Religion, Parenthood, Brainwashing and Branding

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People get confused about what morality (or “ethics”) is.

Morality is not an end in itself.
“I am an ethical (moral) person.”
Yea? So?
That only means you claim to evaluate acts, good or evil. As we know, an evaluation can mistakenly call good “evil”, and vice versa.

The determining factor for the validity of your evaluation is, the good which is the reference point for your evaluation. If no objective reference point is held, your evaluation is meaningless, because it is relative or subjective.

It is impossible to claim sound morality without deity as an objective reference point.
Using your ‘objective refence point’ doesn’t appear to work either. So many opinions on the difference between right and wrong.

Tell me if you have it right all the time. If you do, I have a few problems you can solve for me. If not, then how on earth do you know who does?

A couple of blazingly simple questions for you…
 
So I saw this meme on Facebook today…

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/38/33/f3/3833f3567005a48e26581de1cf2731b4.jpg

IOW: it’s a cruel and abusive form of parenting to brand your child with a religious identity.
Just like no parent should tell a child, “No! You don’t like latkes! Your favorite food is fish!”…no parent should tell a child, “You are a Christian!” That’s a form of brainwashing.

Thoughts?
Merriam Webster
brainwashing
1: a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas
2: persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

You must mean 2, but Encyclopedia Britannia states that propaganda now has a negative connotation but was neutral before. So then the choice of the word brainwashing is negative to begin with.

To baptize an infant and raise in the Catholic faith is good. Being baptized makes the infant a Catholic. Later will be a decision to cooperate with it.
 
Well everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

My experience has been that “Branded” or not, a child will ultimately make up their own minds.
How many threads here talk about children leaving the faith…even leaving Christianity?

Peace
James
Yes… opinions are sure to come (inevitable). What we do with our children’s Baptism and formation is our right, our responsibility, our conviction and our privilege.
 
Using your ‘objective refence point’ doesn’t appear to work either. So many opinions on the difference between right and wrong.
But you’ve already acknowledged in numerous discussions in the past that someone’s opinion can be just, plain, wrong.

So the above objection is otiose, no?

One can have many opinions on whether turnips taste better mashed or fried…and no opinion on this is right or wrong…that’s because there is no objective reference point here.

One can have many opinions on whether honor killings are moral…but some of these opinions are WRONG…and that’s because there is an objective reference point here.

(Unless you want to say to someone who wants to kill his daughter for having the audacity of being raped, like someone who thinks turnips are better fried, “Sure, that’s entirely fine for you to want to do this!”)?
 
Merriam Webster
brainwashing
1: a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas
2: persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

You must mean 2, but Encyclopedia Britannia states that propaganda now has a negative connotation but was neutral before. So then the choice of the word brainwashing is negative to begin with.

To baptize an infant and raise in the Catholic faith is good. Being baptized makes the infant a Catholic. Later will be a decision to cooperate with it.
I wouldn’t focus too much on the terminology.

The message of the meme is what I’d like to discuss.
 
I wouldn’t focus too much on the terminology.

The message of the meme is what I’d like to discuss.
Shown are brands applied at birth: fish, cross, crescent, Star of David, pentacle. The implication from the script is that the children are prevented from developing their own.
 
Shown are brands applied at birth: fish, cross, crescent, Star of David, pentagram. The implication from the script is that the children are prevented from developing their own.
Yep.
 
Using your ‘objective refence point’ doesn’t appear to work either. So many opinions on the difference between right and wrong.
This observation supports the point I am making.
Opinions are not an objective reference point, they are opinions. I know you know the difference. 🤷
Tell me if you have it right all the time. If you do, I have a few problems you can solve for me. If not, then how on earth do you know who does?
I don’t claim to be a “moral person”. No Christian worthy of the word would claim “moral” for him/herself, as if goodness itself resided in us. Morality is not * the arrival point*, it points the way to the good.
Scripture expresses this journey as “only God is good”. All others are on the way. We are evaluating life in reference to God. We do it imperfectly. There exists an objective reference point, and, life is still messy. The two are coexisting. There are competing versions of the destination.
When we claim to pursue morality in reference to the good, we are not claiming to possess it. If we possessed God, we would be God, right? We are not God, we are seeking God.

