religious freedom

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He did. Free will does not exempt us from His authority though.

Who will be judged when they die? Everyone. Those who obey Him and those who don’t.

So do you agree, is everyone subject to the authority of God?
If they subject themselves to His authority, yes. If not, no. And they’ll be judged for it later. Also consider that people will subject themselves to God’s authority according to their beliefs. For example, a Protestant, Muslim, Catholic, or Jew will have a different perspective regarding the rules that govern them, yet they all consider themselves subject to God’s authority. And no, it doesn’t matter what the Catholic Church teaches to the individual who is Jewish, Lutheran, Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, Quaker, etc. And no one knows the state of someone’s soul at the time of their death except for God.
 
If they subject themselves to His authority, yes. If not, no. And they’ll be judged for it later. Also consider that people will subject themselves to God’s authority according to their beliefs. For example, a Protestant, Muslim, Catholic, or Jew will have a different perspective regarding the rules that govern them, yet they all consider themselves subject to God’s authority. And no, it doesn’t matter what the Catholic Church teaches to the individual who is Jewish, Lutheran, Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, Quaker, etc. And no one knows the state of someone’s soul at the time of their death except for God.
If they are going to be judged by God, then they are subject to His authority.

You are correct, that no one knows the state of someone’s soul at the time of their death except for God, not even the person who died.

We do know that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. Which means everyone is heaven is Catholic. Now, this may not be apparent to the living, who for all they know might think a person who died was non-Catholic. However, unless person enters into the Church, they will not be saved.

It is also important to note that we are indeed subject to God’s authority in this life, whether we believe in it or not. By His authority, we live and breathe. By His authority we can think and act. We can only have children, love our neighbors, get sick, or die by God’s authority. Everything that happens because either God willed it or God permitted it. If that doesn’t put EVERYONE under His authority, what does?

Pax and God bless.
 
A traditionalist recently told me that Protestants do not serve the same God we serve. That is patently false.
I think most Protestants would take great exception to your statement that they worship the same God that Catholics worship. The problem with Protestants (and remember, Protestants means they are protesting something), is that they do not accept the teachings of the Catholic Church, first and foremost among them The Eucharist. To reject the Eucharist is to reject life, for Christ said, unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you do not have life within you. They also reject veneration of Mary, communion with the saints, the Magesterium, etc., and in our modern times, such things as contraception and many Protestants even say that abortion and homosexuality are not sinful.

There is an excellent Vortex episode that you might want to check out. As Michael Voris points out, it is the Protestant beliefs that are heretical. You either believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ or you don’t. And if you reject the Catholic Church, which is the mystical body of Christ, you are rejecting Christ. That is not to say there are not millions of well meaning and sincere Protestants who simply don’t know any better, and God will judge them all on an individual basis. But the protestant beliefs are heretical. And to be a Protestant is to be separated from the true Church of God. It’s kind of like being a physical member of a family, but completely separating yourself from the family. You no longer derive any of the benefits that come from being a member of the family because of your separation.

I find it interesting that so many get upset when Protestants are called heretics, but no one ever seems to get upset when Protestants accuse Catholics of being heretics, the great whore of Babylon, etc. Interesting double standard.

youtube.com/watch?v=_Iq7F4IvYdo
 
I think most Protestants would take great exception to your statement that they worship the same God that Catholics worship. The problem with Protestants (and remember, Protestants means they are protesting something), is that they do not accept the teachings of the Catholic Church, first and foremost among them The Eucharist. To reject the Eucharist is to reject life, for Christ said, unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you do not have life within you. They also reject veneration of Mary, communion with the saints, the Magesterium, etc., and in our modern times, such things as contraception and many Protestants even say that abortion and homosexuality are not sinful.

There is an excellent Vortex episode that you might want to check out. As Michael Voris points out, it is the Protestant beliefs that are heretical. You either believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ or you don’t. And if you reject the Catholic Church, which is the mystical body of Christ, you are rejecting Christ. That is not to say there are not millions of well meaning and sincere Protestants who simply don’t know any better, and God will judge them all on an individual basis. But the protestant beliefs are heretical. And to be a Protestant is to be separated from the true Church of God. It’s kind of like being a physical member of a family, but completely separating yourself from the family. You no longer derive any of the benefits that come from being a member of the family because of your separation.

I find it interesting that so many get upset when Protestants are called heretics, but no one ever seems to get upset when Protestants accuse Catholics of being heretics, the great whore of Babylon, etc. Interesting double standard.

youtube.com/watch?v=_Iq7F4IvYdo
Well said and welcome to CAF.
 
