Religion Vs. Relationship

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I often hear a lot of Pentecostals speak of their “relationship” with Christ - and refer to Catholicism as religious - rules, expectations, religious bondage, etc. So then what is religion? Everything I found so far defines it like this :

Religion
a : the state of a religious
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

So when they say that Christianity isn’t a religion, its a relationship - Cant we also say that our religion is just as well a personal relationship and devotion to God?
 
I don’t think we should let other people define Catholicity. Catholics have a very personal relationship with God. We recieve His Son into our bodies and allow His grace to flow in us. No protestants can rightfully say that.
 
I always thought of it this way…

The Catholic religion informs my faith. Faith, I believe, is a personal thing. Religion, I believe, is composed of the institution, structure, practices and hierarchy of the Church. The same way for Protestant, Jewish and Hindu religions and people who’s faith is informed by those institutions, structures and hierarchies. The two - religion and faith - could be considered mutually exclusive.

When I listen to Fr. Larry Richards’ talk called “The Truth”… or read his book “Be a Man”… He does a good job of making the distinction. For faith to mean anything, it has to be freely chosen… it has to be your faith. It’s not a system. For me, faith means that, by the grace of God, I am able to believe.
 
Protestant or Catholic if you do not have a personal relationship with Jesus your faith is cold and unrewarding.
 
Of course as Catholics we can say our religion is the MOST personal relationship with God through HIs son , Jesus Christ.

Our Church teachings and devotions and practices are ways we find to worship Him and relate closer to Him. Non Catholic Christians would have no problem with marriage or family counseling, and this is exactly what many of our Church practices, devotions are - ways to grow closer to Jesus Christ, was to enhance our relationship with Him. But in the Non Catholic so called non religious tradition, they have workshop after workshop, book after book, sermon after sermon etc, that reinvent devotions and practices and instruction for living that our Catholic Church has dealt with already. in terms of theology or personal devotions or practices. Yet every generation a new non-Catholic Christian book or DVD or whatever comes on the family should worship God, the way spouses should relate, the way Christian citizens should live in the world and on and on. Our Catholic devotions, and practices, all those that make up our religion have been forged throughout the centuries and worn the test of time to become the most efficacious and meaningful so that we don’t have to reinvent the wheel every generation. While some old ideas fade, new ones develop such as the Divine Mercy Chaplet. While many years old to the world , its brand new in terms of the Catholic Church. But they ALL are ways to know HIM better and love Him more. That IS REALATIONSHIP OF THE TRUE RELIGION.

To argue that Christianity is not a religion or worse that religion is evil and something to be avoided is both ignorant and unbiblical. The bible tells us that Christianity the TRUE, PURE religion(James 1:27) And as you pointed out, religion is simply a way to worship God, Non Catholics have sermon after sermon describing exactly that , how to follow Gods laws! This dichotomy between a relationship and religion is simply something created to emphasize that Christians should KNOW Christ and not follow simple rituals without having a relationship with our Lord.

Well, those of us who a truly Catholic, and not like many nominal Catholics who end up leaving the Church because they never really knew the Church, clearly have a deep and always growing relationship with Jesus Christ, and thus God the Father. But, we have grown in that relationship due to our religion which teaches us how to grow closer through prayer, adoration, the rosary, Confession, reading the bible, marriage, devotions to the Saints, fasting, tithing, reverential postures and sacramentals, and on and on! All those things non Catholics see as things taking away from Jesus Christ are ALL , everything in the life of the Church , is to have a deeper relationship with HIM! Some poorly catechized Catholics do just jump through the ritual hoops without giving second thought about their connection to Christ. That is a spiritual crime that they do that and that they were never taught better.

So next time someone mentions this ask them what they do to have a relationship with their wives or kids. They will tell you they go out to movies, have birthday parties, give gifts, read the bible and pray together, have meals together, etc. Ask them if those are just rituals? Of course they are not! They are means by which we have relationship with our loved ones. And our Catholic religions has given us over the 2000 years a wisdom of various means to have relationship with Jesus Christ. Our calendar is full of saint birthday parties, the Eucharist is our Church Sunday meal, prayer time together. It is no different than the Evangelical Harvest Crusade, or the daily bible verse memorization, or the so called fellowshipping, prayer rallys etc. While they will say those all involve prayer and devotion to Jesus, we as Catholics should be prepared to say so does my Rosary, my novena, Adoration, my scapular. If we cant explain it as such we better be alarmed.

