Religion vs spirituality

[Allistheself]

Greetings and peace to all

I’m a new member to the Catholic Forums, although I am not a Christian nor do I follow any particular religion, I am hoping for those who may shed some light upon, as Christians identify it as salvation or kingdom of God.

In the book of Genesis in particular it describes the origins of man widely known as the story of Adam and Eve. The story portrays an interesting message that which contains many symbolism. The apple representing the knowledge of good and evil (dualistic nature of humans) and the serpent (satan) representing human desire. It was the “first sin” as a result being kicked out of the kingdom of God. We were once unified beings with God but have separated our connection due to our driving desire for external satisfaction.

That is to say our desire is what cause us to “sin” which consequently creates suffering. However, in the new testament of the bible, Jesus speaks many times to which may lead us back into the kingdom of God. Jesus said “the kingdom of God is within you” that all of us are capable to end suffering by returning back to God. By ending our desire. By unifying our dualistic nature. Jesus said “I am one with God and God is one with me” the key is oneness with God.

This is my own taking on returning to the kingdom of God. There is much more I can say or would like to say. Any Christains here would like to discuss this topic feel free, I’d love to hear your (name removed by moderator)ut as Id like to learn more

 

[Oren]

Your idea of the first part of the book of Genesis is not right. The serpent does not represent human desire. The serpent was Satan. He tempted Eve to eat the apple. Her sin was in disobedience to God. She wanted to be able to decide good and evil for herself. Adam went along with that. That is the original sin.
What you are saying sounds like some kind of buddhist stuff? That’s my take on it. Desires are not bad in themselves, but when they go against God’s will, that is the sin.
Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you. Jesus must be within us for that to be the case. That comes through the sacraments and prayer.

 

[Allistheself]

Ah I see, I’ve mistaken satan represents temptation as I recall the story of Jesus journey to the desert for 40 days where he was “tempted” by satan to transform stone into bread. Jesus’ want or desire for food to satisfy is hunger created temptation. To which Jesus conquered satanbor his temptation.

What do you mean when you say when desires go aagainst God’s will?

 

[Oren]

Satan tempted Jesus in the desert. It wasn’t symbolic. The fallen angel named Satan, actually tempted Jesus. Jesus had no need to conquer His temptation since He is God and no temptation could ever become internal to His soul. They were strictly external temptations provided by Satan.

Desires that go against God’s will are things like impure thoughts, lust, greed etc.

 

[Allistheself]

The bible is all symbolic, it is misconcieved when taken literally. Take a look at the evolution of language. Or better yet or understanding what language is. Words, letters (symbols) created and formed together that is used to “describe” something. It is all interpretation.

Whatever words or sentences there are, they are used to transfer a message. So there is a meaning behind every story.

The story of the tortoise and the hare is not real. As in there was no such event where a hare and tortoise raced each other. But there is a meaning of the story “slow ans steady wins the race” “patoence is a virtue” same thing goes for goldilock and the three bears or three little pigs

Besides, the bible consists of books originally written in hebrew text 500! Years after the death of christ. Books that were translated and put together by a man.

 

[Oren]

This is not the way we read the Bible as Catholics. There are some things that are symbolic, look at the Song of Solomon. But, other things are not symbolic at all. They are historical and they really happened.

 

[Allistheself]

What is the catholic methodology for analyzing the bible?

There is no proof that these events actually occured it is based on the collective belief of a group of people which acts as an incentive for truth.

Dont get me wrong I am not discerning the bible, it has a lot of valuable information but to be taken every word literally you are closing your mind to the truer reality

 

[Oren]

Things about Jesus are all historical as He was an historical person. That’s basically everything in the New Testament except some of the apocalypse which is prophecy etc. The Old Testament has poetry (song of solomon) that are not to be read as historical and other genres. Every word is not taken literally but a lot are. I was responding to your claim that ‘all’ the bible is symbolic, which is not true. There is historical evidence for the Bible. You need to do your homework though which I cannot do for you.

 

[JRKH]

Greetings and peace to all

I’m a new member to the Catholic Forums, although I am not a Christian nor do I follow any particular religion, I am hoping for those who may shed some light upon, as Christians identify it as salvation or kingdom of God.

