Religion with science

[StAnastasia]

Secondly, if there seems to be enough molecules to form the oceans, there are plenty to flood it no?

No – you would need many times the volume of the current oceans to flood Mt. Everest.

 

[abucs]

No, I don’t believe that the bible should be taken 100% literally but this is when metaphores are being used. Especially with Jesus’ parrables and a lot in revalations. But, I do believe that the book of Genesis does not fall into that. The story of Adam and Eve, Noah’s Ark, I believe these stories to be true.

Hi Block,

there are two creation stories at the beginning of Genesis and they differ. One has God creating the animals, one has man being creatd first. One has God naming the animals, the other has man naming the animals. And there are other differences.

The first ‘story’ rhymes in ancient Hebrew, and has repetitive structure like - and that was the first day…and that was the second day etc. It also repeats - and God saw that it was good. We don’t know the tune, but it looks very much like a song or hymn.

For example - one the fist day of Christmas my true love gave to me - etc etc.

So the fact that it looks like a song and it contradicts the second creation ‘story’ clearly looks like it is not to be taken literally.

The Jews are very smart people. They consist of less than 1/2 percentage of the world yet they have received something like 20% of nobel prizes. It is very difficult to think the Jews copied this for thousands of years and didn’t say to eachother - hey this contradicts itself.

Also if you look, God creates the sun and the moon on the fourth day. You don’t have to be a 21st century science graduate to realise that for there to be a day and night you need the sun and the moon.

Just as we wouldn’t take - the 12 days of Christmas literally we shouldn’t take this literally either. But that doesn’t mean it gets ignored and disregarded. We study it as part of Jewish religious history to see what the Jews thought of certain things. For example, it was commonly thought back then by non Jewish peoples that the sun and moon and earth and mountains and stars were Gods and that we were the slaves of the Gods. The hymn or song completely refutes this head on.

There are different clues when to take things literally and when not and i guess we have to be well versed in ancient Jewish culture to realise this.

For example if i started speaking the following words you would know not to interpret in literally -

There was was a man from Spain, who walked with the use of a cane…
Once upon a time…
Knock knock, who’s there… Bare … bare who …
A priest and a rabbi walk into a bar …

The bible (Greek biblio - collection of books) contains songs, laws, myth, legend, jokes, history and testimony and was written and probably rewritten over thousands of years. I value the bible very highly - but not all parts are supposed to be fact IMHO.

 

[da_nolo]

No – you would need many times the volume of the current oceans to flood Mt. Everest.

But not at the current hieght, nor at the current sea level. sea level was different and unmeasurable, as the hieght of many mountains were less thousands of years ago. and the current thought on plate activity towards the creation of and movement of mountains is not exact.

 

[Orogeny]

But not at the current hieght, nor at the current sea level. sea level was different and unmeasurable, as the hieght of many mountains were less thousands of years ago. and the current thought on plate activity towards the creation of and movement of mountains is not exact.

And you know the height of the mountains and what sea level was at the time of Noah how?

Peace

Tim

 

[da_nolo]

there are two creation stories at the beginning of Genesis and they differ. One has God creating the animals, one has man being creatd first. One has God naming the animals, the other has man naming the animals. And there are other differences.

The first ‘story’ rhymes in ancient Hebrew, and has repetitive structure like - and that was the first day…and that was the second day etc. It also repeats - and God saw that it was good. We don’t know the tune, but it looks very much like a song or hymn.

For example - one the fist day of Christmas my true love gave to me - etc etc.

So the fact that it looks like a song and it contradicts the second creation ‘story’ clearly looks like it is not to be taken literally…

The Bible may not, can not, does not…counterdict itself. If you believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then how could anyone dictate that the Word of God is wrong? NO ONE…however it is the understanding of the Bible that creates counterdiction. for instance, there are plenty of web pages and information on this website (Catholic.com) that contains reason towards the understanding of how the Bible does not counterdict itself, and for the most part…its in the entire Bible instead of just one little story or phrase. Also, the Bible must be read metephoricly if one is to understand the whole literaly. The rhyming of words in Hebrew, means nothing towards actuality as the story of Leonidas has been told in poems (which also rhyme so maybe its not a song at all), and that is 100 percent factual as well. also, the difference in stories does not create different literal meaning. the two stories expand and are explained differently to extend meaning differently, to extend different points or ideas. the second being we are made above the animals(different to the animals), the first being we are made from flesh, or dirt.

The Jews are very smart people. They consist of less than 1/2 percentage of the world yet they have received something like 20% of nobel prizes. It is very difficult to think the Jews copied this for thousands of years and didn’t say to eachother - hey this contradicts itself.

your percentage system is edgy, where did you get your statistics?