Firstly, I must say my post is a general to your posts to Rence.

Rence did not say she picks and chooses what she wants to believe in. She was referring to the Syllabus. How is the Syllabus applicable today please and in non Catholic states? I do not think hat even all Catholic theologians accepted it in its entirety when it was first published.

You mentioned going to Mary. That is not Church doctrine. We honour her she is the most blessed but she is not God.

On other religions. Some Muslims believe that the whole world must become Islamic- at the point of a sword if necessary. For the most, Hindus are fine with others practising their own religions and they do not think that non Hindus are damned. Their are many Protestant denomininations. The mainline Protestants today do not say Catholics cant go to heaven. It is some of the evangelical Christians who think Catholicism is wrong and go to mosty Catholic countries like those in South America and the Philippines to ‘convert’.

The best way to convert people to Catholicism is by example. I believe that is what St Francis of Assisi taught.
My apologies, I meant “going through Mary”.
 
I think most Protestants would take great exception to your statement that they worship the same God that Catholics worship. The problem with Protestants (and remember, Protestants means they are protesting something), is that they do not accept the teachings of the Catholic Church, first and foremost among them The Eucharist. To reject the Eucharist is to reject life, for Christ said, unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you do not have life within you. They also reject veneration of Mary, communion with the saints, the Magesterium, etc., and in our modern times, such things as contraception and many Protestants even say that abortion and homosexuality are not sinful.

There is an excellent Vortex episode that you might want to check out. As Michael Voris points out, it is the Protestant beliefs that are heretical. You either believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ or you don’t. And if you reject the Catholic Church, which is the mystical body of Christ, you are rejecting Christ. That is not to say there are not millions of well meaning and sincere Protestants who simply don’t know any better, and God will judge them all on an individual basis. But the protestant beliefs are heretical. And to be a Protestant is to be separated from the true Church of God. It’s kind of like being a physical member of a family, but completely separating yourself from the family. You no longer derive any of the benefits that come from being a member of the family because of your separation.

I find it interesting that so many get upset when Protestants are called heretics, but no one ever seems to get upset when Protestants accuse Catholics of being heretics, the great whore of Babylon, etc. Interesting double standard.

youtube.com/watch?v=_Iq7F4IvYdo
You’re responding to one thing and I’m discussing something else.

I repeat. To say that Protestants worship a different God is patently false.

The most anti-Catholic person knows that Catholics worship the God in the Bible. They may see Catholics as having issues with Mary, or Confession, or the Eucharist or idolatry etc, but anyone with any sort of sense, knows that Catholics worship the same God and believe in the same Jesus.
 
If they subject themselves to His authority, yes. If not, no. And they’ll be judged for it later. Also consider that people will subject themselves to God’s authority according to their beliefs. For example, a Protestant, Muslim, Catholic, or Jew will have a different perspective regarding the rules that govern them, yet they all consider themselves subject to God’s authority. And no, it doesn’t matter what the Catholic Church teaches to the individual who is Jewish, Lutheran, Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, Quaker, etc. And no one knows the state of someone’s soul at the time of their death except for God.
Well said.👍
 
I think most Protestants would take great exception to your statement that they worship the same God that Catholics worship. The problem with Protestants (and remember, Protestants means they are protesting something), is that they do not accept the teachings of the Catholic Church, first and foremost among them The Eucharist. To reject the Eucharist is to reject life, for Christ said, unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you do not have life within you. They also reject veneration of Mary, communion with the saints, the Magesterium, etc., and in our modern times, such things as contraception and many Protestants even say that abortion and homosexuality are not sinful.

There is an excellent Vortex episode that you might want to check out. As Michael Voris points out, it is the Protestant beliefs that are heretical. You either believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ or you don’t. And if you reject the Catholic Church, which is the mystical body of Christ, you are rejecting Christ. That is not to say there are not millions of well meaning and sincere Protestants who simply don’t know any better, and God will judge them all on an individual basis. But the protestant beliefs are heretical. And to be a Protestant is to be separated from the true Church of God. It’s kind of like being a physical member of a family, but completely separating yourself from the family. You no longer derive any of the benefits that come from being a member of the family because of your separation.

I find it interesting that so many get upset when Protestants are called heretics, but no one ever seems to get upset when Protestants accuse Catholics of being heretics, the great whore of Babylon, etc. Interesting double standard.

youtube.com/watch?v=_Iq7F4IvYdo
Protestants do worship the same God.
 