In the book of Genesis in particular it describes the origins of man widely known as the story of Adam and Eve. The story portrays an interesting message that which contains many symbolism. The apple representing the knowledge of good and evil (dualistic nature of humans) and the serpent (satan) representing human desire. It was the “first sin” as a result being kicked out of the kingdom of God. We were once unified beings with God but have separated our connection due to our driving desire for external satisfaction.

That is to say our desire is what cause us to “sin” which consequently creates suffering. However, in the new testament of the bible, Jesus speaks many times to which may lead us back into the kingdom of God. Jesus said “the kingdom of God is within you” that all of us are capable to end suffering by returning back to God. By ending our desire. By unifying our dualistic nature. Jesus said “I am one with God and God is one with me” the key is oneness with God.

This is my own taking on returning to the kingdom of God. There is much more I can say or would like to say. Any Christains here would like to discuss this topic feel free, I’d love to hear your (name removed by moderator)ut as Id like to learn more

Welcome to CAF. I hope your time here is fruitful.

I believe the above contains some interesting ideas. As Oran has pointed out - there are some differences between your understanding and ours, but I think that there is also some good parallels.

Regardless of the reality vs the symbolism of the serpent, I think it IS reasonable to say that it was human desire that brought about the first sin.
Likewise the path back to Go lies within us. We need to turn back to God and to become entirely dependent on Him - believing and doing and being all things for His glory.

Now - that said - I’m at a loss to understand how this relates to the title of the thread…there really isn’t a “versus” between religion and spirituality.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

What is the catholic methodology for analyzing the bible?

We rely upon the Holy Spirit operating within the Church to properly guide us on these issues - as promised by our dear Lord and King Jesus Christ.

There is no proof that these events actually occured it is based on the collective belief of a group of people which acts as an incentive for truth.

Why do you say there is no proof that the events recorded in the bible ever occurred? Much of what is normally accepted as fact in world history is known by the single avenue of the recorded word. The writers of the Gospels took the time to place the events into a historical context…Who was ruling…Same with the historical books of the OT.

Dont get me wrong I am not discerning the bible, it has a lot of valuable information but to be taken every word literally you are closing your mind to the truer reality

Actually I though the point of this thread was to discern the bible and to compare what it contains against what you believe. This is very much a discernment.

That said -
I think that we might need to talk about how the Bible came about so that you can better grasp how we as Catholics use it.
The Catholic Church came into being on Pentecost. At that time none of the NT writings existed and the OT was not completely defined. There were various OT canon’s in use. As time went on and the Church grew, various authors wrote books, letters etc that were used in various regions of the growing Church.
During the 4th Century it was determined by the Church that there needed to be a common collection of books used universally within the Church. Bishops of the Church met in council and reviewed the many writings available and selected those which would be included in the NT. Multiple councils have reaffirmed this selection.
Likewise the OT books were established - though not as “universally”…the Eastern Church continued to use more OT books than the western Church.

The point in the above is this…The Catholic looks at the Bible as a collection of books assembled (a biblia or “canon”) by the Catholic Church under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit - and so we look at it within the overall teaching of the Church.
Protestants - those who hold to “Sola Scriptura” tend not to do this. They tend to try to look at the bible in isolation - to read and interpret it for themselves…
The Bible was never intended to be used in this way.

Hope this helps a little.

Peace
James

 

[JReducation]

Greetings and peace to all

I’m a new member to the Catholic Forums, although I am not a Christian nor do I follow any particular religion, I am hoping for those who may shed some light upon, as Christians identify it as salvation or kingdom of God.

In the book of Genesis in particular it describes the origins of man widely known as the story of Adam and Eve. The story portrays an interesting message that which contains many symbolism. The apple representing the knowledge of good and evil (dualistic nature of humans) and the serpent (satan) representing human desire. It was the “first sin” as a result being kicked out of the kingdom of God. We were once unified beings with God but have separated our connection due to our driving desire for external satisfaction.

That is to say our desire is what cause us to “sin” which consequently creates suffering. However, in the new testament of the bible, Jesus speaks many times to which may lead us back into the kingdom of God. Jesus said “the kingdom of God is within you” that all of us are capable to end suffering by returning back to God. By ending our desire. By unifying our dualistic nature. Jesus said “I am one with God and God is one with me” the key is oneness with God.

This is my own taking on returning to the kingdom of God. There is much more I can say or would like to say. Any Christains here would like to discuss this topic feel free, I’d love to hear your (name removed by moderator)ut as Id like to learn more

My friend, you have a number of misunderstandings here.

