Religious dilemma

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Persuader, I would suggest you watch the video The Passion of the Christ (directed by Mel Gibson… Jim Caviezel starred.)

There you will see as in no movie ever made the horror of what sin did to Christ, the role of Satan in the whole deal and the cost of man’s disobedience to God. During the filming, Gibson had his hands be the ones nailing in the spikes in Christ’s hands. As a symbol that it was all our sins that nailed Christ to the cross.

One of my favorite parts was when Simon was drafted to help carry the cross. And you saw his resistance turn to assistance, to joining in union, to a reluctance to be parted from the mystery of sharing in Christ’s passion and death.

A lot can be learned from watching the movie. It might help you understand on a level that words on the internet cannot convey.

If I could only have one movie on a desert island for the rest of my life, it would probably be that movie.

That day in Jerusalem was not the execution of a man by a petty Roman procurator. It was Satan’s attempt to keep man in the throes of disobedience and alienation from God and the horror of sin and the barrier it put to our relationship with God. And Christ’s triumph over it all.
 
Sin is an act… a bad act. An act that divides us from God. It lacks truth, goodness or beauty.(really, is drunkenness beautiful? Is adultery really goodness? Is there truth in stealing?) It has an outward component and an inward reality. It hardens our heart. Sin begets more sin… Ask the person dying in agony of AIDS. Seeing sin in this light rehabilitates the person who sees it for what it is… because it makes them want the opposite. It leads to a repulsion for that which would cause the innocent to suffer.
(a) Rehabilitation: I agree that sins or offenses can have several negative consequences, not only the direct consequences of a given action. It can also influence the emotional/moral sensitivities of the offender. However, I am not sure how what you are saying is an explanation or an argument for how Jesus’ sacrifice rehabilitates the offender. What I am understanding at the moment, is that people in general are supposed to see Jesus’ suffering, and by seeing this suffering see how awful the consequences of sin can be. Are you saying that a given person can read about this suffering in the Bible, for instance, and through this restore the blunted affect of repeated wrongdoing? I have to point out that this would mean that it wasn’t the sacrifice in itself that rehabilitates someone, but the human perception or symbolic quality of the sacrifice (people read about it, and understands how terrible their actions have been). This is a significant difference.
Yes, people would suffer even if Jesus didn’t suffer. the deterrence should remain. But His suffering and death gave the good an option of eternal union with God. It reestablished our right to be in His presence. He redeemed man. Yes, it’s a deterrence, but it also is a positive.
(b) Deterrent: I am not sure if you are explaining how the sacrifice of Jesus works as a deterrent in this scenario. What you seem to be describing is how we can see Christ as an example to be followed. What exactly does this have to with Jesus’ sacrifice as a deterrent?
It restores the proper order. Think of a body gone haywire. It gets all out of shape. And unhealthy. By doing exercise and fasting (penance) it restores the body to proper health and shape. Well our souls must also be disciplined to be restored to the proper health and shape. By fasting, penance, prayer, giving to the poor, acts of obedience to God. Christ showed us how on Calvary.

Christ was God also. So His act had a significance ours cannot. But in God’s eyes, someone offering up something or fasting or praying or doing penance for someone else, is like putting a deposit of Grace in the Eternal treasury that another soul can draw upon. We do that on earh in a little way… Or the guy that dives on the grenade and saves his buddies from death, giving his own life. He suffers, but others are restored. And our faith that man is good is restored on some level. Or it balances out the evil we do see.
(c) Restorative: Two things to say

(1) The concept of proper order or eternal treasury, what is that? Again, it seems like justice or punishment is some Platonian concept in this scenario. It’s like justice is a metaphysical force or idea which can be influenced by relevant events, but is causally disconnected from the events. I don’t see why you give practical examples where the events are causally connected to the restoration. Also, in restorative justice, it is supposed to be the offender who deals directly with the consequences of his actions (with the involvement of the victim). It shouldn’t be dealt with in a communal way without his participation. If it is, it is not restorative justice, but simply restoration.

(2) What is being restored doesn’t seem to be the direct consequences of the sins done to people in general. If that were the case, why would victims need psychological help or any other form of restoration (financial or otherwise)? If Jesus was supposed to restore everything every offender has ever done and will ever do, then all the consequences would be restored. It is a fact that they are not. Are you implying that this happens after death?
 
