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rcwitness
Guest
… Relativism
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
I tried bringing this point up with an atheist friend of mine. He sidestepped the issue and brought up an abandoned point from roughly a half hour earlier in the conversation. Each time I tried to bring my point back up, he ignored me and started down some other random path. Oh well. If someone doesn’t want to learn, you can’t make them.
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fisherman_carl
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Children already develop their own opinions. Every parent knows this. The meme is like advocating that every child should be left to grow ears. Or every child should be allowed to have a brain. The only thing the meme is saying is that the people who wrote it think that their position is the opinion that should be developed. The problem with some atheists is they think their view is somehow a privileged position when it is actually a deprived position. It is like the insane man yelling that everyone should make up their own mind and become like him.
The Bible solves the problem for us.
"Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it. " (Proberbs 23:6)
This training of a child is the right of every parent to teach their own kids. The meme is just one more attack on the family and the faith and should be viewed as one of the most sinister kind, to separate the parents from their children.
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rcwitness
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Luke 18
Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.*But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God.*Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.*But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God.*Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
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Bradski
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I don’t think it’s even advisable.
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Bradski
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The questions had already been asked. You answered. You don’t know if you are right all the time. So anything you tell me in regard to morality would presumably be worded thus: I don’t think I have it right all the time, but what I believe is…
That’s fine. You can assume that I’d start any moral proposition in exactly the same way. But hang on, you say that morality is objective. That there are objectively right and wrong actions that are not relative to the conditions. So let’s see.
B: Is killing wrong?
Zz: Well, that depends who it is.
B: OK. Is killing your daughter wrong?
Zz: I need more information about the conditions.
B: Right. Is killing your daughter wrong IF she has been raped and IF that is the sole reason for harming her?
What we have there is a very specific act that is conditional to the situation. That is, a moral act that is relative to the conditions.
And back to the fact that you claim that there are objective truths…
If you don’t know what they are (following your admission that no Christian can be sure), then how do we find out what they are? If I have a moral problem, then who do I ask?
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PRmerger
Guest
Yeah, but we all know your answer when asked:: Is this wrong?
Your answer is, like ours, hell yeah!
#youarenotamoralrelativist
#moralabsolutes
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simpleas
Guest
This is what happens when I check on a link and then find another link provided by a comment to the original link :
independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-preacher-who-raped-and-tortured-his-five-year-old-daughter-to-death-is-released-after-paying-8480440.html
What have I just read…
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
So why were your children unaware of your atheism? I don’t think they were. Even though you sent them to Catholic school to be indoctrinated by our beliefs!
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Bradski
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I am assuming that they didn’t know because it was never a topic of conversation. They might have seen a couple of books lying around by Hitchins or Dennett but there are many on the shelves by Christian aiuthors as well.So why were your children unaware of your atheism? I don’t think they were. Even though you sent them to Catholic school to be indoctrinated by our beliefs!
It certainly wasn’t hidden.
And their schools didn’t doctrinate them. They weren’t told what they had to believe in regard to religion. The schools had a preference but no more. As I said my son’s school wasn’t concerned that I was an atheist.
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PRmerger
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Christine, would you mind not going down this trail?So why were your children unaware of your atheism? I don’t think they were. Even though you sent them to Catholic school to be indoctrinated by our beliefs!
I typically don’t mind when things get off topic, and, in fact, rather enjoy the tributaries that often form off the OP–they are often more interesting than the OP.
However, as the author/progenitor of this thread, I’d like to ask you to refrain from going down this topic of why Bradski sent his kids to a Catholic school and whether they knew he was an atheist, as it’s rather silly.
Thank you.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
PR, sorry about your concerns, but I don’t think my line of questioning is out of line. It is getting to the root of the question. Bradski thinks religion is brainwashing, and yet he is an atheist whose kids are now atheists. He said they didn’t know he was an atheist until they were adults. I know why he sent his kids to Catholic school, because he wanted them to get a better education than they could in public schools. I think his children must have already known he was an atheist because you can’t really hide your beliefs from your children, no mattter whether you send them to Catholic “to be brainwashed” or not.Christine, would you mind not going down this trail?
I typically don’t mind when things get off topic, and, in fact, rather enjoy the tributaries that often form off the OP–they are often more interesting than the OP.
However, as the author/progenitor of this thread, I’d like to ask you to refrain from going down this topic of why Bradski sent his kids to a Catholic school and whether they knew he was an atheist, as it’s rather silly.
Thank you.
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Vico
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Pretty obvious that one is not a believer that can go to church but never goes to church, isn’t it.
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zz912
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This shows a misunderstanding of the Christian position. We are personally fallible, but God is our objective standard against what everything is measured against. And we CAN know what His objective standards are by listening to His Church, which is infallible on faith and morals.
So you are incorrect in your summary here.
Yes, there are objectively right/wrong actions. You deny this, but then are intellectually dishonest when you object to me asking you if honor killings can be okay.