Nevertheless, I hear many many rules and regulations coming from non Catholic Christian radio and TV sermons and described in books and DVDs etc. Every year there are hundreds of new Christian book on ways to pray, raise a family, strengthen a marriage, grow in faith. They wouldn’t describe those as rules and regulations that serve as bondage. Why not?? Simply because they consider those as instruction to grow in ones relationship with Jesus. And that is exactly what ALL of the Catholic Church’s “rules and regulations” are about. One distinction that could be made is that while we as Catholics correctly believe that it matters how we live our lives in terms of eternal life, our Catholic teachings, the so called rules and regulations do carry more weight! In other words we should consider them as more than merely the latest fad in Christian writings, and regard them as matters of eternal life. But if we don’t heed these “rules and regulations” in faith, and instead follow simply as superstitious rituals then the charge of relationship versus false religion is true. But that ritualistic practice of Catholicism would be a false Catholicism. We can only conform our lives to the teachings of the Church by having relationship with HIM, and the Church teachings, the so called rules and regulations, show us what that life should look like. The rules and regulations without a relationship with Christ are meaningless in terms of salvation , they presume a faith in HIM and desire to grow in that faith.

Whenever I hear this comparison between relationship and religion I cant help thinking that the person saying it is either just a parrot saying something without thinking or really doesn’t have much insight to both his own religion and especially that of the Catholic Church.

What do you think?
 
Someone mentioned one other thing I think is a false dichotomy. That is the church hierarchy and institutional structure as something different or at least oppositionall to faith. I think this is erroneous also. For it is the structure of the hierarchy , the institutionalization of the Church that helps maintain and perpetuate the faith in a consistent and faithful manner. The bishops with the Pope maintain unity in doctrine and practice. This helps preserve the faith throughout the generations. Without it the Church devolves into nothing. Look at the Universalsim. A so called church that believes in virtually nothing and has virtually no faith other than a vague theistic sense of goodness. Without the institutional Catholic Church the Eucharist has devolved from the real presence to a memorial service with crackers and grape juice. Have you ever sat through such a service and felt the presence of Christ in crackers and juice? Christ was there in the faith of the people but the Lords Supper service added nothing to the service compared to the Eucharist. My point is simply that Christ left a Church, faith, bishops - hierarchy and institution! While the particular offices and the way they function and the actions of men may not be specifically ordained by God, He left a Church and not just a faith, not just a book, but a community of believers to organize themselves to spread the word of God as they say fit as guided by the Holy Spirit.

Are the men who occupy this structure perfect, is the structure perfect. I don’t know. God allows it to exist. So maybe its not perfect but its acceptable enough for God to let function. But there is no need to shy away from the structure of the Church any more than Her teachings. Don’t forget those very people who make the relationship versus religion comparisons come from Churchs that ALSO have structure. It may be very localized but it stil has a lead pastor, elders, teachers etc. That is an institutionalization as well!

So, again don’t let these trite expressions make us shy from our faith or from even the outwardly presence of the Church, the hierarchy and institutionalization. It may not be perfect, and it surely needs reform, but its mere existence alone is not a bad thing as some want you to believe. And when done correctly can be a witness to God. Hierarchy and organization are what helped grow the Church. You cant have human life without it. Christ established it with HIs Apostles, and Peter. Dont you think if he were opposed to organization and hierarchy he would have said, "now make sure you stay without leadership, without any semblance of structure ? He said neither , and Instead he established Peter as leader, the Apostles as the hierarchy and gave us His mother as the supreme model of our Christian lives!

People want to discredit the entirety of the Church by attacking hierarchy who did bad things, such as licentious Popes or bishops who protected child molesters. Bad men did these things, not bad organizations! Bad men are ultimately responsible! Structures can give aid to bad men sometimes, but they can also be an aid in doing good things. Structure are like technology. The internet can be used to spread porn but it also spreads the Word of God. Don’t let attacks on bad men in the hierarchy, make one shy from the Church in any way. Instead pray for better bishops and more holy priests!
 
It is because of the Eucharist that I will always remain Catholic.
 