(a) Rehabilitation: I agree that sins or offenses can have several negative consequences, not only the direct consequences of a given action. It can also influence the emotional/moral sensitivities of the offender. However, I am not sure how what you are saying is an explanation or an argument for how Jesus’ sacrifice rehabilitates the offender. What I am understanding at the moment, is that people in general are supposed to see Jesus’ suffering, and by seeing this suffering see how awful the consequences of sin can be. Are you saying that a given person can read about this suffering in the Bible, for instance, and through this restore the blunted affect of repeated wrongdoing? I have to point out that this would mean that it wasn’t the sacrifice in itself that rehabilitates someone, but the human perception or symbolic quality of the sacrifice (people read about it, and understands how terrible their actions have been). This is a significant difference.
Persuader, have you ever seen an action so good, so holy, it makes you want to be a better person? In our country, we have Medal of Honor awardees… soldiers in battle who have put themselves at risk of death or died so that others may live. You read about people like that, truly unselfish acts of love and heroism… it humbles you. Yes, someone can read about this horrible suffering in the Bible, or see the movie, and it can awaken in them the desire to be better. To be heroic too. You are trying to separate an act from the emotions it arouses in others around us. We do not live in a vacuum. Good acts and bad acts affect those around us. The sacrifice and the perception of those who witness are entwined. His suffering was a Divine Communication of Love from Him to us. We communicate through actions as well as words. It was a love letter from the Cross saying THIS IS HOW MUCH VALUE YOU HAVE. I WOULD HAVE DIED FOR YOU IF YOU WERE THE ONLY SOUL ON EARTH. Have you ever loved someone enough to die for them? THAT is the message of Calvary that restores and converts and makes us ashamed to commit transgressions against someone who loves us that much.
(b) Deterrent: I am not sure if you are explaining how the sacrifice of Jesus works as a deterrent in this scenario. What you seem to be describing is how we can see Christ as an example to be followed. What exactly does this have to with Jesus’ sacrifice as a deterrent?
Again, if you had someone who loved you that much, would YOU spit in His face? Would you slap Him? He said “If you love me, you will obey my Commandments.” You see how much HE loved YOU. That should be a deterrent to disobedience.
(c) Restorative: Two things to say
(1) The concept of proper order or eternal treasury, what is that? Again, it seems like justice or punishment is some Platonian concept in this scenario. It’s like justice is a metaphysical force or idea which can be influenced by relevant events, but is causally disconnected from the events. I don’t see why you give practical examples where the events are causally connected to the restoration. Also, in restorative justice, it is supposed to be the offender who deals directly with the consequences of his actions (with the involvement of the victim). It shouldn’t be dealt with in a communal way without his participation. If it is, it is not restorative justice, but simply restoration.
God’s Justice is Eternal and Perfect. He cannot be separated from His justice. Anything we have on earth is a cloudy mirror and a dim reflection of the Perfect Justice He has in store for us. It IS a metaphysical force. And it is embodied in reality and events here, not disconnected. You are picking at nits about causal connections and restorations and ignoring the big picture. God makes all things new. At the end of time, that which is unjust and imperfect will pass away. Those who were unjust will meet Divine Justice. On earth we see many times that some of the worst offenders get away with everything and seem to avoid justice. God says in the Bible that eventually at the final harvest the wheat will be separated from the weeds and the weeds will be bundled up and thrown into the everlasting fire. Communal justice can help a victim. (Not ALL people are bad, etc.) but often victims have to trust that the God who created the human eye knows all and sees all and HE will have the final say. Restoration does not come about here on earth. That is what eternity is for.
 
(2) What is being restored doesn’t seem to be the direct consequences of the sins done to people in general. If that were the case, why would victims need psychological help or any other form of restoration (financial or otherwise)? If Jesus was supposed to restore everything every offender has ever done and will ever do, then all the consequences would be restored. It is a fact that they are not. Are you implying that this happens after death?
We will face the direct consequences of our sins when we confront God Himself. If we are sorry and atone, we will have forgiveness. If we have final impenitence, then we have separated ourselves from God’s mercy by our own will. But there are earthly effects to sin apart from that kind of direct spiritual consequence. Sin always has social consequences. Even private sins that we think no one knows about somehow affect our dealings with people and have consequences. But we still bear scars and effects from our sins and the sins of others. It repairs, maybe. But can anyone so damaged ever be fully restored? That is what heaven does. Every tear is wiped away, every wound healed…Jesus’s death did not restore things in this world. It opened the gates of heaven to those who call on God’s mercy so that we might be happy with Him in the next. Real restoration happens after death. Christ’s death on the Cross looked like the ultimate defeat When really, it was the darkest moment just before the ultimate triumph. HE was showing US that the real resurrection and restoration comes AFTER death.

He said Unless a grain of wheat falls on the ground and dies, it shall not have life. In the natural order, a seed has to decay, split open and THEN the REAL plant starts to grow. It’s a metaphor He used for death and rebirth in eternity.
 
Ever seen people suffering and the world joins in and suffers with them? It lightens the load. Look at Poland. Does it help them that many in the world have shed a tear for them? There is a solidarity in the pain. Sometimes the offender never apologizes. But others step in and attempt to make amends for a sin they did not commit. Like the people who come repair the vandalized house. What is restored? Faith in humanity. That strangers would care.