Also if you look, God creates the sun and the moon on the fourth day. You don’t have to be a 21st century science graduate to realise that for there to be a day and night you need the sun and the moon.
Just as we wouldn’t take - the 12 days of Christmas literally we shouldn’t take this literally either. But that doesn’t mean it gets ignored and disregarded. We study it as part of Jewish religious history to see what the Jews thought of certain things. For example, it was commonly thought back then by non Jewish peoples that the sun and moon and earth and mountains and stars were Gods and that we were the slaves of the Gods. The hymn or song completely refutes this head on…

Day never always had the same meaning of “sun and moon = full day” today we have 24 hrs. for a day and know that we do. however in the past days has been used to declare stages (some that may past longer than a literal day). With understanding the possible meanings of day, one may see that it does infact refer to stages rather 24 hour days, as it only applies to us, and we are not talking about us, we are talking about God, whos the creator of time, extends outside of time.
What is your comment on 12 days of Christmas anyways? We are extension of the Jewish people and complete with them, not without them. same as the NT is complete with the OT and not against it, nor contradicting it.

There are different clues when to take things literally and when not and i guess we have to be well versed in ancient Jewish culture to realise this…

the Bible must be read in both literal and metephorical meanings or senses. this has been reported as the only true way to grab full understanding of the Bible. you must not/should not read the Bible one way for one sentence, and an other way for a diffrerent sentence. otherwise you think the Good Word would be confusing (more so than it already is). Metephorical reading simply allows the deeper meaning of what is literal or what is said. even though you must think about it more or it is as a riddle, it still literaly is just that.

For example if i started speaking the following words you would know not to interpret in literally -

There was was a man from Spain, who walked with the use of a cane…
Once upon a time…
Knock knock, who’s there… Bare … bare who …
A priest and a rabbi walk into a bar …

though a priest and a rabbi may have never walked into a bar, the joke only works if you think of it litteraly. once upon a time, and the others…still describe riddles that describe the literal. though Goldilocks may not have existed, the literal meaning of the story does. which was the reason of writing the story to begin with.

The bible (Greek biblio - collection of books) contains songs, laws, myth, legend, jokes, history and testimony and was written and probably rewritten over thousands of years. I value the bible very highly - but not all parts are supposed to be fact IMHO.

The Bible does not nor has it ever counterdicted itself.
so what is fact? what a person deems worthy of truth? what is actknowledged to be true? the metephorical explains the literal. literal extends to the metephorical. it is all to the deeper meaning of what is. The travel of the Bible has not been that much, considering the travel restricted to that of the Catholic (Orthodox is included) Church.

 

[da_nolo]

heres a brain teaser…even the parables are literally true. everything in the Bible is literally true, since it is based on everything around us…the whole universe, heaven, hell, etc. whether you notice it or not. list a parable and it will be explained as true. pick the most metephorical quote from the Bible, and it will be literally true.

I mean, how would it not be? if the Word is Good and the Word is God, how could anyone say that the entire Word of God is not entirely, literally true, when God is literally True? Of coarse our enemy would try and counter this by creating some kind of field of ‘grey’, usualy done in that style.

teaser, is not so much of a tease

 

[codebilly]

What kind of science? Material or Spiritual?

How about Quantum and Relativistic Physics?

" I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me will not be walking in the dark, but will have the Light which is Life." - John 8:12

During the fourth watch of the night, 8 he came toward them, walking on the sea. - Matt. 14:25

The escape velocity from Earth’s gravitational force is = 11.2 Km/sec

Jesus, being Light of the World can travel at 300000 Km/sec, hence, He walks on water.

It is also a quantum physical phenomenon for particles to be observed in more than one place simultaneously.

After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. - Matt. 17:1-3

 

[da_nolo]

And you know the height of the mountains and what sea level was at the time of Noah how?

Peace

Tim

no I do not, thus the reason I deem it unsuitable to find out scientificly nor mathmaticly as we may only understand a partial development of the idea towards the hieghts and measurements through studing what they are now, vs what they will be noted as 10 years from now, and even longer than that.

 

[Orogeny]

no I do not, thus the reason I deem it unsuitable to find out scientificly nor mathmaticly as we may only understand a partial development of the idea towards the hieghts and measurements through studing what they are now, vs what they will be noted as 10 years from now, and even longer than that.

Let me see if I am understanding you. Because you don’t know the heights of mountains ~6,000 years ago, we are unable to determine what they were using science? Or are you saying that the entire subject of measuring is changing so rapidly that we may have a different method of measurement in 10 years?

I am confused.

Peace

Tim

 

[abucs]

I understand your thinking Da Nolo but i think one gets into trouble when deciding what is literal and what is metaphoric.

For example many people today (and i disagree with them) will talk about the ressurrection of Jesus (and some even his whole life) as being only a metaphor.

I don’t look at the bible as The Word of God in the sense that everything in it was written by God.

It was written by men, although i believe that God was present in certain ways. Again it is different in different books.

