"Religions are a tool to control people"

[mathematoons]

I’ve tried to evangelize to a couple of people, but this is what they told me when I asked their thoughts on Christianity. Any evidence I offer for the reality of Christianity, they find “evidence” to dismiss it. They go back to insisting that “organized religion” is nothing but “mind control” to “keep the masses in line.” How do I respond to this?

 

[WoundedIcon]

You could always teach them how much of their “free thought” we’re responsible for giving them. Show them how many times we gave them sciences and universities, etc.

Of course, they might just tell you that those were brainwashing factories.

EDIT: Or you can show them that the governments of history hated us for thinking for ourselves. How they saw us as a threat to their social order.

 

[DAAVEED1590]

You sould explain to them that, in fact, the Catholic Church is the Truth that liberates people form sin and the snares of the devil, and that their thoughts are unfounded.

But praying for them might be best. Our Lord never fails!

 

[josephback]

I’ve tried to evangelize to a couple of people, but this is what they told me when I asked their thoughts on Christianity. Any evidence I offer for the reality of Christianity, they find “evidence” to dismiss it. They go back to insisting that “organized religion” is nothing but “mind control” to “keep the masses in line.” How do I respond to this?

Prayer:thumbsup:

You might also want to look up the story of Howard Storm, a former atheist who had a near death experience. He claims that supernatural beings revealed to him that when he used to look at the Bible as an atheist he would only look for reasons to criticize it. In short, his mind was made up. People will see what they’re willing too.

 

[Julian0404]

I’ve tried to evangelize to a couple of people, but this is what they told me when I asked their thoughts on Christianity. Any evidence I offer for the reality of Christianity, they find “evidence” to dismiss it. They go back to insisting that “organized religion” is nothing but “mind control” to “keep the masses in line.” How do I respond to this?

You/we can only teach, it is the HOLY SPIRIT that coverts. Turn them over to the HOLY SPIRIT in prayer and ask that HE intercede in the conversion of their souls.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I would engage them in a discussion of how atheistic societies oppress and brainwash people. Using communism as an example would be good. It was a recent phenomenon and people can’t just dismiss it as something that does not relate to them.

Also, atheists often like to think that they are free because they do not have to follow a specific moral code. I often point out that in order for a society to work we all have to follow a set of norms. Often they are deeply inbedded and people cease to notice them, they have a taken for granted status. You could then focus on a number of such norms and take the discussion about institutional control and personal freedom further. The point would be to show that we are always controlled by somebody and that non-religious people are in no way free of control, even though they are not aware of it. Any kind of ideology or a belief system can thus be interpreted as a tool for establishing control. Like humanism, atheism, liberalism, socialism, etc.

I also like to ask people what would happen if they were taken out of their social context and how they would define themselves. Religion sorts out this problem, but a person who holds on to nothing deeper than a number of cultural customs and their trust in the government is in trouble. If they want to show that their existence goes deeper than these things, then you are essentially engaging in a theological argument. And then you ask the big questions they can’t avoid to answer anymore.

Basically, speak their language when discussing these things and show them their arguments are weak by not quoting the Bible. Otherwise they will not listen.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I’ve tried to evangelize to a couple of people, but this is what they told me when I asked their thoughts on Christianity. Any evidence I offer for the reality of Christianity, they find “evidence” to dismiss it. They go back to insisting that “organized religion” is nothing but “mind control” to “keep the masses in line.” How do I respond to this?

Organized religions are but a pointer to God, and they provide a pathway to seek holiness, but are not a substitute for God. Your friends are partly right; Christian religions do seek to train the mind. At first it is primarily because of threats and bribes (hell and heaven) but then it comes to returning the love that God gave us…

as in “… but most of all … because Thou art all good and deserving of all my love.”

Instead of telling them they are wrong (there are plenty of negative examples to support their view) try telling them, “I understand why you might feel that way, considering what you’ve seen and heard, but there is a deeper faith that is really quite liberating.”