We had a drunk driver in town who maimed a young woman horribly for life. Her suffering was part of his rehabilitation. When he realized what he had done to her. Had he been able to just drive on, he might have done it over and over. Her pain and suffering became his guilt and his suffering too. Other people seeing what his actions did to her rethought their own views of drunk driving. The effects of his sin have lasted for years. God does not seek retribution. He seeks restoration. Or He could have squashed humanity like a bug a zillion years ago.
I agree that solidarity is a good thing, but I don’t see solidarity as suffering. Anyway, this only relates to Jesus’ sacrifice indirectly. This is supposed to be about how Jesus encourages the offender to restore the damage he has caused, and perhaps about how the offender does it, not how he might influence people into solidarity with victims. I think we might be speaking of different things here. Repairing the house without the involvement of the offender would not be seen as restorative justice. If the offender is not taking an active part, it is not restorative justice. That doesn’t mean the victim cannot be restored. This is very logical. The offender is the one getting punished. So, if the offender is not involved, we are not discussing the punishment of the offender but the restoration of the victim. Restorative justice only relates to the victim if it is part of the punishment given to the offender. He need to participate. If Jesus’ suffering on the cross cannot be directly related to the punishment of the offender, but only to the restoration of the victim, what you are essentially saying is that this part of Jesus’ suffering on the cross is not meant as restorative justice (as in punishment) but as restoration. That is fine, but we were discussing Jesus’ suffering in the context of punishment (remember the three reasons listed for punishing Jesus), not restoration.
Oh, I know more than you think I do about this. The Romans also left the bodies hanging on the crosses as a reminder to future rebels and criminals. The English used that tactic also… drawing and quartering and sending the parts to all corners of the Empire. A warning to be sure. We do send offenders to jail. But in our country we try not to make jail too pleasant for them. Their years shouldn’t be lived out in a comfort denied their victims.
I shouldn’t make assumptions about your level of knowledge. Regardless, I think scholars agree that retributive punishment was the way they thought about things back in the day. When you say you try not to make jail pleasant for the offenders, this is in the spirit of retributive punishment. I am not saying it is necessarily wrong, but you need to categorize correctly. It is an interesting question how pleasant jail should be, but not relevant to the discussion.

Let me tell you how I understand it now. Jesus is supposed to deal with the offenses committed, and all the offenses that will be committed in the future. The way this is done is by punishing Jesus in a specific way. He is in this way taking the punishment for what the offenders have done. How this transfer happens is not clear. It seems to be some kind of metaphysical construct doing the transferring. Anyway, Jesus now has the responsibility of righting the wrongs (?). So he does this by suffering. That seems to be the action taken that is meant to make things right.

If we imagine a similar situation. Let’s say a person named John rapes someone. Instead of him, a person named Alex says: “I will suffer for this”, and agrees to being tortured. So, what is different for Jesus? Just like Jesus, Alex could say that the ugliness of torture is the consequence of sin. People could interpret it like a deterrent (I don’t want to experience that). They might see it as rehabilitating (this is how terrible sin is, and I don’t want any part of it). They might even see it as restorative (I can relate to the pain of Alex, and through him the pain of John’s victim). This seems very general. There is, of course, a difference in magnitude between Alex and Jesus, since Jesus is the son of God and the offenses on his account are several. However, that you can find some restorative, rehabilitating or deterring aspects in relation to retributive justice, doesn’t mean that it is not essentially retributive justice. And this sounds like retributive justice. John’s victim suffered, so John should suffer (Alex does it instead). Victims suffered, so the offenders should suffer (Jesus does it instead).
 
If Jesus’ suffering on the cross cannot be directly related to the punishment of the offender, but only to the restoration of the victim, what you are essentially saying is that this part of Jesus’ suffering on the cross is not meant as restorative justice (as in punishment) but as restoration.
Jesus’ suffering on the cross was directly related to our punishment because HE, though sinless, took upon Himself the weight and guilt of our sins. HE got punished as the guilty man. Though Pilate saw no guilt in him, the crowd condemned Him. He stood in the place of all humanity and was punished. He restored mankind to its proper status by HIS suffering.

Solidarity isn’t suffering. Maybe compassion is a better word. From the Latin words “to suffer with.”

In the scenario repairing the house restores the victim to his proper place. It does not restore the offender. Sometimes on earth the offender never pays the price for his own sin. He never comes to a true contrition for his sins. If someone steals my car, it does help if the neighbors take up a collection and give me transportation again. It would help me as the victim more if the person who did it came with his own money or my car back and apologized. God wants that apology also from us. For real and complete justice to be effected, the perpetrator must be sorry and tell the victim so. And make it up personally. But that is not our fallen human nature. And man lived for centuries not sorry to God and not apologizing and not atoning. So God sent His Son to do the job.

Jesus’s suffering on the cross CAN be related to the punishment of the offender. But only when we unite ourselves with it. HE said we can’t get to heaven unless we “deny our very selves, take up our cross and follow him.” WE have to in our own lives suffer in union with Christ and pay for our sins. In doing so, we personally satisfy God’s justice and can claim heaven because Christ did it for us first. But it’s a voluntary acceptance on our part that we also will participate in HIS suffering and redemptive act in our own lives. Sometimes in the very act of punishment, someone is restored. Our prisons are full of people who never would have taken an account of their lives unless they had to sit in jail and think about it and fix themselves. So the punitive and restorative aspect of justice is not separated. But that requires an act of will on their part to change.

Christ came first as Victim and Savior. He paid our debt. The next time He comes it will be as Judge. He showed us how to live. He showed us the magnitude of sin. He paid for our redemption with His suffering and blood. What we do with that is up to us.