You’re responding to one thing and I’m discussing something else.

I repeat. To say that Protestants worship a different God is patently false.

The most anti-Catholic person knows that Catholics worship the God in the Bible. They may see Catholics as having issues with Mary, or Confession, or the Eucharist or idolatry etc, but anyone with any sort of sense, knows that Catholics worship the same God and believe in the same Jesus.
Absolutely!
 
You’re responding to one thing and I’m discussing something else.

I repeat. To say that Protestants worship a different God is patently false.

The most anti-Catholic person knows that Catholics worship the God in the Bible. They may see Catholics as having issues with Mary, or Confession, or the Eucharist or idolatry etc, but anyone with any sort of sense, knows that Catholics worship the same God and believe in the same Jesus.
Absolutely!
 
If they are going to be judged by God, then they are subject to His authority.
You and I know this. But someone who does not acknowledge it, does not subject themselves to His authority, and yes, that matters what they believe – because it will drive their actions and words throughout their journey through life. They do have the right not to subject themselves to His authority, given to them by Him by the gift of free will, though they will face the consequences later if that refusal to subject themselves leads them to evil.
You are correct, that no one knows the state of someone’s soul at the time of their death except for God, not even the person who died.
Which makes it ridiculous, as mere humans, to speculate who will be saved and who will not be saved.
We do know that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. Which means everyone is heaven is Catholic.

Now, this may not be apparent to the living, who for all they know might think a person who died was non-Catholic. However, unless person enters into the Church, they will not be saved.
No, we don’t know that, not if we follow the teachings of the Church itself. This is only your teaching, not the Church’s and it might be considered ridiculous to some people, especially given that it is against Church teaching. The Catechism says this:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
Those who follow another religion are among those who do not know the Church through no fault of their own. So, no, not everyone in heaven is Catholic. I’m very very sure of that.
It is also important to note that we are indeed subject to God’s authority in this life, whether we believe in it or not.
Again, it does matter whether a person believes it or not because it drives their actions and inactions throughout life. You and I and other believers of God (whether they are Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Lutheran, Anglican, Quaker, Baptist, Church of Christ, etc) know that we are subect to God and it reflects in our daily lives in accordance to the teachings we have learned. Likewise, those who do not know God do not subject themselves to His Authority, and it reflects in their daily lives and drives their decisions, so yes, it does matter.
By His authority, we live and breathe. By His authority we can think and act. We can only have children, love our neighbors, get sick, or die by God’s authority. Everything that happens because either God willed it or God permitted it. If that doesn’t put EVERYONE under His authority, what does?
That’s not true in entirely either, because if that were true it would open up a whole other can of worms for those who get pregnant via IVF or artificial insemination. Likewise, some might say that it was the Will of God that a child died via abortion. Or that it was the Will of God that a chaste wife was infected with HIV by her cheating husband. The fact is God permitted it because he gave us free will, and because of original sin we can choose to reject Him and His Authority over us. God is not the grand puppet master pulling the strings. He will intervene if you ask, and He answers every single prayer. But, He is not micromanaging every single event on earth. Again, without the acknowledgement that we answer to a higher power, nothing matters for people until the very end when we meet our Creator, and even then, only He, and He alone, knows our fate until then, they do go through life making their decisions without regard to any Authority other than their own. No one is subject to an authority, unless they subject themselves to it. And it is strictly voluntarily. God will not force anyone.

So yes, a person can refuse to be subject to the Authority of God, it’s their choice, given to them by God Himself by the gift of free will, and it matters because it will mold and shape them throughout their lives and reflect in their living example. So if they don’t believe that God (or the Church) has Authority over them, then they won’t subject themselves to this Authority, and that matters. Of course it matters. The fact that they will be judged for their living example by God upon their death means nothing until that moment because they are living now.
 
I think most Protestants would take great exception to your statement that they worship the same God that Catholics worship. The problem with Protestants (and remember, Protestants means they are protesting something), is that they do not accept the teachings of the Catholic Church, first and foremost among them The Eucharist. To reject the Eucharist is to reject life, for Christ said, unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you do not have life within you. They also reject veneration of Mary, communion with the saints, the Magesterium, etc., and in our modern times, such things as contraception and many Protestants even say that abortion and homosexuality are not sinful.