Jesus’ teachings are very liberating. And that applies whether you believe He was actually God incarnate or not. His teachings help us understand how to behave when under the thumb of oppressors, and how to keep our minds and hearts free of despair even when we are under such control. The spiritual journey leads us to emotional stability, and contentment in life.

After 8 years of Catholic grade school and faithfully attending Mass until I went away to college, I was never inspired to actually purchase a Bible. That was a result from watching a particular TV preacher (NOT Jimmy Swaggart or Jim and Tammy Faye ) who showed me – perhaps unwittingly – that the wisdom in the Bible is so profound that even though I had my doubts about God’s existence, I saw that the Bible could help me get over some issues. In fact, his explanation of how faith works, had a striking parallel to a guy selling audio tapes for “self-talk” for $300. I thought, “well this guy is teaching me essentially the same thing, except using different vocabulary – one talks about the subconscious, the other about God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit… but mechanically they are the same … so do I spend $300 to listen to the one guy, or $11.95 to listen to the other?” Over time, and after a good amount of Bible study, the wisdom and truth in Jesus’s teachings became self-evident and I began to believe in their authenticity.

Listen to them, set aside the urge to immediately counter everything they say, and really hear them out. Ask them about their experiences that lead them to these conclusions. Listen first, then if the time is right, offer some of your own comments. Use their own concerns to base your next move. If they feel religion is oppressive, say, “I can understand you now, based on your experiences, and why you might feel the way you do … personally, though, I have found it to be quite liberating. I feel a meaning and purpose to life, and I have greater emotional stability and less fear.”

Quoting sources they don’t believe in, without a good reason (one that makes sense to them where they are now) is not likely to change their minds. Empathize with them. Hear them out. Acknowledge their feelings, instead of dismissing them as being misinformed. Show them that you’re not just trying to brainwash them, but to help show them a way of True Freedom so that they may live their lives to the fullest. Otherwise if you keep saying, "but see it says here in the Bible that … " followed by something that makes no sense to them, you might as well be a Jehovah’s Witness, annoying people who have no interest in the gobbledygook they are spouting. I’ve been there. Like I said, it was not somebody insisting I believe this or that [abstract idea with no apparent usefulness] or go to hell that got me interested; it was a person who showed me that there was something in that Book that could help me here and now, doubts and all.

I’ve heard, “people don’t care what you know until they know that you care.”

Then let the Holy Spirit take it from there. If you truly “feel their pain,” you will be in a good position to recognize what sorts of arguments they might want and need to hear in order to make progress, and they will be more receptive to hearing you.

Alan

 

[buffalo]

You could reply - so you like disorganized religion better?

Now, it is true that religious people contribute more to the common good and welfare.

---

An article that just came out:

** Cleaning up pre-riot **

                                                                                                                                **[Six ways to prevent a repeat of London, Vancouver, Toronto scene](http://www.torontosun.com/2011/08/19/cleaning-up-pre-riot-six-ways-to-prevent-a-repeat-of-london-vancouver-toronto-scenes)**

If the British riots disaster is not to be replicated elsewhere, here is a manifesto of advice. Ignore it at your smug peril.

1. Reduce the role of the state and, as a balance, increase the role of the family.
   For many years in Britain, parents have been told their children’s social, sexual, moral and cultural formation was better achieved by schools and social workers than mothers and fathers. Not only is the notion flawed philosophically, in practical terms it emasculates parents and enables children to act out every aggressive and narcissistic fantasy imaginable. In West Indian families, for example, there are numerous cases of poor but good and responsible parents who, in trying to discipline their children, are prosecuted by white, middle-class lawyers for spanking a kid who goes on to join a gang and spend years in prison. Equally, parents are not informed by law if their underage daughters tell doctors or teachers they are sexually active, but they are left to face the consequences when teenage pregnancy or STDs occur.
2. **Stop the war on religion. **Whatever your view of faith and God, the massive decline of religious observance and community in Britain has removed one of the glues that held the country together.
   When churches disappear, the vacuum is filled by gangs or tribes. Beyond this is the disappearance of moral standards and ethical absolutes. Witness how in the black community it is the Christian evangelical youths who are least touched by the anarchy.