You cannot understand His death without undrestanding the concept of the Jewish practice of the holocaust or sin offering where an animal, a spotless lamb, was sacrificed in atonement for sin. God said He didn’t desire that anymore. What HE wanted was obedience to His will. And Christ’s death was that sacrifice of the Lamb of God in perfect Obedience to God’s will, the God who sent Him to die for us.
 
You read about people like that, truly unselfish acts of love and heroism… it humbles you. Yes, someone can read about this horrible suffering in the Bible, or see the movie, and it can awaken in them the desire to be better. To be heroic too. You are trying to separate an act from the emotions it arouses in others around us. We do not live in a vacuum. Good acts and bad acts affect those around us. The sacrifice and the perception of those who witness are entwined. His suffering was a Divine Communication of Love from Him to us. We communicate through actions as well as words. It was a love letter from the Cross saying THIS IS HOW MUCH VALUE YOU HAVE. I WOULD HAVE DIED FOR YOU IF YOU WERE THE ONLY SOUL ON EARTH. Have you ever loved someone enough to die for them? THAT is the message of Calvary that restores…
Yes, isn’t that what I said (essentially)?
Again, if you had someone who loved you that much, would YOU spit in His face? Would you slap Him? He said “If you love me, you will obey my Commandments.” You see how much HE loved YOU. That should be a deterrent to disobedience.
To be honest, I don’t see that love requires obedience. I wouldn’t necessarily obey someone just because they loved me, but if God exists, I would probably agree with him as he should be able to explain what was wrong with what I believe about any given subject.
God’s Justice is Eternal and Perfect. He cannot be separated from His justice. Anything we have on earth is a cloudy mirror and a dim reflection of the Perfect Justice He has in store for us. It IS a metaphysical force. And it is embodied in reality and events here, not disconnected. You are picking at nits about causal connections and restorations and ignoring the big picture. God makes all things new. At the end of time, that which is unjust and imperfect will pass away. Those who were unjust will meet Divine Justice. On earth we see many times that some of the worst offenders get away with everything and seem to avoid justice. God says in the Bible that eventually at the final harvest the wheat will be separated from the weeds and the weeds will be bundled up and thrown into the everlasting fire. Communal justice can help a victim. (Not ALL people are bad, etc.) but often victims have to trust that the God who created the human eye knows all and sees all and HE will have the final say. Restoration does not come about here on earth. That is what eternity is for.
This is illuminating, but I am afraid these are things I cannot make sense of (as I suspected). I don’t understand justice as a metaphysical force, for instance. Do you?
 
In the scenario repairing the house restores the victim to his proper place. It does not restore the offender. Sometimes on earth the offender never pays the price for his own sin. He never comes to a true contrition for his sins. If someone steals my car, it does help if the neighbors take up a collection and give me transportation again. It would help me as the victim more if the person who did it came with his own money or my car back and apologized. God wants that apology also from us. For real and complete justice to be effected, the perpetrator must be sorry and tell the victim so. And make it up personally. But that is not our fallen human nature. And man lived for centuries not sorry to God and not apologizing and not atoning. So God sent His Son to do the job.

Jesus’s suffering on the cross CAN be related to the punishment of the offender. But only when we unite ourselves with it. HE said we can’t get to heaven unless we “deny our very selves, take up our cross and follow him.” WE have to in our own lives suffer in union with Christ and pay for our sins. In doing so, we personally satisfy God’s justice and can claim heaven because Christ did it for us first. But it’s a voluntary acceptance on our part that we also will participate in HIS suffering and redemptive act in our own lives. Sometimes in the very act of punishment, someone is restored. Our prisons are full of people who never would have taken an account of their lives unless they had to sit in jail and think about it and fix themselves. So the punitive and restorative aspect of justice is not separated. But that requires an act of will on their part to change.

Christ came first as Victim and Savior. He paid our debt. The next time He comes it will be as Judge. He showed us how to live. He showed us the magnitude of sin. He paid for our redemption with His suffering and blood. What we do with that is up to us.

You cannot understand His death without undrestanding the concept of the Jewish practice of the holocaust or sin offering where an animal, a spotless lamb, was sacrificed in atonement for sin. God said He didn’t desire that anymore. What HE wanted was obedience to His will. And Christ’s death was that sacrifice of the Lamb of God in perfect Obedience to God’s will, the God who sent Him to die for us.
Well, restorative justice is not about restoring the offender. That is what rehabilitative justice is about. What you seem to say is that a real and complete justice can only be accomplished by the offender apologizing and restoring losses for his victims. If that is the case, I would suspect God would just ask us of this when we die. Now, you also say that Jesus is sent to fix this, but he is only going to fix things completely after we are dead. So, what is the situation then? Is it Jesus who will fix it, or will God ask us to do it. Or will Jesus only do it if we refuse? This is confusing.

