Religious foundation authority

[STT]

This problem took my attention when I was discussing another topic in another thread. The problem is that most of religious foundation authorities claim that they get their authority from God. How we are informed about God? Through religious foundation. This to me is circular and problematic. What do you think?

 

[Cheiron]

Good question. There’s a very good quote from David Hume. He said that revelation is first person and to everyone else it’s hearsay. Ultimately it comes down to whether you believe what Paul/Mohammed/the priestess of the Oracle of Delphi said.

 

[tm21]

Great question! With competing claims of divine revelation, like anything else, we have to look rationally at the claims and decide which, if any, are authentic. In the case of Jesus Christ there are the following: fulfilled prophesies, miracles performed, future events predicted, radically changed lives of his immediate followers, witness and recording of events by his enemies and non-believers.

 

[STT]

Great question! With competing claims of divine revelation, like anything else, we have to look rationally at the claims and decide which, if any, are authentic.

Yes.

In the case of Jesus Christ there are the following:** fulfilled prophesies**

What do you mean? Prophesy can only be fulfilled if the Truth is reveled and proven.

miracles performed,

Even demons can perform miracles so this doesn’t count.

future events predicted,

You cannot predict future since people can always do otherwise if they are informed.

radically changed lives of his immediate followers, witness and recording of events by his enemies and non-believers.

These really don’t count.

 

[Bonnie]

My husband & I go back & forth on this every once in a while. He’s a great believer in various apparitions & visions, I’m not. Tho I am willing to participate in certain prayers, such as the Divine Mercy, simply because I like it. The last time we discussed this, I told him he believed in St. Faustina, I believed in God. To my amazement, he agreed.

I don’t think it’s possible to know the truth about God, the universe, and everything fully and completely - at least not in this life. We just do the best we can. Tho I’m afraid some people do the worst they can in the name of God.

 

[Inquiringperson]

Great question! With competing claims of divine revelation, like anything else, we have to look rationally at the claims and decide which, if any, are authentic. In the case of Jesus Christ there are the following: fulfilled prophesies, miracles performed, future events predicted, radically changed lives of his immediate followers, witness and recording of events by his enemies and non-believers.

I would also tack on the fact that the apostles chose to be persecuted for Jesus Christ, whom they professed to be risen. The apostles would not have been willing to suffer persecution for a fraud.

 

[Bonnie]

I would also tack on the fact that the apostles chose to be persecuted for Jesus Christ, whom they professed to be risen. The apostles would not have been willing to suffer persecution for a fraud.

There have been many non-Christians & non-Catholics who were persecuted & even martyred for their faith. If the willingness to suffer for ones faith makes it true, then we have a problem.

 

[tm21]

What do you mean? Prophesy can only be fulfilled if the Truth is reveled and proven.
.

Many Old Testament messianic prophesies are fulfilled in Jesus. Jews today (as those in Jesus’ time), who are not Christian, attest to the validity of these prophesies…although they would give varying opinions on why they think Jesus didn’t fulfill them.

Even demons can perform miracles so this doesn’t count.
.

So one needs to look at the nature of the miracles performed. Curing the sick, driving out demons, etc. are not logically performed by demons who are by nature evil. By the way, the very fact that demons exist, is only adequately explained by the judeo christian view of supernatural reality.

You cannot predict future since people can always do otherwise if they are informed.
.

Jesus accurately predicted the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70…hardly an event that could be manipulated.

These really don’t count.

That all but one of the apostles of Jesus experienced horrible deaths at the hands of the Romans rather than deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus is a significant data point to be considered. The one apostle (John) who wasn’t put to death, experienced severe torture and exile.

 

[STT]

Many Old Testament messianic prophesies are fulfilled in Jesus. Jews today (as those in Jesus’ time), who are not Christian, attest to the validity of these prophesies…although they would give varying opinions on why they think Jesus didn’t fulfill them.

You cannot have doubt or deny the Truth once It is revealed and proven to you. How possibly Jesus could be persecuted? Why Jews have different opinions about Jesus? Etc.

So one needs to look at the nature of the miracles performed. Curing the sick, driving out demons, etc. are not logically performed by demons who are by nature evil. By the way, the very fact that demons exist, is only adequately explained by the judeo christian view of supernatural reality.

Miracle is miracle, a supernatural event. It cannot show that you are God while demons can perform it. God by definition is the creator. One need to reveal truth about creation or create in order to show that It is God.

Jesus accurately predicted the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70…hardly an event that could be manipulated.

He didn’t predicted the date. Did He?

That all but one of the apostles of Jesus experienced horrible deaths at the hands of the Romans rather than deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus is a significant data point to be considered. The one apostle (John) who wasn’t put to death, experienced severe torture and exile.

The history if full of people who died horribly for their belief. This cannot be considered as a fact to show that Jesus is God.

 

[Lucretius]

This problem took my attention when I was discussing another topic in another thread. The problem is that most of religious foundation authorities claim that they get their authority from God. How we are informed about God? Through religious foundation. This to me is circular and problematic. What do you think?

Jesus said to them, And what of you? Who do you say that I am?

Then Simon Peter answered, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered him, Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jona; it is not flesh and blood, it is my Father in heaven that has revealed this to thee.

Cheiron is correct: faith is in some sense intrapersonal, a direct gift from God the Father Himself, as Christ Himself explains to St. Peter.

However, faith is also interpersonal; it is not just merely based in the first person, but also in the second person. This is why trust in the Apostles, the Martyrs, and the Saints is necessary for conversion, as God has ordained that revelation is to be mediated by prophets, by persons called by God for this task.