I don’t think we should let other people define Catholicity. Catholics have a very personal relationship with God. We recieve His Son into our bodies and allow His grace to flow in us. No protestants can rightfully say that.
Yes, yes, yes.👍
 
I often hear a lot of Pentecostals speak of their “relationship” with Christ - and refer to Catholicism as religious - rules, expectations, religious bondage, etc. So then what is religion? Everything I found so far defines it like this :

Religion
a : the state of a religious
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

So when they say that Christianity isn’t a religion, its a relationship - Cant we also say that our religion is just as well a personal relationship and devotion to God?
Their expression is crude and inaccurate, but their intent is a good one. They have an understandable concern over what they see as the highly structured and (in their eyes) extra-biblical aspects of Catholicism.

I try to take a different approach in such conversations.
First of all I completely agree with them that Christianity is a relationship with Christ…we are a part of His body.
But a body - any body - has a structure and the component are REQUIRED to do certain things - otherwise the body just collapses.
The Church - based on the biblical principles of community and authority laid out in Mt 18:15-18 and Acts 15 and other places exhorting us to unity - has evolved over time.
What the evangelical might see as extra-biblical “rules and restrictions” can actually be traced back to very biblical principles and to the guidance of the Holy Spirit in Council (which is itself highly biblical).

If one is unfamiliar with the Church - looking in from the outside - it can seem that there are a lot of rules and such…but a little investigation into the whys of these things can bring a much greater understanding of just how relational the Church really is.

Peace
James
 
I certainly can’t speak for all Christian Churches but I can tell you that the Catholic Church calls for a personal relationship with the Almighty God. Some examples of her teaching:

CCC 299: Because God creates through wisdom, his creation is ordered: “You have arranged all things by measure and number and weight.” The universe, created in and by the eternal Word, the “image of the invisible God”, is destined for and addressed to man, himself created in the “image of God” and called to a personal relationship with God.

2558 “Great is the mystery of the faith!” The Church professes this mystery in the Apostles’ Creed (Part One) and celebrates it in the sacramental liturgy (Part Two), so that the life of the faithful may be conformed to Christ in the Holy Spirit to the glory of God the Father (Part Three). This mystery, then, requires that the faithful believe in it, that they celebrate it, and that they live from it in a vital and personal relationship with the living and true God. This relationship is prayer.

796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship.

Those are just a few examples of how the Church teaches her faithful on the subject of relationship. Catholics (and Orthodox) have the most personal relationships with Jesus because of the Eucharist, first and foremost. However, it is also their adherence to liturgical prayer and worship that brings them into relationship with God. They worship God in ritual form- which is the way He wants to be worshipped. He seeks communion in a particular form. We know this not only because the Church teaches it, but also because the Bible reveals it. From Genesis to Revelation we see liturgical worship-- rituals, rites, liturgical prayers, incense, sacrificial offering, bread, wine, etc, etc. All of these bring us into personal relationship with God, but none so much as the communion we have in the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
 
I often hear a lot of Pentecostals speak of their “relationship” with Christ - and refer to Catholicism as religious - rules, expectations, religious bondage, etc. So then what is religion? Everything I found so far defines it like this :

Religion
a : the state of a religious
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

So when they say that Christianity isn’t a religion, its a relationship - Cant we also say that our religion is just as well a personal relationship and devotion to God?
What could be more of a most personal relationship than receiving the Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist!

As far as the hierarchy and structure goes, it would be confusion without it. We believe in obedience to our superiors for the sake of unity. The hierarchy is in obedience to Jesus. (pope, bishops,).

We have a three-legged stool. Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium (teaching authority). They balance each other. Scripture alone does not hold up.
 
Christ said, If you love Me, you will obey My commandments.

I see what your non-Catholic friends see as rules and regulations as an owner’s manual, like the one which comes with a car. The OM tells me how to take care of my car, when to change the oil, which button turns on the headlights, etc.

In the same way, the Church teaches us how to best care for our relationship with God: how to fuel it, how to repair any damage, how to handle changing conditions.
 
Well when I looked into the definition of Christianity I got

chris·ti·an·i·ty
/ˌkrisCHēˈanitē/
Noun
Code:
1.The **religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth**, or its beliefs and practices. Christianity is today the world's...
 2.Christian quality or character.
 