I think I understand what you write about uniting. What you seem to be saying is that everyone is an offender or a sinner, and that the punishment for our sins are paid if we “suffer with” Jesus. However, I still cannot see how this is restorative to the victim. I, as an offender, might suffer with Jesus in this way, but I cannot see how my suffering will restore the victims of my actions. You seem to be mixing the rehabilitation of the offender with the restoration of the victim.
 
If we imagine a similar situation. Let’s say a person named John rapes someone. Instead of him, a person named Alex says: “I will suffer for this”, and agrees to being tortured. So, what is different for Jesus? Just like Jesus, Alex could say that the ugliness of torture is the consequence of sin. People could interpret it like a deterrent (I don’t want to experience that). They might see it as rehabilitating (this is how terrible sin is, and I don’t want any part of it). They might even see it as restorative (I can relate to the pain of Alex, and through him the pain of John’s victim). This seems very general. There is, of course, a difference in magnitude between Alex and Jesus, since Jesus is the son of God and the offenses on his account are several. However, that you can find some restorative, rehabilitating or deterring aspects in relation to retributive justice, doesn’t mean that it is not essentially retributive justice. And this sounds like retributive justice. John’s victim suffered, so John should suffer (Alex does it instead). Victims suffered, so the offenders should suffer (Jesus does it instead).
Sort of…
Say John rapes someone knowing his whole life he was taught that the wages of sin is death. Some people are deterred from rape because of that. But John isn’t and he is caught. The judge sentences him to death. John is grief stricken and sad. Maybe not because of his victim’s pain, but his own fear for himself and his fate. Now, imagine if the Judge’s son says, “I will die in your place.” He turns himself in and says he will bear the guilt and claim the guilt for the act and the punishment. John would be a fool not to be grateful. And that gratitude itself would make many men think about their lives and if they want to be a horrible person. Maybe seeing the Judge’s Son die for him makes John change. No, the victim’s physical integrity isn’t restored. Someone paid for that sin, but not the guilty person. Complete justice wouldn’t come about until he was so moved by the sacrifice on his behalf and his own escape of a horrible fate to make up to the victim, pay her, fast, do penance, and apologize to her. Suffering isn’t an end in and of itself. Otherwise it’s a waste. It’s needless and stupid. Only when suffering is the beginning of the ability to see others with compassion, or the tool to express sorrow for our own sins, or we offer our sufferings in union with Christ’s that it has any meaning at all. Or when it arouses in others compassion and love and the desire to alleviate it.

You’re asking some big questions and treading around the edges of the mystery of the human person and his participation in the story of Salvation, Persuader.

We have a prayer that kind of talks about our view of justice and sin. It’s the Act of Contrition. I’ll give you the old form.

Think of the words.

Oh my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended You.
I detest all my sins because of Thy just punishment,
but most of all because they offend you, My God,
Who are all good and deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve with the help of Your grace
to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin.

See, God’s punishment will be just. And so we should avoid sin because of that. But that is imperfect contrition. Perfect contrition is seeing His love for us in the Crucifix and not wanting to offend God who deserves all our love. When our attitude goes from fearing punitive justice to wanting not to offend God’s love, that restores us to union with God. And we avoid sin in the future with the help of His grace he poured out with His blood from the cross, to sin no more.

Just like with people we live with. You don’t treat them well so they won’t punch you in the face. You treat them well because you love them. But babies are little savages and have to be taught first with “punitive justice” that they don’t bite and hit. (Pat little hand hard. NO!) Eventually they grow a conscience and don’t bite and hit because they don’t want to hurt their sibling or friend. There are levels of justice… some higher than others as you have probably gathered. Calvary satisfies all of them, and depending where we are in our path to God, we start on one or other rung of that ladder and unite ourselves to that perfect act of Divine justice.

Think of it as a debt. I steal a king’s money. 4 billion euros. Then I try to repay it with old Confederate money from my country. Which is worthless to the king. I could shovel buckets of such money at the king and it wouldn’t satisfy the debt I owe you. Now, say the king sets up a printing press and made his own currency. Then paid himself from that. THAT money is worthy to him. I stand there and watch him print money to satisfy my debt. That doesnt’ deobligate ME from now having to put in time and hours to work away all that money. The king has his money, but my participation in restoring my right relationship with the king is not finished. Now, he could make me work for a 4 billion Euro debt at 1 Euro an hour. I could never really repay that debt, could I? But he has his money. And he is infinitely compassionate. So he says, Look, you’re now my employee and I’m your boss. I’ll hire you for 1 billion Euros a year and you only have to work 4 years. Then you can consider the debt paid. If you had to travel and beg all over Europe for the money you’d never do it on your own. But he is king and has the printing press. So HE does most of the work. You do participate in it. But without HIS assistance and printing press you could never do it alone. And you are grateful for his compassion and mercy and you vow not to ever test it again. His kindness has made you loyal. And more merciful to others because you were shown mercy. That’s kind of a metaphor that might make it clearer.
 
