can be said about the pentecostals I know, if they were raised in that faith from childhood, its likely THAT is what they believe to be true.

Irrelevant.

Most of us here were raised in homes where we were taught that women shouldn’t be hit.(Whether we witnessed a hypocrisy in this…and actually saw a woman being beaten by her husband is irrelevant, so let me preempt that right now).

Does that mean that it’s actually not true and that it’s absolutely permissible to hit a woman?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I think it’s safe to assume that no-one believes that about babies. Can you imagine anyone actually believing it and not mentioning it in so many posts? ‘I baptised my child to make sure she didn’t suffer eternal torment’. Seems like the Number One reason with daylight second.

And I personally know people who had their child baptised in the Catholic faith to ensure acceptance into a Catholic school. Abhorrent in my view. A simple ceremony certainly didn’t make that child ‘a Catholic child’. But it seems that if the parents are actually Catholic, then it does.

Personally, in that case, I would class the kid as a child of Catholic parents.

You don’t need to be Catholic to go to Catholic school. I know plenty of atheists who send their kids to Catholic school, because the education is better.

I am glad I was baptized Catholic. It gave me an identity and even though I fell away from religion at one point in my life, I was able to go back “home” to the Catholic church. It felt wonderful.

 

[zz912]

You parents didn’t teach you what constitutes morality? Someone mentioned earlier that we do, and should, tell our children how to be worthwhile members of society. How to treat others. How to show respect. How to be considerate. What constitutes fairness and justice.

Many Muslim groups consider honor killings “fair” and “just”. Many Hindus believe in a caste system where some people are “undesirable” and deserve nothing. Many atheist countries consider humans as replaceable cogs in the machine who can be destroyed if they interfere with the goals of the state.

You are unwittingly presupposing the Christian ethos you grew up surrounded by is what constitutes a universal, objective morality that all ascribe to without any grounding in faith. This is patently false.

There is no objective morality without an outside deity that sets the standard against which all morality is measured.

All parents should be doing this whatever their belief system. Whatever their religion. Whether they believe in a god or not. This is a given.

So honor killings and the caste system are ok with you?

And shame on anyone who claims that you need a particular religion to be a moral member of society.

You can BEHAVE morally by following the moral code set out by the Christian religion. But an atheist has no basis to claim they hold an objective moral code. It is merely subjective.

 

[Bradski]

You don’t need to be Catholic to go to Catholic school. I know plenty of atheists who send their kids to Catholic school, because the education is better.

True. Both my children went to Catholic schools. But their chances of getting in were significantly better if my wife and I were Catholics. Hence my non-Catholic friends who had their child baptised.

My wife thought that their chances would be significantly worse if I told the schools I was an atheist. I didn’t think so and thankfully it didn’t have any impact.

 

[Bradski]

So honor killings and the caste system are ok with you?

You can BEHAVE morally by following the moral code set out by the Christian religion. But an atheist has no basis to claim they hold an objective moral code. It is merely subjective.

Why on earth would I consider honour killings to be justifiable?

I think you might do well to brush up on the many and varied bases for morality, their proponents, their arguments and the sources for those arguments.

Christianity will be found in there somewhere but if you believe it is the only guide available for moral action, then you are sadly missing out on a gargantuan amount of philosophical literature covering the last 3,000 years.

 

[PRmerger]

Why on earth would I consider honour killings to be justifiable?

Emm…because you are a moral relativist?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

True. Both my children went to Catholic schools. But their chances of getting in were significantly better if my wife and I were Catholics. Hence my non-Catholic friends who had their child baptised.

My wife thought that their chances would be significantly worse if I told the schools I was an atheist. I didn’t think so and thankfully it didn’t have any impact.

What is your wife, by the way? Does she have a religion? I ask, because you said your children were surprised that you were an atheist. Your wife must be at least an agnostic?

 

[adamhovey1988]

I don’t want to make a generalization but the truth is atheists are brainwashed. One must be taught to be an atheist I think whether we admit it or not our natural inclination is to believe in some sort of higher power an atheist must be told about atheism, no one is an atheist in nature. I think the problem is the use of the term brainwash. Indoctrination is probably a better term and even then indoctrination is something everyone does. You tell someone your views you try to get them to believe your views that’s indoctrination. I became a Christian because I was skeptical of religion; a true skeptic can not be an atheist or an agnostic. I did what any good skeptic does I investigated the claims and found them compelling and then I put myself on that side of the fence. I think the problem is that people are saying make your own damn decisions and stuff like that well, since I was raised in a family that rarely ever went to church and wasn’t even baptized until I was 21 I would say I made my “own damn decision”. I can also tell you this, if God willing, I ever have kids I’m not going to do that to them they are going to be raised in the Church. I am also going to make sure they are well catechized because parents are the best teachers for stuff like this because kids tend to have a natural trust for parents. I do hope our atheist and agnostic friends here understand that I’m not trying to make light of their position I do understand why people would feel that way it’s just I feel they’re wrong and I feel that evidence backs up my claim. That little meme thingy isn’t cute nor is it funny. I came from one of those households where we made our own decisions and well I very much I’m happy with much of how my parents raised me I feel like we didn’t have that much of a moral grounding because I had to make my “own damn decision”.