There is an excellent Vortex episode that you might want to check out. As Michael Voris points out, it is the Protestant beliefs that are heretical. You either believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ or you don’t. And if you reject the Catholic Church, which is the mystical body of Christ, you are rejecting Christ. That is not to say there are not millions of well meaning and sincere Protestants who simply don’t know any better, and God will judge them all on an individual basis. But the protestant beliefs are heretical. And to be a Protestant is to be separated from the true Church of God. It’s kind of like being a physical member of a family, but completely separating yourself from the family. You no longer derive any of the benefits that come from being a member of the family because of your separation.

I find it interesting that so many get upset when Protestants are called heretics, but no one ever seems to get upset when Protestants accuse Catholics of being heretics, the great whore of Babylon, etc. Interesting double standard.

youtube.com/watch?v=_Iq7F4IvYdo
Pope John Paul II and today Pope Benedict XVI has addressedt this question of heresy and Protestantism. And while the full answer is still unavailable, the one thing that both popes make clear is the modern day Protesantism is not heresy. Here is what Pope Benedict has to say about the matter.

The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, pp. 87-88: “The difficulty in the way of giving an answer is a profound one. Ultimately it is due to the fact that there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East). It is obvious that the old category of ‘heresy’ is no longer of any value. Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy’s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian. In the course of a now centuries-old history, Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy. Perhaps we may here invert a saying of St. Augustine’s: that an old schism becomes a heresy. The very passage of time alters the character of a division, so that an old division is something essentially different from a new one. Something that was once rightly condemned as heresy cannot later simply become true, but it can gradually develop its own positive ecclesial nature, with which the individual is presented as his church and in which he lives as a believer, not as a heretic. This organization of one group, however, ultimately has an effect on the whole. The conclusion is inescapable, then: Protestantism today is something different from heresy in the traditional sense, a phenomenon whose true theological place has not yet been determined.”

Remember, Pope John Paul was trained in the Carmelie School of theology and Pope Benedict is trained in the Augustinian and Franciscan schools of theology. The three schools define heresy very differently from what we’re used to, because they are very influenced by theology of history. Even though they are different schools, they agree with each other.

While there is a definite separation and there is a definite transmission of distorted beliefs from one generation to another and other beliefs have been set aside, the Protestant does not believe them as a heretic. He believes them as a person of faith. This is his or her faith.

To understand the Holy Father, I had to think back to the American Revolution. To the English of the 18th century, the colonists were terrorists and rebels. To the Americans, they were patriots. Today, the English no longer look at Americans as terrorists or rebels and Americans still feel very uncomfortable with the English system of government. Over 200 years, the younger generations are not in the same place as the original generations involved in the conflict. We have to deal with each other, not as good vs bad, but as two distinct communities that came from one common stock and figure out how to get back to being one. We should be able to know truth from error, and right from wrong without applying labels that no longer work.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Pope John Paul II and today Pope Benedict XVI has addressedt this question of heresy and Protestantism. And while the full answer is still unavailable, the one thing that both popes make clear is the modern day Protesantism is not heresy. Here is what Pope Benedict has to say about the matter.

The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, pp. 87-88: “The difficulty in the way of giving an answer is a profound one. Ultimately it is due to the fact that there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East). It is obvious that the old category of ‘heresy’ is no longer of any value. Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy’s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian. In the course of a now centuries-old history, Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy. Perhaps we may here invert a saying of St. Augustine’s: that an old schism becomes a heresy. *** The very passage of time alters the character of a division, so that an old division is something essentially different from a new one. Something that was once rightly condemned as heresy cannot later simply become true, but it can gradually develop its own positive ecclesial nature, with which the individual is presented as his church and in which he lives as a believer, not as a heretic.*** This organization of one group, however, ultimately has an effect on the whole. The conclusion is inescapable, then: Protestantism today is something different from heresy in the traditional sense, a phenomenon whose true theological place has not yet been determined.”

Remember, Pope John Paul was trained in the Carmelie School of theology and Pope Benedict is trained in the Augustinian and Franciscan schools of theology. The three schools define heresy very differently from what we’re used to, because they are very influenced by theology of history. Even though they are different schools, they agree with each other.

While there is a definite separation and there is a definite transmission of distorted beliefs from one generation to another and other beliefs have been set aside, the Protestant does not believe them as a heretic. He believes them as a person of faith. This is his or her faith.