To be honest, I don’t see that love requires obedience. I wouldn’t necessarily obey someone just because they loved me, but if God exists, I would probably agree with him as he should be able to explain what was wrong with what I believe about any given subject.
God told us “If you love me, you will obey My Commandments.” You obey someone because you love them. You are subject to them. Or you obey a boss because he can make you unemployed very quickly. We obey God because HE made us to know Him, love Him and serve Him in this world. So as to be happy with Him in the next. Just like when you were a child and you obeyed your parents out of love and a desire not to displease them. God’s rules are reasonable and designed to keep us all well and safe.

When men live apart from those rules, chaos ensues. Read your headlines. See the tragedies. Every one of them at some level is someone violating one of the ten commandments.

And what we do to others, we do to God. So when we mistreat others, we are offending God.

God does ask for us to restore what we destroyed. But we can start doing it on earth. We don’t have to wait till we die to show a sorrow for what we broke and fix it. We can show true purpose of amendment here and now. Less to pay for after death. The thing about sin and what makes it so evil is often no matter how sorry we are, we can never fix what we destroyed. We can try, but we wound people and cause damage and can never undo the effects in the lives of others. And often they never get justice or an apology here on earth. That fuels a lot of pain. How many people are angriest about something not because of what they lost but because someone “got away with it.” It violates a very deep sense in us that justice should be done. That people should be sorry and fix what they broke.

Sometimes it happens. Sometimes the offender sees the damage he caused and it makes him truly sorry and he works to repay it. And his tears of regret move his victim to healing also. And forgiveness occurs. THAT is the ultimate justice and restoration… when someone says they’re sorry and works to fix things and the other offers forgiveness and it is accepted. That is what Calvary is about. Rehabilitation and restoration go together. Sin has social consequences. So does restoration. Relationships and trust are restored. Between us and God, between us and each other.

The Cross has a vertical beam and a lateral beam showing how that act of sacrifice restored our relationship with each other (lateral) as well as our relationship with God. (vertical)
 
Suffering isn’t an end in and of itself. Otherwise it’s a waste. It’s needless and stupid. Only when suffering is the beginning of the ability to see others with compassion, or the tool to express sorrow for our own sins, or we offer our sufferings in union with Christ’s that it has any meaning at all. Or when it arouses in others compassion and love and the desire to alleviate it.
Well, the function of the suffering seems to be that it might make the offender understand what he has done. This type of miscarriage of justice (understood as a judicial concept) seems like a very excessive way of doing it . If the offender is supposed to restore things later when he is dead, it seems to me like there would be other ways to make the offender realize that he has done wrong. Also, if the function of the suffering is just to make the offender see how wrong he was, how is the suffering a payment towards the sins committed?
 
God told us “If you love me, you will obey My Commandments.” You obey someone because you love them. You are subject to them. Or you obey a boss because he can make you unemployed very quickly. We obey God because HE made us to know Him, love Him and serve Him in this world. So as to be happy with Him in the next. Just like when you were a child and you obeyed your parents out of love and a desire not to displease them. God’s rules are reasonable and designed to keep us all well and safe.
Well, as it happens, I did not always obey my parents 😉

I can only repeat what I said. I would not obey someone because I loved them. I might obey a boss, but not because I love him. I might obey God, but again, why would love decide the matter? I might very well want to obey God if I loved him, but rationally I shouldn’t be doing it. As I said, I am sure I would obey God as I am sure he would explain the reasoning to me. Actually, this is what a parent should try do to, and what a boss should try to do. They should try to make their child of employee understand why they should do as they say. Of course, the child or the employee might be too dumb or otherwise incapable of understanding the reasoning. But that is a different matter.
 
In the old Jewish law they had Eye for an Eye justice. You put someone’s eye out, you lost yours. See? It’s equal!

It didn’t restore the sight to the other guy though.

In physics every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Same in the metaphysical world.

Sin has consequences. At heart it is a violation of God’s Just Order of things. You seen the symbol of justice in our country? Scales. Take something off one scale and the other goes down. In a just world the scales are balanced.

Our actions cause imbalance. Like the guy who maimed the girl in the drunk driving accident. He had to confront this horribly disfigured woman knowing HIS actions did that to her. He can never restore her beautiful face again. She will suffer the rest of her life. So will he. It’s called guilt. That’s a word we haven’t used here much. Guilt is good. It’s that pain WE feel when we hurt someone else. It can be the starting point to real justice and real remorse and real rehabilitation. Christ took on Himself the guilt of our sins. He felt remorse for them in the midst of a crowd that didn’t. That jeered and spit at Him. He begged God to forgive them becuase they didn’t know what they were doing. HIS cry was on our behalf, asking for pardon for our sins.

When someone feels guilty, they often beg forgiveness. The guy in the car accident as part of his punishment goes around telling his tale. Talking about it to kids so they won’t do the same thing. Her suffering is a weight on him. He can never undo that. He knows it. He can use it for a greater good though. He should be restoring things now. Don’t wait till you’re dead.

You really can’t MAKE someone feel they have done something wrong. That has to come from them. Many people do horrible things and don’t feel an ounce of guilt or suffering. They don’t care to make up for what they do. God’s justice waits for them. The Eternal Scales WILL be balanced.

But if someone actuallly is sorry and goes out of their way to pay for what they did, it does balance those eternal scales somewhat.