Let’s begin with the title of your thread. Religion and spirituality can never be juxtaposed. There is no such thing as religion vs spirituality. Spirituality, properly speaking means life in the spirit. There is an a priori assumption that the person who lives a spiritual life lives in relationship to someone who transcends his own existence. Therefore, there is a link between the two, which is the proper meaning of the term religion, from the Latin to re-tie (re ligio).

As to the Creation Story in the Book of Genesis, the story is theology. My ancestors were not interested in writing philosophy, science or literary allegory. The fruit, serpent, garden and so forth meant much more to them than what you’re saying. You’re not totally wrong either, but you need to go further. The Creation story was a hymn of praise that was handed down from generation to generation through oral tradition by my people. It praised God as creator and source of all existence, especially life. It also made a theological statement about the nature of man and his relationship with God. It communicated the to man the nature of God who is all powerful, all knowing, all loving and all merciful. It defines the dignity of man in relation to all of creation. But it also sheds light on the value of all creation in relationship to man and man’s moral obligation to care for what clearly was created for his good and to lead him back to the Creator, not to exploit it and destroy it. This is only scratching the surface.

Jesus did not say that he was one with God and God is one with him. Jesus said that he and the Father are one. In Hebrew culture this means that he is God, not united to God. Had this been his meaning, they would not have accused him of blasphemy. If someone were to allege that he is God today, we too could call him a blasphemer.

He also said that the Kingdom of God “is at hand”, referring to himself. He is the Kingdom of God and at the same time he points to the Kingdom of God. All things are drawn to him and all things reach their fulfillment in him. It is only he who is capable of ending suffering, not man. Man can stop inflicting suffering on himself. But man cannot heal the scars of suffering. Nor can man bridge the gap between God and him caused by sin. Only Christ can do that. Hence he says that no one can go to the Father except through him. No one can cross the chasm without cross the bridge, which is Christ. He’s not pointing to any power within man other than the power to choose him or reject him. He is not attributing the man power to heal himself.

Now that we have established that Jesus means himself as the Kingdom of God, then we can concluded by addressing your first point. Man is not “kicked out of the Kingdom of God.” The Garden of Eden was not the Kingdom of God, because only Christ is the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is not a place, but a state of being, which is only found in Jesus, not in creation. Eden, in Jewish theology, means God’s garden. It is the place where God walks among his creation. Through sin, man forfeits the intimacy of the garden. In other words, he forfeits intimacy with divine life.

However, God so loves man, that he does not abandon man. Even though man has forfeited divine intimacy, God continues to make his presence known through the entire Old Testament to remind man that he will come to heal the rupture that man cannot heal. Hence, when the time was right, God becomes incarnate in Christ, is born of a virgin in Bethlehem, surrenders his life in Jerusalem and conquers death. It is the cross that heals death, not man. Therefore, Christ crucified is the one who rises from the dead so that we can rise from the dead. All healing and all life are to be found through him and in him who is God.

 

[Loving_disciple]

Ah I see, I’ve mistaken satan represents temptation as I recall the story of Jesus journey to the desert for 40 days where he was “tempted” by satan to transform stone into bread. Jesus’ want or desire for food to satisfy is hunger created temptation. To which Jesus conquered satanbor his temptation.

What do you mean when you say when desires go aagainst God’s will?

It is I an interesting topic isn’t it . Satan is the one who tempts us however he doesn’t represent our desire rather he is the thing that brings out those desires

 

[Loving_disciple]

The bible is all symbolic, it is misconcieved when taken literally. Take a look at the evolution of language. Or better yet or understanding what language is. Words, letters (symbols) created and formed together that is used to “describe” something. It is all interpretation.

Whatever words or sentences there are, they are used to transfer a message. So there is a meaning behind every story.

The story of the tortoise and the hare is not real. As in there was no such event where a hare and tortoise raced each other. But there is a meaning of the story “slow ans steady wins the race” “patoence is a virtue” same thing goes for goldilock and the three bears or three little pigs

Besides, the bible consists of books originally written in hebrew text 500! Years after the death of christ. Books that were translated and put together by a man.

200 years if you want to be accurate

 

[Loving_disciple]

What is the catholic methodology for analyzing the bible?

There is no proof that these events actually occured it is based on the collective belief of a group of people which acts as an incentive for truth.