What “morality” means for a Christian is this:
I am willing to admit that an object good exists and submit myself to it. My thoughts, feelings, urges, opinions, reason, are all subject to the good (God).”
This is the only way a true moral evaluation can be made. You can’t make an evaluation when the goal post is moving side to side, eh? Or if you won’t even admit a goalpost exists. If you admit a goalpost exists, then there cannot be two goalposts, eh?
A couple of blazingly simple questions for you…
These questions are more than simple, they are profoundly simple. Because God is so profoundly simple, the challenging answers are frequently out of our reach, because human beings complicate things with our selves.
 
Shown are brands applied at birth: fish, cross, crescent, Star of David, pentacle. The implication from the script is that the children are prevented from developing their own.
Children (those under the age of reason) really don’t choose anything on their own. Parents have a privilege and responsibility to introduce and influence their children to the values and virtues of life. Those who oppose Christianity, do not value Christianity as from above, but consider it from man’s mind and ambition. They think that all religions and faith comes from our own human nature and imagination.

We know differently. Not from our flesh and blood, but Divine Revelation through the Trinity of God!
 
Children (those under the age of reason) really don’t choose anything on their own. Parents have a privilege and responsibility to introduce and influence their children to the values and virtues of life. Those who oppose Christianity, do not value Christianity as from above, but consider it from man’s mind and ambition. They think that all religions and faith comes from our own human nature and imagination.

We know differently. Not from our flesh and blood, but Divine Revelation through the Trinity of God!
Yes and the odd thing about Bradski is that he chose to raise his children by sending them to Catholic school, yet is an adamant atheist! Talk about giving your kids a mixed message!🤷
 
Yes and the odd thing about Bradski is that he chose to raise his children by sending them to Catholic school, yet is an adamant atheist! Talk about giving your kids a mixed message!🤷
Unlike some, I am not inclined to have my children believe what I believe. I prefer them to have as much information as possible so that they can decide themselves.
 
This observation supports the point I am making.
Opinions are not an objective reference point, they are opinions. I know you know the difference. 🤷

I don’t claim to be a “moral person”. No Christian worthy of the word would claim “moral” for him/herself, as if goodness itself resided in us. Morality is not * the arrival point*, it points the way to the good.
Scripture expresses this journey as “only God is good”. All others are on the way. We are evaluating life in reference to God. We do it imperfectly. There exists an objective reference point, and, life is still messy. The two are coexisting. There are competing versions of the destination.
When we claim to pursue morality in reference to the good, we are not claiming to possess it. If we possessed God, we would be God, right? We are not God, we are seeking God.

What “morality” means for a Christian is this:
I am willing to admit that an object good exists and submit myself to it. My thoughts, feelings, urges, opinions, reason, are all subject to the good (God).”
This is the only way a true moral evaluation can be made. You can’t make an evaluation when the goal post is moving side to side, eh? Or if you won’t even admit a goalpost exists. If you admit a goalpost exists, then there cannot be two goalposts, eh?

These questions are more than simple, they are profoundly simple. Because God is so profoundly simple, the challenging answers are frequently out of our reach, because human beings complicate things with our selves.
So, keeping this profoundly simple, you cannot tell wrong from right. Or at least, what you describe as being wrong or right is only your opinion. Well, apart from what you might find in scripture (which you will cherry pick) or the catechism.

It doesn’t sound like having an objective good is worth anything at all if no-one knows what it is.
 
So, keeping this profoundly simple, you cannot tell wrong from right. Or at least, what you describe as being wrong or right is only your opinion. Well, apart from what you might find in scripture (which you will cherry pick) or the catechism.

It doesn’t sound like having an objective good is worth anything at all if no-one knows what it is.
You’ve said this before so what’s the point?

Either we believe in God or we don’t. Period. A child who reaches the age of reason and is Catholic is to be guided. We are not birds that figure our how our wings work one day and leave the nest for points unknown.

So, in some places, and for some people, all they have is tribalism. That is, “You seem to follow my methods so I will associate with you.” And those methods must be free of religion. The media, case in point, is deliberately sliding deeper and deeper into immorality. But in “opinion culture,” my statement is meaningless because some will want this sort of thing. Women allowing themselves to be portrayed as sex toys. And kids? The ROI is too high. Work and take that money and party.

God does not force anyone to love Him. And if we are just biological machines that are capable of high order problem solving then that’s it. Science is god. Change is god. After that, in the ground. The end.