An animal suffering doesn’t know why it’s suffering. It is a pitiful sight. We want to end it. But a human suffering, especially if it’s because of something they did, knows they brought it on themselves and deserved it. It isn’t so pitiful because they have a consciousness of why it is happening. It isn’t senseless. Especially if it leads to the thought of "This wouldn’t have happened if I had done what I was supposed to do. I’m sorry, God. "
 
Persuader, did you ever disobey your mom and see the look of disappointment or sadness on her face and it hurt worse than any punishment she could have given you? Your love for her means you want to please her. So seeing that you didn’t caused you pain.

That is a small reflection and an imperfect one of our relationship with God.

Love demands obedience. You shouldn’t have to give a list of reasons to a kid to stay in after dark. He should do it because he loves and honors you. He may not be aware of all the dangers out there. He’s a stupid kid who will get in trouble without a smarter parent looking out for him. You as a parent know better.

Until you can say you would obey someone because you loved them, you have not really loved. Not completely. You have not surrendered yourself to someone else and acted unquestioningly in trust of their judgment and knowlege they want your good above all things.

If your fiancee said “Do this for me.” would you obey? THAT is love. If it’s that important to her, she shouldn’t have to give you 45 reasons to do it. The fact that you love her should compel you to do her will.

You can give 45 reasons to someone and if those reasons aren’t good enough for THEM, due to ignorance or willfulness, you won’t have compliance. But love will make someone say “I don’t understand. But I trust you. I will do as you say.” That was Christ in the Garden at Gethsemane, knowing what God demanded of him, not wanting to do it, but surrendering his will out of love.
 
In the old Jewish law they had Eye for an Eye justice. You put someone’s eye out, you lost yours. See? It’s equal!

It didn’t restore the sight to the other guy though.

In physics every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Same in the metaphysical world.

Sin has consequences. At heart it is a violation of God’s Just Order of things. You seen the symbol of justice in our country? Scales. Take something off one scale and the other goes down. In a just world the scales are balanced.

Our actions cause imbalance. Like the guy who maimed the girl in the drunk driving accident. He had to confront this horribly disfigured woman knowing HIS actions did that to her. He can never restore her beautiful face again. She will suffer the rest of her life. So will he. It’s called guilt. That’s a word we haven’t used here much. Guilt is good. It’s that pain WE feel when we hurt someone else. It can be the starting point to real justice and real remorse and real rehabilitation. Christ took on Himself the guilt of our sins. He felt remorse for them in the midst of a crowd that didn’t. That jeered and spit at Him. He begged God to forgive them becuase they didn’t know what they were doing. HIS cry was on our behalf, asking for pardon for our sins.

When someone feels guilty, they often beg forgiveness. The guy in the car accident as part of his punishment goes around telling his tale. Talking about it to kids so they won’t do the same thing. Her suffering is a weight on him. He can never undo that. He knows it. He can use it for a greater good though. He should be restoring things now. Don’t wait till you’re dead.

You really can’t MAKE someone feel they have done something wrong. That has to come from them. Many people do horrible things and don’t feel an ounce of guilt or suffering. They don’t care to make up for what they do. God’s justice waits for them. The Eternal Scales WILL be balanced.

But if someone actuallly is sorry and goes out of their way to pay for what they did, it does balance those eternal scales somewhat.

An animal suffering doesn’t know why it’s suffering. It is a pitiful sight. We want to end it. But a human suffering, especially if it’s because of something they did, knows they brought it on themselves and deserved it. It isn’t so pitiful because they have a consciousness of why it is happening. It isn’t senseless. Especially if it leads to the thought of "This wouldn’t have happened if I had done what I was supposed to do. I’m sorry, God. "
Retributive justice it is then. I am reading some christian material on this, and it says that the primary reason for Jesus’ suffering is retribution. They use the word “propitiation”.

There is probably people who do not feel guilt for their wrongdoings, but I would think that are mostly psychopaths. We were presented with an interesting thought-experiment regarding this in a class on punishment. The professor said that true psychopaths have a different brain structure than other people in the areas controlling empathy, which is true. We know that if specific areas in the brain are damaged on non-psychopaths, they will lose their empathy. The very possibility of understanding the feelings of someone else is completely lost. The though-experiment is this:

Let’s say we have a serial-killer psychopath. He is caught and put on trial. Now, we have the option of either (1) putting him in jail indefinitely, or (2) give him a pill that will restore his feeling of empathy and presumably rehabilitate him completely. I chose (2), which is non-retributive.

What do you think God would do? Presumably, he would cure psychopaths in heaven. Would he still punish them in other ways?
 
If your fiancee said “Do this for me.” would you obey? THAT is love. If it’s that important to her, she shouldn’t have to give you 45 reasons to do it. The fact that you love her should compel you to do her will.