I hope for charity’s sake that this is a fundamental misunderstanding on your part, and not an intentional distortion of Christian ethos on when killing a person is morally acceptable. To be charitable, I’ll assume the former.
So let me clear up your confusion. The only information needed to know if killing someone is justified is if they are violently attacking or threatening to attack you, and killing them appears to be the only way to stop the attack.
This is an objective standard given from God through His Church that is universal. It can be applied to your silly example above, and clearly the answer is Yes, killing her is wrong. That is an objective truth. But you cannot agree with that statement. Because you hold no objective truth.
As noted above, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Christian belief. We CAN be sure, by following God and listening to His Church. And that is who you ask.
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Bradski
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Hang on, back the truck up a little. I haven’t said that religion is brainwashing. It certainly could be in some circumstances, but I’m not taking a hard line here.
My point is that children should be encouraged to make up their own mind about matters such as religion.
And at no time did I encourage either child to follow in my footsteps. I certainly didn’t send them to Catholic schools to specifically avoid that. The schools were simply the best available. But I had no problem in that they were Catholic. And that they would be taught about the Catholic faith (plus other religions).
This is a pretty secular country down here. The chances are that any given child will grow up without a belief. Certainly without becoming a member of any organised religion. It’s par for the course.
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HelenRose
Guest
No. It is the talking point of those who say, “We will teach children to think.” And then give them nothing to think about.
It is a Marxist idea to destroy the past and brainwash children to fit in a economic materialistic world like little cogs in a machine. Easily controlled. managed and dependent solely on the Government for survival.
If there is no God then there is only the law of the strongest predator.
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HelenRose
Guest
You have trained your child to think as you do - that is your responsibility as a parent. Christians have a responsibility to raise their children as they see fit. When the children grow up they can then make the comparisons.
It is like saying to a child. You have a choice sweetheart. Here is candy. Here are vegetables. You can make up your own mind which you want. I will not influence your decision.
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Bradski
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A pretty dumb idea if there ever was one. Don’t you think that children should be taught about religions?
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HelenRose
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Of course I do. That is my point. If children of the West do not know the Bible, they are ignorant of about 4,000 years of their own history.
If we do not teach children the Bible and subsequent philosophy, ideas, hopes and science that came from the Bible, they will have nothing to compare the empty ideas of Marxism with. They will have nothing to go on except the death spiral of euthanasia, abortion and despair of an empty materialistic world that has nothing but death to offer.
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benhur
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Hi PR,
You be a facebooker ?
Some one reposted on a infant baptism thread. Reminded me of CC teaching of "permanent " marking on soul (not body ) with baptism…
but this is reminds me of the paradox put forth by those saying," truth is relative,and absolutely so" ?
or like the rhetorical “love you neighbor as yourself” because you can’t love more than how you love yourself…your sin against others is first a sin against yourself…etc.etc…now “love your enemy” is the height of that paradox (?), for agape love can not be given unless first received.
so here the paradox is that not brainwashing your children is still…brainwashing your children. It assumes that somehow children will not mimic , be influenced by parents, but do things “on their own”. Or that Truth can’t find a way thru error, sooner or later.
we all train up a child in the way he should go, from the Christian, to the Buddhist, to the atheist/agnsotic etc., etc.
What you are to yourself you will be to your children.
The question really is not about indoctrination but what is Truth, and how do you “get it”.
Christians do not robotize. For some they have infant baptism , but they also have Confirmation " much later on, (and some they only baptize believers of age), as Jews their Barhmitzvah way after circumcision.
The bible also says know the Truth for yourself, a type of getting you to well, so you can now drink for yourself. Your parents faith does not ultimately suffice for the child. He must choose to make it for himself. It is understood , that “open” door. It is understood that sometimes households will remain religious, while others may find brother against brother, sister against sister /mother /father etc,… all with the same indoctrination. Free will is understood in the Christian mindset.
Even Jesus, the ultimate blood washer personified this. In his ultimate question on Truth, on whom He was, He does not say trust/mimic your indoctrinators. He does not ask the apostles what their parents think, or rabbis, or church authority, or what sacred writings or what they have seen may say, but ,“What do YOU think?” …Can you imagine, the alleged creator of the universe asking one of his many creations, “what do you think”? Is their anything more dignified, self elevating, free will honoring ? And why ? Because Jesus knows Truth indeed is achievable, even thru imperfect indocrtinators and deceivable eyes and minds because God gives it to man, but not robotically, and never out of the realms of faith, though reasonable and with evidences.
Blessings RP…thanks for the outlet.
PS-- looked at picture and said to myself, “Stupid”…as in, " believe me, these children will certainly develop their own opinions, guaranteed…just ask any teenager"
Yet we can perish for lack of knowledge, and the sins of the father are for generations (if unbroken by grace and Truth, that is Jesus),
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