The reason revelation is like this, and not impersonal or “in the third person” like scientific knowledge is, is because revelation just is ultimately about revealing and inviting human persons to partake in the inner life of God, which is the Most Holy Trinity, Himself a Communion of Persons, and so is essentially personal. Revelation couldn’t be “scientific” by definition, basically, nor do we want it to be.

God’s approach to inviting us to be in intimacy with Him and the Angels and Saints, to bringing us to belief in Him and His Son, is outlined in the words of St. Francis de Sales in my signature below:

Our words must come from the heart, not the mouth.
The tongue only speaks to the ears.
The heart speaks to the heart.

Christi pax.

 

[Inquiringperson]

There have been many non-Christians & non-Catholics who were persecuted & even martyred for their faith. If the willingness to suffer for ones faith makes it true, then we have a problem.

I should clarify. We know that Jesus existed. The apostles claimed to know Jesus, claimed that they were his disciples, and claimed that he died and resurrected. If what the apostles claimed was deceitful and fake, then why would the apostles have been willing to die for the sake of the Gospel? True, one could say that perhaps the apostles were trying to seek attention and money for themselves, but if the apostles were gathering a mass movement, then the Roman officials would definitely be very concerned about it. So why would the apostles be willing to create a fake religion, knowing that the Romans could easily target the apostles?

 

[STT]

…faith is in some sense intrapersonal, a direct gift from God the Father Himself, as Christ Himself explains to St. Peter…

So there are people who are gifted who go to Heaven and there are people who are not gifted who go to Hell. This doesn’t make any sense to me. Does it to you?

 

[Lucretius]

So there are people who are gifted who go to Heaven and there are people who are not gifted who go to Hell. This doesn’t make any sense to me. Does it to you?

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

That doesn’t necessarily mean right this very second, but all will be given the appropriate graces in the right amount at the time the Lord sees most fitting. But the key is to seek, to ask, to knock, and as loudly and patiently as possible: just as it’s fitting for you to knock on your friend’s door before entering, even though he invited you over to his house earlier, and you know he will let you in, so too it is fitting for us to ask Him to help our unbelief.

Christi pax.

 

[Bonnie]

I should clarify. We know that Jesus existed. The apostles claimed to know Jesus, claimed that they were his disciples, and claimed that he died and resurrected. If what the apostles claimed was deceitful and fake, then why would the apostles have been willing to die for the sake of the Gospel? True, one could say that perhaps the apostles were trying to seek attention and money for themselves, but if the apostles were gathering a mass movement, then the Roman officials would definitely be very concerned about it. So why would the apostles be willing to create a fake religion, knowing that the Romans could easily target the apostles?

I never said they didn’t believe it. Obviously they believed or they would never have been willing to die. I don’t consider the LDS to be a “true” church, but many people believed - & still believe - what Joseph Smith taught as true. And many were willing to die. Smith himself - even tho I consider him a fraud - died for what he believed in.

The same could be said for a lot of religions.

So dying for one’s religion is not a reason to believe the religion to be true.

 

[STT]

…Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you…

Why we should ask? Aren’t we children of God?

There are people who ask and pray God for a sign to help them to keep their faith in the harsh time. But all they receive is silence. We are not responsible for being created. Is this kind of God? Why we are here? I am not responsible for sin of Adam.

 

[STT]

…he died and resurrected…

Jesus died for his belief. His resurrection doesn’t prove that Jesus is God since God by definition is the creator, created universe from nothing.

 

[Lucretius]

Why we should ask? Aren’t we children of God?

Why do ask to enter our neighbor’s house when you have an paper invitation to the party? Why do you ask grandma to babysit when we know beforehand from her kindness she will do so?

There are people who ask and pray God for a sign to help them to keep their faith in the harsh time. But all they receive is silence.

Will you always receive silence? Or are you only experiencing silence now because the time is not yet right?

Furthermore, silence itself can speak volumes. Any musician can tell you that silence is very important, and has its own meaning. Maybe the silence of God is a mere suspenseful pause in His glorious song we call creation.

We are not responsible for being created. Is this kind of God?

Are you saying that existence is too harsh for you?

Why we are here?

The purpose of STT’s life is to know and love his God and his neighbor (including Lucretius of course ), his friends. STT is to begin drawing closer and closer to them (“neighbor” literally means “one who is near”), becoming immersed within his friends and to have his friends entirely immersed within him, so much so that all of our hearts, minds, and souls touch in a deep intimacy.

I am not responsible for sin of Adam.

Of course not. That’s why it’s called the sin of Adam! (Unless you ARE Adam ).

No amount of logic can replace suffering, but our reflections can help us better understand the meaning of our suffering, and help us integrate it into a good and meaningful and holy life. If you seek concrete examples of those who have endured great suffering yet found profound meaning, peace, and happiness in it, I recommend reading about the Saints and Martyrs, maybe in particular St. Therese the Little Flower.

Our theology are not the rumblings from the ivory tower, but rather reflections on our faithful and holy ancestors’ sufferings, as well as our own.

Christi pax.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

So there are people who are gifted who go to Heaven and there are people who are not gifted who go to Hell. This doesn’t make any sense to me. Does it to you?

Where on earth did you get this non Christian extrapolated interpretation of the op from?

 

[STT]

Where on earth did you get this non Christian extrapolated interpretation of the op from?

Please see post #10: “faith is in some sense intrapersonal, a direct gift from God the Father Himself”

It is not extrapolated interpolation of OP. It is interpenetration related to a verse in Bible made by a Catholic.

 

[fhansen]

This problem took my attention when I was discussing another topic in another thread. The problem is that most of religious foundation authorities claim that they get their authority from God. How we are informed about God? Through religious foundation. This to me is circular and problematic. What do you think?

The same circular reasoning would apply to individuals as well. Ultimately we’re informed by reason and grace. We cannot properly discern supernatural truth without supernatural aid.