You can give 45 reasons to someone and if those reasons aren’t good enough for THEM, due to ignorance or willfulness, you won’t have compliance. But love will make someone say “I don’t understand. But I trust you. I will do as you say.” That was Christ in the Garden at Gethsemane, knowing what God demanded of him, not wanting to do it, but surrendering his will out of love.
Well, I don’t necessarily require a reason for everything. It depends on what is being demanded, right? I wouldn’t give it à la carte, and I don’t think you would either. I have heard that a parents love for her child is the strongest form of love. If so, then presumably you should do as your child says since you love it? I don’t think you would.
 
No, the child obeys out of love. There is a subordination to the relationship. I cannot bend my will to a child whose will is unformed, uninformed and void of discipline.

Obedience is given by the subordinate to the leader. Out of love in its perfect form. Ever seen a soldier where his men under him love him and trust him so much they would follow him anywhere? THAT kind of love. Like the Centurion who said to Christ “I too am a man under authority.” Those who lead first must know how to obey. Someone who has never submitted in loving obedience will have trouble getting that from those under him when he assumes a role of authority.

We are supposed to love God because He is all Good. We love the Good. What pleases God, pleases us. So we love God and do as we please, because our will is united with HIS. What pleases him pleases us. It isn’t an onerous obedience. It’s one given in love.

God loves us and we owe HIM love in return. Christ told us we prove that love by uniting our will with HIS in complete obedience. He gave us 10 things to do to show our love. That’s it. Our proof of our love.
 
I have heard that a parents love for her child is the strongest form of love. If so, then presumably you should do as your child says since you love it? I don’t think you would.
The first three commandments are about our relationship to God. The last 7 are about how we treat others. But right at #4 is an oddly placed one. “Honor thy father and thy mother.”

Why there? Because parents stand in the place of God for a few short years of our lives. They are the face of God to us, co-creating us, bringing us into existence and holding our very existence in their hand. From them we receive all good things. We are responsible for training them and educating them.

They are like the boundary between God and our neighbor. To dishonor them is next to dishonoring God. It is an awesome responsibility and one that you and your wife to be need to be on the same page about. YOU will reflect the love of God Himself as a father to your children. In YOU they will see a glimpse of God’s providence for them. Your authority will be like God’s for a few very important formative years.

In that role, we are not obedient to our children. WE reflect the sacrificial love of Christ for Creation. WE pour ourselves out for them in sacrifice, big and little, as we raise them. In return, they do owe us love and obedience like we owe God the same. The family is a concrete manifestation of the order of Creation itself and God’s relationship with us His children. That is why you as the spiritual head of your household would have a very important role. One you cannot give if you do not possess it. Which is why we’re all yammering at you to get at least a grasp of Church teaching on the family and on God. It’s hard enough to do with the graces and blessings of the sacrament and with faith. Read everything you can. As if your success as a husband and father depended on it.

Please see the movie and read the book I suggested.
 
In that role, we are not obedient to our children. WE reflect the sacrificial love of Christ for Creation. WE pour ourselves out for them in sacrifice, big and little, as we raise them. In return, they do owe us love and obedience like we owe God the same. The family is a concrete manifestation of the order of Creation itself and God’s relationship with us His children. That is why you as the spiritual head of your household would have a very important role. One you cannot give if you do not possess it. Which is why we’re all yammering at you to get at least a grasp of Church teaching on the family and on God. It’s hard enough to do with the graces and blessings of the sacrament and with faith. Read everything you can. As if your success as a husband and father depended on it.

Please see the movie and read the book I suggested.
Right, so you had to qualify the position. I agree, of course, that the type of relation is relevant to obedience. Like a parent-child relation, or the relation between a person and the creator of the universe.

I think I am getting a grasp on church teaching on the family, although some of the theology is quite alien to me. This has been the topic in most of the pre-cana conversations with the priest. But as the priest has recognized, my view of human nature is very different from the CC. However, like many things moral, different systems might very well give similar results. So we have been able to agree or compromise on the relevant practices even though the theory or reasoning is different.

I have been using this evening/night to research Jesus’ sacrifice, and I think I do have some grasp of it (this is not quantum physics), although I am not sure if I think it makes much sense (no pun intended).

I saw The Passion of the Christ at the movies several years ago. I think it was as a part of the “religion and philosophy of life-classes” in high-school. I remember the strange look of the devil and the malformed “people” in his group. Also, I remember the endless beatings. I don’t remember that much else, but it might be that I was uninterested at the time (and I was a child). I will suggest it to my gf on the next movie-night.
 
Persuader, I think now that you know some of the theological underpinnings of the movie you will appreciate it a little better.

May I suggest you read Pope John Paul II’s “Familiaris Consortio”. It’s not that long, and very readable. It’s his encyclical on the family in the modern world. You might find a lot in there that you agree with that makes sense to you. I’m sure you can get a copy in English or your native language.

It discusses the family, the role of the family in society and a just social order that respects the family. The church refers to the family as the DOMESTIC CHURCH. It is the best and first place for the raising and education of children. The foundation of a balanced society. So therefore anything that attacks the institution of the family must be defended against. The Church does everything it can to provide what is needed to support strong family life.

Good for you for doing your homework! 👍

While the theology is alien to you, when you start looking at it you are smart enough to see that it is all very balanced and makes logical sense.
 
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