 

[livnlern]

Organized religions are but a pointer to God, and they provide a pathway to seek holiness, but are not a substitute for God. Your friends are partly right; Christian religions do seek to train the mind. At first it is primarily because of threats and bribes (hell and heaven) but then it comes to returning the love that God gave us…

as in “… but most of all … because Thou art all good and deserving of all my love.”

Instead of telling them they are wrong (there are plenty of negative examples to support their view) try telling them, “I understand why you might feel that way, considering what you’ve seen and heard, but there is a deeper faith that is really quite liberating.”

Jesus’ teachings are very liberating. And that applies whether you believe He was actually God incarnate or not. His teachings help us understand how to behave when under the thumb of oppressors, and how to keep our minds and hearts free of despair even when we are under such control. The spiritual journey leads us to emotional stability, and contentment in life.

After 8 years of Catholic grade school and faithfully attending Mass until I went away to college, I was never inspired to actually purchase a Bible. That was a result from watching a particular TV preacher (NOT Jimmy Swaggart or Jim and Tammy Faye ) who showed me – perhaps unwittingly – that the wisdom in the Bible is so profound that even though I had my doubts about God’s existence, I saw that the Bible could help me get over some issues. In fact, his explanation of how faith works, had a striking parallel to a guy selling audio tapes for “self-talk” for $300. I thought, “well this guy is teaching me essentially the same thing, except using different vocabulary – one talks about the subconscious, the other about God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit… but mechanically they are the same … so do I spend $300 to listen to the one guy, or $11.95 to listen to the other?” Over time, and after a good amount of Bible study, the wisdom and truth in Jesus’s teachings became self-evident and I began to believe in their authenticity.

Listen to them, set aside the urge to immediately counter everything they say, and really hear them out. Ask them about their experiences that lead them to these conclusions. Listen first, then if the time is right, offer some of your own comments. Use their own concerns to base your next move. If they feel religion is oppressive, say, “I can understand you now, based on your experiences, and why you might feel the way you do … personally, though, I have found it to be quite liberating. I feel a meaning and purpose to life, and I have greater emotional stability and less fear.”

Quoting sources they don’t believe in, without a good reason (one that makes sense to them where they are now) is not likely to change their minds. Empathize with them. Hear them out. Acknowledge their feelings, instead of dismissing them as being misinformed. Show them that you’re not just trying to brainwash them, but to help show them a way of True Freedom so that they may live their lives to the fullest. Otherwise if you keep saying, "but see it says here in the Bible that … " followed by something that makes no sense to them, you might as well be a Jehovah’s Witness, annoying people who have no interest in the gobbledygook they are spouting. I’ve been there. Like I said, it was not somebody insisting I believe this or that [abstract idea with no apparent usefulness] or go to hell that got me interested; it was a person who showed me that there was something in that Book that could help me here and now, doubts and all.

I’ve heard, “people don’t care what you know until they know that you care.”

Then let the Holy Spirit take it from there. If you truly “feel their pain,” you will be in a good position to recognize what sorts of arguments they might want and need to hear in order to make progress, and they will be more receptive to hearing you.

Alan

Alan, you give really good advice here. Especially the part about listening to why the person feels the way they do. This will give some specifics. It’s hard to counter an opinion about organized religion if you only have a broad, general statement and nothing specific to discuss or refute.
Also, before the OP discusses this topic with his friend, he should pray to the Holy Spirit to give him the words to reach that person’s heart.

 

[joshrp]

I’ve tried to evangelize to a couple of people, but this is what they told me when I asked their thoughts on Christianity. Any evidence I offer for the reality of Christianity, they find “evidence” to dismiss it. They go back to insisting that “organized religion” is nothing but “mind control” to “keep the masses in line.” How do I respond to this?