Ed
 
Unlike some, I am not inclined to have my children believe what I believe. I prefer them to have as much information as possible so that they can decide themselves.
Information? Obviously, we cant give them a solid formation and practice in all religions. We have to choose one to dedicate them into. And it’s natural that we provide the one that we are convicted in.

I was raised Evangelical, and I do feel that I was left out of so much of Christianity. But I respect that it is what my parents believed and participated in. They had the right to bring me into the faith where they received communion through.

But Evangelical Christianity is a partial participation in the Catholic faith.

It’s not about information. It’s about belief, conviction and dedication.
 
So, keeping this profoundly simple, you cannot tell wrong from right. Or at least, what you describe as being wrong or right is only your opinion.
Truly: 🤷
How could you possibly arrive at the conclusion ““you cannot tell wrong from right”” from what I just posted? Can you address the specific points?
It doesn’t sound like having an objective good is worth anything at all if no-one knows what it is.
The whole point of making an evaluation is that we can know the objective truth. We can have an objective reference point. If not, there is no such thing as moral evaluation. 🤷 “Ethics” is meaningless without a standard. That is what subjective opinion is.

The fact that you either
throw your hands up in capitulation
or
disagree with objective standards for moral evaluation
does not mean they don’t exist.
 
Until they are adults and living on their own (and relatively forever after). I will do my best to receive them with all my mind, heart and soul into the life I have in Jesus! How can I do otherwise? They are under my care, jurisdiction, rule and house. They are human, and humans need God in their mind, heart and soul! ❤️❤️❤️

You can ask them their opinion when they are mature. I hope they love what I provided for them!
 
Unlike some, I am not inclined to have my children believe what I believe. I prefer them to have as much information as possible so that they can decide themselves.
I really don’t think it is possible to hide your beliefs from your children.
 
Thoughts?
No one can avoid passing their values on to their children, but it has to be a two-way street:

You, who are on the road must have a code that you can live by.
And so become yourself because the past is just a good bye.
Teach your children well, their father’s hell did slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams, the one they pick’s the one you’ll know by.
Don’t you ever ask them why, if they told you, you would cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.

And you, of tender years can’t know the fears that your elders grew by,
And so please help them with your youth, they seek the truth before they can die.
Teach your parents well, their children’s hell will slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams, the one they pick’s the one you’ll know by.
Don’t you ever ask them why, if they told you, you would cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.

Which I learn was written by Graham Nash and connected with this photo, Child with Toy Hand Grenade in Central Park:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

“During a lecture at New Mexico State University in 1989 Matt Groening told the audience he based the character of Bart Simpson of the TV show The Simpsons upon this photograph.”
 
Why on earth would I consider honour killings to be justifiable?

I think you might do well to brush up on the many and varied bases for morality, their proponents, their arguments and the sources for those arguments.

Christianity will be found in there somewhere but if you believe it is the only guide available for moral action, then you are sadly missing out on a gargantuan amount of philosophical literature covering the last 3,000 years.
Using your ‘objective refence point’ doesn’t appear to work either. So many opinions on the difference between right and wrong.
Your post shows my point perfectly. You sound horrified that anyone would ask if you approve of honor killings. But then later you admit there is no objective right or wrong. So you’ve proven my point. In the atheist worldview, there is no objective right or wrong, and any type of evil is just a matter of opinion.
Tell me if you have it right all the time. If you do, I have a few problems you can solve for me. If not, then how on earth do you know who does?
A couple of blazingly simple questions for you…
I don’t know of any Catholic who thinks they have it right all the time. The Christian faith is 100% truth tho.

So let’s hear these blazingly simply questions…
 
Your post shows my point perfectly. You sound horrified that anyone would ask if you approve of honor killings. But then later you admit there is no objective right or wrong. So you’ve proven my point. In the atheist worldview, there is no objective right or wrong, and any type of evil is just a matter of opinion…
Precisely.

If morality has no standard outside of itself, then it’s in the same genus as whether someone prefers eggs fried or boiled. There is no right or wrong answer to this.

No sane person says: it’s wrong to like fried eggs!

But sane people do say:

It’s wrong to kill your daughter because she had the audacity of being raped!

Atheists do say this ^^, all the time.

Therefore we know that they don’t view morality as merely a matter of opinion/preference/taste.

It would just be nice for them to acknowledge this.
 
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