 

[Bradski]

What is your wife, by the way? Does she have a religion? I ask, because you said your children were surprised that you were an atheist. Your wife must be at least an agnostic?

Brought up as a Christian, but with no regular church attendance. Atheist would probably be the best term to describe her.

I say my kids would have been surprised because, having attended Catholic schools, they assumed that having a religion would be the norm.

With no prompting from me, and you might not believe that but it’s true, they are both atheists. As are most of their peers. Which might sound astounding to any American forum members, but down here, in a country we call God’s Own, it’s the norm.

 

[casslean]

Brought up as a Christian, but with no regular church attendance. Atheist would probably be the best term to describe her.

I say my kids would have been surprised because, having attended Catholic schools, they assumed that having a religion would be the norm.

With no prompting from me, and you might not believe that but it’s true, they are both atheists. As are most of their peers. Which might sound astounding to any American forum members, but down here, in a country we call God’s Own, it’s the norm.

I don’t think anyone at all would be surprised. Disappointed, but not surprised.

What I do find remarkable in this debate is that atheists and agnistics will happily raise the example of those raised in the church who later chose to be atheist, agnostic, or non-theist, but ignore the testimonials of those of us who really were raised to “make our own decision” and talk about the difficulties of such an upbringing. Surely your own stories tell that an early education isn’t brainwashing, and doesn’t preclude a later contradictory opinion from forming?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Brought up as a Christian, but with no regular church attendance. Atheist would probably be the best term to describe her.

I say my kids would have been surprised because, having attended Catholic schools, they assumed that having a religion would be the norm.

With no prompting from me, and you might not believe that but it’s true, they are both atheists. As are most of their peers. Which might sound astounding to any American forum members, but down here, in a country we call God’s Own, it’s the norm.

Too bad. Are there many Catholic churches in Australia? I don’t really know when the Church entered Australia. I know most of the citizens are of ancestry from the British Isles (aside from the Asian population) so the established church must have been Anglican. Is the public school system poor there?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I don’t think anyone at all would be surprised. Disappointed, but not surprised.

What I do find remarkable in this debate is that atheists and agnistics will happily raise the example of those raised in the church who later chose to be atheist, agnostic, or non-theist, but ignore the testimonials of those of us who really were raised to “make our own decision” and talk about the difficulties of such an upbringing. Surely your own stories tell that an early education isn’t brainwashing, and doesn’t preclude a later contradictory opinion from forming?

Excellent point! It does seem hypocritical to send your children to Catholic school when you are an atheist and afraid of brainwashing!!

 

[Bradski]

Excellent point! It does seem hypocritical to send your children to Catholic school when you are an atheist and afraid of brainwashing!!

There is a difference in bringing a child up as a Catholic and having him attend a Catholic school.

I had no problem in either child being taught about religion. In fact, I think it’s quite important. And both their schools had curriculums that included comparative religion.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

There is a difference in bringing a child up as a Catholic and having him attend a Catholic school.

I had no problem in either child being taught about religion. In fact, I think it’s quite important. And both their schools had curriculums that included comparative religion.

ah! then Catholics aren’t so bad in your opinion, eh?

 

[Bradski]

ah! then Catholics aren’t so bad in your opinion, eh?

As they say…some of my best friends are Catholics.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Australia is a majority Christian but pluralistic society with no established religion. In 2011 there were approximately 5.4 million Australian Catholics (25.3% of the population). Catholicism arrived in Australia with the British First Fleet in 1788. The first Australian Catholics were mainly Irish, but Australian Catholics now originate from a great variety of national backgrounds. The church is a major provider of health, education and charitable services: Catholic Social Services Australia’s 63 member organisations help more than a million Australians every year; and the Catholic education system has more than 650,000 students (18% of student population).[1] Australia has 32 dioceses and 1,363 parishes. Catholic Religious Australia, the peak body for leaders of religious institutes and societies of apostolic life resident in Australia, comprises members from more than 180 congregations of sisters, brothers and religious priests living in Australia.

 

[goout]

People get confused about what morality (or “ethics”) is.

Morality is not an end in itself.
“I am an ethical (moral) person.”
Yea? So?
That only means you claim to evaluate acts, good or evil. As we know, an evaluation can mistakenly call good “evil”, and vice versa.

The determining factor for the validity of your evaluation is, the good which is the reference point for your evaluation. If no objective reference point is held, your evaluation is meaningless, because it is relative or subjective.

It is impossible to claim sound morality without deity as an objective reference point.

 

[PRmerger]

People get confused about what morality (or “ethics”) is.

Morality is not an end in itself.
“I am an ethical (moral) person.”
Yea? So?
That only means you claim to evaluate acts, good or evil. As we know, an evaluation can mistakenly call good “evil”, and vice versa.

The determining factor for the validity of your evaluation is, the good which is the reference point for your evaluation. If no objective reference point is held, your evaluation is meaningless, because it is relative or subjective.

It is impossible to claim sound morality without deity as an objective reference point.

Precisely.

Each and every time an atheist claims that, say, honor killings are wrong…he is tacitly acknowledging the existence of an objective reference point.

Our job is to get him to go from tacitly acknowledging it to actually acknowledging it.