Dont get me wrong I am not discerning the bible, it has a lot of valuable information but to be taken every word literally you are closing your mind to the truer reality

The proof is the 12 apostles, they told the story of Christ to many people because they believed it was true because they experienced it with there own lives. Do you think the Apostles would have let themselves been killed for a lie?

 

[JReducation]

Question . . . not to the OP, but to everyone else.

Why is everyone trying to prove that the Scriptures are true?

Before we can prove to anyone that they are true, we must establish why they were written. Once we explain why they were written, there is nothing to prove. The faith of the authors speaks for itself. If someone does not want to believe it, so be it. That’s his choice. If someone can’t understand it, let him ask more questions. If someone is convinces, the conversation is over.

I like the Franciscan method. Keep it simple. Human beings love to make things more complicated than they need to be. Has anyone else ever noticed this? We can’t just enjoy a McDonald’s fries. We need a nutritional list to tell us that we’re about to eat something that can kill us; but we’re going to eat it anyway, because it tastes good. Why not just eat it and enjoy it?

The same is true of scripture. Once we know why the writers wrote what they did, why not just choose to run with it or put it back on the shelf? Why do we have to explain it over and over again to people who are determined to debate about ti? That’s why St. Francis said that if someone is not convinced by your preaching, just leave. Don’t complicate your life.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

By ending our desire. By unifying our dualistic nature. Jesus said “I am one with God and God is one with me” the key is oneness with God.

This is my own taking on returning to the kingdom of God. There is much more I can say or would like to say. Any Christains here would like to discuss this topic feel free, I’d love to hear your (name removed by moderator)ut as Id like to learn more

We all certainly have a lot to reconcile within us, especially when it comes to our many conflicting desires. And so Christ is our reconciliation:

Colossians 1:19-21
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Besides, the bible consists of books originally written in hebrew text 500! Years after the death of christ. Books that were translated and put together by a man.

The Hebrew Bible, the Tanakh, was written before Jesus was born. That is why prophesies are interpreted as about him and he himself actually read from them. It includes a wide variety of literary forms. The New Testament was written after Jesus’ death and also has different liteary forms.

 

[JRKH]

Question . . . not to the OP, but to everyone else.

Why is everyone trying to prove that the Scriptures are true?

Before we can prove to anyone that they are true, we must establish why they were written. Once we explain why they were written, there is nothing to prove. The faith of the authors speaks for itself. If someone does not want to believe it, so be it. That’s his choice. If someone can’t understand it, let him ask more questions. If someone is convinces, the conversation is over.

I like the Franciscan method. Keep it simple. Human beings love to make things more complicated than they need to be. Has anyone else ever noticed this? We can’t just enjoy a McDonald’s fries. We need a nutritional list to tell us that we’re about to eat something that can kill us; but we’re going to eat it anyway, because it tastes good. Why not just eat it and enjoy it?

The same is true of scripture. Once we know why the writers wrote what they did, why not just choose to run with it or put it back on the shelf? Why do we have to explain it over and over again to people who are determined to debate about ti? That’s why St. Francis said that if someone is not convinced by your preaching, just leave. Don’t complicate your life.

Amen -

I think that some of what is going on is trying to correct the misunderstandings of the OP…For example he makes the statement…
Besides, the bible consists of books originally written in Hebrew text 500! Years after the death of christ. Books that were translated and put together by a man.
Would you not agree that it is a good idea to correct this?

Just sayin’…

Peace
James

 

[Sirach2]

Amen -

I think that some of what is going on is trying to correct the misunderstandings of the OP…For example he makes the statement…
Besides, the bible consists of books originally written in Hebrew text 500! Years after the death of christ. Books that were translated and put together by a man.
**Would you not agree that it is a good idea to correct this? **

Not at all. I think Brother Jay has a good handle on the OP. The OP is not seeking to understand, but rather, striving to convince us of his opinion. His words are not inquisitive, but exclamatory. Best to let this one go by the wayside.

 

[asd72]

What is the catholic methodology for analyzing the bible?

There is no proof that these events actually occured it is based on the collective belief of a group of people which acts as an incentive for truth.

Dont get me wrong I am not discerning the bible, it has a lot of valuable information but to be taken every word literally you are closing your mind to the truer reality

This from the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’ in answer the your first question, hope it helps.

The senses of Scripture

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86