Irreligion is a tool to keep the masses insane.

 

[Rence]

I’ve tried to evangelize to a couple of people, but this is what they told me when I asked their thoughts on Christianity. Any evidence I offer for the reality of Christianity, they find “evidence” to dismiss it. They go back to insisting that “organized religion” is nothing but “mind control” to “keep the masses in line.” How do I respond to this?

It takes a lot of faith to set aside your values and beliefs, and your conscience, and instead follow blindingly what the Church (or any religion) teaches. If someone doesn’t have faith in the Church, it will be difficult to make them believe that the Church has unrestricted authority over them, to which they should subject themselves.

Catholic teachings are hard, and they take a lot of discipline. If someone doesn’t believe in them, they’re not going to have an easy time accepting them. So it boils down to how much faith they have in the Church to know all the teachings correctly and without any bias, misunderstanding or misinformation.

I can’t advise you how to resond to this. You’d have to prove that the Church is the One True Church first before someone can be told they must comply with the Church’s rules.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

… the Church has unrestricted authority over them, to which they should subject themselves.

Unrestricted? Probably don’t want to tell them that.

You’d have to prove that the Church is the One True Church first before someone can be told they must comply with the Church’s rules.

I agree. And before they can accept that Catholicism is the One True Church, you need to show that it has some tangible benefits other than getting everyone to conform to behavioral codes – which is basically what they are asserting already. (A lab rat can be trained to take this path and not the other, through threats and bribes.) For example, the fruit of the Spirit – those are likely to be appealing to good people even though they may be unbelievers – the Church has tools to help us experience them.

Alan

 

[PJM]

=mathematoons;8269070]I’ve tried to evangelize to a couple of people, but this is what they told me when I asked their thoughts on Christianity. Any evidence I offer for the reality of Christianity, they find “evidence” to dismiss it. They go back to insisting that “organized religion” is nothing but “mind control” to “keep the masses in line.” How do I respond to this?

Actually there is more than a bit of truth in this understanding

BUT it WORKED for God [Yahweh and Christ] [Kinda sorta]

The First necessary step is to PROVE that God exist an then proceed from there. This is doable; but requires an open mind and will to use logic; NOT all can do this as they are so steeped in sin.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[AlanFromWichita]

The First necessary step is to PROVE that God exist an then proceed from there. This is doable; but requires an open mind and will to use logic; NOT all can do this as they are so steeped in sin.

Help me know how to do this. It seems to me we only know God through faith, which is in itself the “proof” (Heb 11:1) So if we could prove it, no longer would we need faith to believe it. Once I thought I had mathematical “proof” of God (based on that I statistically should have died many times by then) but it turned out I was entering a manic episode.

I can, however, make the case that science and math do not disprove God.

Alan

 

[AntalKalnoky]

I’ve tried to evangelize to a couple of people, but this is what they told me when I asked their thoughts on Christianity. Any evidence I offer for the reality of Christianity, they find “evidence” to dismiss it. They go back to insisting that “organized religion” is nothing but “mind control” to “keep the masses in line.” How do I respond to this?

(1) Ask that person How The Universe happenned, and all the Intelligence in it and him/her: The Creator Good, Proven By Science: The Big Bang theory, FR/Dr Georges Lemaitre 1920’s, Proven conclusivelly 1980’s by the Speed of Expansion of the entire Universe.
(2) The Catholic Church of 2,000 years, 1.3 Billion members teaches God IS LOVE, not punishment. Our Teaching is how To Live with Positive Attitude, for Our Good; The Church has All the Best Ideas.

                                                                                                                     The Best   Preventor of Guilt Complex   and Mental Problems is the Sacrament of Confession,   accoring to findings of  Dr  Sigmund  Freud,  of Freaudian fame, in the    1880's.  