Well when I looked into the definition of Christianity I got

chris·ti·an·i·ty
/ˌkrisCHēˈanitē/
Noun
Code:
1.The **religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth**, or its beliefs and practices. Christianity is today the world's...
 2.Christian quality or character.
I doubt that the “book definition” of Christianity will have much weight with those who espouse the view - “its a relationship - not a religion”…🤷

Peace
James
 
I doubt that the “book definition” of Christianity will have much weight with those who espouse the view - “its a relationship - not a religion”…🤷
Probably not, but if you even look in an encyclopedia and look up Christianity - everywhere that I have searched - its describes Christianity as a religion. And religion ( a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices) is involved in the relationship with Christ.
 
Probably not, but if you even look in an encyclopedia and look up Christianity - everywhere that I have searched - its describes Christianity as a religion. And religion ( a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices) is involved in the relationship with Christ.
Agreed…👍

Actually the big problem with a lot of these types of things is the attitude of “either / or” that exists in them (either expressed or implied).

Why does it have to be a relationship OR a religion?
Why does it have to be faith OR works?
Why does justification have to be imputed OR infused?

… 🤷…I dunno…

I’m always leery of people and groups who try to dissect things in this way.

I think that often times such people are trying to simplify matters so that they can wrap their heads around it…A Church as large and well developed as the Catholic Church just frightens them…
Sad really…

Peace
James
 
Religion is the structure that handed the faith - belief in Jesus Christ as the Risen Lord and his teachings - down to us through the ages. Without religion there would be no belief in Jesus.

Every single human being who believes in Jesus as the Risen Lord got that belief from religion. Even those who picked up the Bible, started reading, and came to believe, must realize that the Bible came through religion. Religion produced the Bible.

If coffee is the relationship, then the cup is religion. Saying you have a personal relationship without religion is saying that you have coffee without the cup.

-Tim-
 
I often hear a lot of Pentecostals speak of their “relationship” with Christ - and refer to Catholicism as religious - rules, expectations, religious bondage, etc. So then what is religion? Everything I found so far defines it like this :

Religion
a : the state of a religious
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

So when they say that Christianity isn’t a religion, its a relationship - Cant we also say that our religion is just as well a personal relationship and devotion to God?
Why would you even listen to a religion founded in the 1900’s? None of these people have the authority to start a religion. Anymore than Luther had authority, or Calvin, or Henry VIII…yada yada yada… to do what they did.

Division is condemned in scripture. Do you understand that? It is condemned, as are those who do it. This group you’re paying attention to, are just one more string of broken denominations that continually spring out of the protestant revolt. It’s all condemned. Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21. Pul wrote that under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. John 14:23-26. And the Holy Spirit received it from Jesus John 16:12-15 . Since Jesus wants ZERO division and perfect unity, John 17:20-23, Jesus is giving you the way He wants relationship. It’s through the Catholic Church and religion that He established.
 
I use to think this way about religion, and replace it with relationship. The thing is, is that a relationship for any believer is inevitable,…the idea is to have a good one! Im a son to my dad, and therefore have a relationship to him, it can be a good relationship or a bad one.

Religion seems to be more the teachings which we use as a guide to have a good relationship with God. So “relationship” cannot rightly replace the term religion.
 
I use to think this way about religion, and replace it with relationship. The thing is, is that a relationship for any believer is inevitable,…the idea is to have a good one! Im a son to my dad, and therefore have a relationship to him, it can be a good relationship or a bad one.
I like this…It made me think…One has a “relationship” with various family members…but being member of a family imposes certain “forms” on a person as well.
As you say you can have a good or bad relationship with your father - but whether good or bad, he is still your father.
Families have certain rules and roles too… Fathers and mothers are “in charge”, especially when the children are small - dinner is at a certain time, some language and behavior is encouraged while others are not acceptable, play in the back yard - not in the front…etc.
So there are personal relationships AND organizational ones that come into play.
Religion seems to be more the teachings which we use as a guide to have a good relationship with God. So “relationship” cannot rightly replace the term religion.
Absolutely!!
It’s not an either / or situation. We can have a combination of personal and organizational relationship with many things…family, school, community, government, social clubs and so on…

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Peace
James
 
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