I think the New Testament Jewish writers were inspired in the sense that they lived amongst Jesus, and the companions of Jesus and saw God’s manifestation in the flesh.

The Jewish writers of the old testament may be inspired in the sense that they come from a community in which God was manifested spritually. Although i think the writings of the Old Testament are basically a collection of Jewish literary civilisation, including, but not restricted to, their historical relationship with God and their human efforts to understand that.

The thing is, God never said independantly which Jewish books and part books, were his own absolute literal word, or gave us a list of the things in those writings we should take literally and which we should take metaphorically.

I believe God does talk to us through the Hebrews and their writings, but in a very human way, inspired by the divine, not an absolute dictatorial way without human interference and subjectivity.

If you believe in God then you usually accept he will not contradict himself as he is truth itself. But that in my opinion does not also apply to the human authors interference and subjectivity.

I would say as Christians we are trying to find absolute truth - and the bible, inspired by God, helps us.

But we are a long way from truth itself, and so were the human authors - although much closer i’m sure than myself.

 

[edwest2]

No – you would need many times the volume of the current oceans to flood Mt. Everest.

And then there’s God, who apparently cannot do something unless a scientist confirms it. What would you have said or done if the risen Christ appeared to His disciples and you were there? Would you have been like Thomas? Would you have examined his wounds?

Peace,
Ed

 

[da_nolo]

Let me see if I am understanding you. Because you don’t know the heights of mountains ~6,000 years ago, we are unable to determine what they were using science? Or are you saying that the entire subject of measuring is changing so rapidly that we may have a different method of measurement in 10 years?

I am confused.

Peace

Tim

my wording is towards the measurements of mountains and sea levels, not towards overall science or inability to use science.

perhaps its not the rapidly changing, but the simple changing itself. The set measurements of past were not writen down and examined. therefore that change from then and now is not known. how could we even start to know what then was if we do not know that trail to now? like looking at a math answer but not knowing the equation. therefore exact measurements will not be available.

 

[da_nolo]

I understand your thinking Da Nolo but i think one gets into trouble when deciding what is literal and what is metaphoric.

For example many people today (and i disagree with them) will talk about the ressurrection of Jesus (and some even his whole life) as being only a metaphor.

I don’t look at the bible as The Word of God in the sense that everything in it was written by God.

It was written by men, although i believe that God was present in certain ways. Again it is different in different books.

I think the New Testament Jewish writers were inspired in the sense that they lived amongst Jesus, and the companions of Jesus and saw God’s manifestation in the flesh.

The Jewish writers of the old testament may be inspired in the sense that they come from a community in which God was manifested spritually. Although i think the writings of the Old Testament are basically a collection of Jewish literary civilisation, including, but not restricted to, their historical relationship with God and their human efforts to understand that.

The thing is, God never said independantly which Jewish books and part books, were his own absolute literal word, or gave us a list of the things in those writings we should take literally and which we should take metaphorically.

I believe God does talk to us through the Hebrews and their writings, but in a very human way, inspired by the divine, not an absolute dictatorial way without human interference and subjectivity.

If you believe in God then you usually accept he will not contradict himself as he is truth itself. But that in my opinion does not also apply to the human authors interference and subjectivity.

I would say as Christians we are trying to find absolute truth - and the bible, inspired by God, helps us.

But we are a long way from truth itself, and so were the human authors - although much closer i’m sure than myself.

Good observation abucs; very good. I can see where you are coming from, in some way.And trying to decide what is and is not…is very dangerous indeed.

so instead of examining for what is, what about what may be? the metaphors in many ways are an understanding towards the literal. we may understand an event, person, or even words by looking into the metaphorical sense. “I carry an armor of plastic” now if anyone reads that literaly would say that Im wearing a custome…but instead of trying to determine what is real or fake…lets take a look into possibilities. that literal sense may be what is meant, however there is another. the security, my spirit, what makes me…me…is plastic. it is feeble and weak no matter how strong it may look or appear (through actions or words). we may discover the best solution by understanding both parts.

Similar towards fighting another person; there are two outcomes and multiple possibilities towrads that out come. Being restricted towards to few possibilities may end up in a loss; where otherwise allows victory.

Good observation and much of what you said is factual. good job and God Bless!!!

 

[abucs]

Thanks Da Nolo.

I see great parallels between the Genesis story of man choosing the tree of life which brings death, and God/Jesus choosing the tree of death that brings life.

I also see great parallels between ISAAC carrying his wood on his back to the mountains of Moriah (‘where God provides’ - later Jerusalem) as being Abrahams sacrifice of his son, and even with the ram having his head stuck in a thorn bush there - and of course the crucifiction of Jesus.

So i can see great parallels and believe at some level God is talking to us although the Hebrew writings but as you say it is difficult to see how far to take things.

God bless,
Abucs.