                                                                                                                     (3)  There  are  "Rules"   for Everything in life,  for Our and Everyone's Good.  That is what  'rules'    are For:    Everyone's good.  It's    a  Stretch  to  call  all  Rules   something to  "Control  Us".  Driving through  a  Red Light  has  been shown to be  Very  Unwise.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I’ve tried to evangelize to a couple of people, but this is what they told me when I asked their thoughts on Christianity. Any evidence I offer for the reality of Christianity, they find “evidence” to dismiss it. They go back to insisting that “organized religion” is nothing but “mind control” to “keep the masses in line.” How do I respond to this?

If this is indeed mind control - I’ll take it any day.

Seriously, I don’t have anything brilliant to add that someone else hasn’t said. I’m kind of resigned in my life right now to just loving Jesus and letting his light shine through me so they’ll see Christ and his Church isn’t about control, rules, or some kind of stupid conformity thing, but about love of God, life, and other people. If they want in on it, good for them. If not, that’s their choice.

 

[Goldrock]

They go back to insisting that “organized religion” is nothing but “mind control” to “keep the masses in line.” How do I respond to this?

The religions of communism, secularism, hypersexualism, consumerism, etc. are mind control devices, whereas the Catholic religion liberates us from slavery to the devil and our passions. Do not expect the people you are trying to convince from accepting this truth, as they probably enjoy a false contentment living according to the flesh. I would know - I was once like this before the grace of God saved me from my sins. I have a friend who never tried to convince me while I played the prodigal son. He stayed silent and prayed the Rosary for me everyday. I suggest you do the same for these poor sinners, yourself, and for me. May God bless you and give you inner peace in the face of unbelief.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Seriously, I don’t have anything brilliant to add that someone else hasn’t said. I’m kind of resigned in my life right now to just loving Jesus and letting his light shine through me so they’ll see Christ and his Church isn’t about control, rules, or some kind of stupid conformity thing, but about love of God, life, and other people. If they want in on it, good for them. If not, that’s their choice.

 

[PJM]

=AlanFromWichita;8288386]Help me know how to do this. It seems to me we only know God through faith, which is in itself the “proof” (Heb 11:1) So if we could prove it, no longer would we need faith to believe it. Once I thought I had mathematical “proof” of God (based on that I statistically should have died many times by then) but it turned out I was entering a manic episode.

I can, however, make the case that science and math do not disprove God.

Alan

A BRIEF evidence for God’s Existence.

OK… I’ll try But because what I share makes sense to us, does not mean it will make sense to someone who is actively trying NOT to know God, because such an admission requires a change of life style most likely. that they may be unwilling to accept.

Science tells us that the Universe consist of BILLIONS of stars, planets and galaxies. BUT ONLY ONE, “EARTH” can be proven to be able to support life forms as we know them… WHY?

On “Planet Earth” there are HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of “living things” BUT ONLY ONE; “Humanity” has what is necessary in order to LOVE… WHY?

In order to love it is necessary to have 1. A mind 2. An intellect 3. A freewill; only humanity has these “THINGS” permanently attached to our “souls.” Souls for this discussion will be considered only as that “thing” that cause life to other ALL other things.

Science also tells us that “Like MUST originate from like.” Two apples can’t produce an orange.

So then what is the Origin of our “minds, intellects, and freewill’s”? We can’t inherent them from our birth parents because they are Spiritual “things” and people are “PHYSICAL” things. How do we know this?

Quantify for us your “freewill”. What is its shape, size, weight, color? CAN’T be done! We can give evidence of each of these; but cannot see, touch, smell, or hear them because they are SPIRITUAL THINGS. And because "spiritual things can logically and scientifically ONLY originate from other “spiritual things;” thus we can know that there is a “force, a source greater than us” somewhere in existence.

**WE choose to call this superior force our “God.” **

Another way that has never been logically addressed is the “First Cause.” Where did the beginning come from?

Hope you find this useful?

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Creator God, post 15, Item (1) above; sic.