To understand the Holy Father, I had to think back to the American Revolution. To the English of the 18th century, the colonists were terrorists and rebels. To the Americans, they were patriots. Today, the English no longer look at Americans as terrorists or rebels and Americans still feel very uncomfortable with the English system of government. Over 200 years, the younger generations are not in the same place as the original generations involved in the conflict. We have to deal with each other, not as good vs bad, but as two distinct communities that came from one common stock and figure out how to get back to being one. We should be able to know truth from error, and right from wrong without applying labels that no longer work.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I’d like to point out that Protestant positions are still heresy. There is no debate about that. What was once heresy does not become truths as the quote acknowledges.

So logically speaking, Protestants are in error. Not heretics but certainly in error. It seems that the Catholic church lost its backbone in the name of ecumenism. In any case, the teachings of the church clearly point out Protestantism for what it is.

Everyone in the church hierarchy including Br. JR are welcome to give their personal opinions about it but the fact that Protestantism is a heretical teaching has already been determined at the Council of Trent. Now we must do all we can to bring our separated brethren (Protestants) away from their errors and back in to the Church. They are not heretics but they are most certainly in ERROR. Like any good friend, we must point out the errors with patience and work to bring them out of it. Not sugar coat it for them to maintain our friendship. That really wouldn’t be a good friendship either.
 
Protestants do worship the same God.
Yes, Protestants do worship the Triune God, and they do believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour. I don’t think I denied that. My comment is that I don’t think Protestants believe Catholics worship the same God as they do. We all know that Protestants have historically called the Catholic Church the Great Whore of Babylon. Protestants believe Catholics engage in idolatry because we have statues, they believe we engage in Mary worship, they believe we use vain repetitions in our prayer, and they completely and totally reject the Eucharist. They, of course, also reject the Vicar of Christ, the Pope. The example I used in my first post was members of a family who have chosen to separate themselves from the family. They still have the same family name - in this case, Christian - but they have lost all the benefits that come from being part of the family.

A heretic is one who rejects the teachings of the Church. By so completely rejecting the beliefs and teachings of the Catholic Church, the Protestant belief is heresy. That is not to say each individual Protestant is a heretic.
 
I’d like to point out that Protestant positions are still heresy. There is no debate about that. What was once heresy does not become truths as the quote acknowledges.
Did you observe what I said?
While there is a definite separation and** there is a definite transmission of distorted beliefs from one generation to another **and other beliefs have been set aside, the Protestant does not believe them as a heretic.
I’m not sure why you’re saying this.
It seems that the Catholic church lost its backbone in the name of ecumenism. In any case, the teachings of the church clearly point out Protestantism for what it is.
Not one has said that was was wrong is now right and no one is bending truth here.
Everyone in the church hierarchy including Br. JR are welcome to give their personal opinions about it but the fact that Protestantism is a heretical teaching has already been determined at the Council of Trent.
Again, not sure why you’re saying this, since no one has said anything to the contrary. What the popes have said is the following. Observe that Pope Benedict uses the definition of Trent and then poceeds to say that the situation to which Trent applied the term is not the same today. The operative word here is “today”. Trent dealth with Protestantism as it knew it. The Protestantism that Trent knew is not the same as that which exists today. That’s what the pope is saying. That’s not a personal opinion, that’s a scholarly analysis.
Ultimately it is due to the fact that there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East). It is obvious that the old category of ‘heresy’ is no longer of any value. Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy’s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian.
He repeats the definition of heresy of Trent and then states that it does not adequately describe the Protestant Christian of today, because this person does not live as a heretic. He’s saying that we need a different approach to the question of Protestantism.

You’re on different pages. You’re focussing on the errors in Protestantism. The popes and the Church are focussing on the labels that we use and pointing out that to the intelligent theologian and historian, the labels that were appropriate at the time of Trent are not appropriate today.

The best reason is that the Protestants of which Trent spoke were Catholics who went their own way. The Protestants of which the Church speaks and for which the Church has concern are not Catholics and have never been Catholics. The definition of heretic developed by Trent still applies to any Catholic who falls into the same pernicious embrace of error contrary to what the Church teaches.
Now we must do all we can to bring our separated brethren (Protestants) away from their errors and back in to the Church. They are not heretics but they are most certainly in ERROR. Like any good friend, we must point out the errors with patience and work to bring them out of it. Not sugar coat it for them to maintain our friendship. That really wouldn’t be a good friendship either.
Here again, you may have missed what I said before.
We have to deal with each other, not as good vs bad, but as two distinct communities that came from one common stock and figure out how to get back to being one. We should be able to know truth from error, and right from wrong without applying labels that no longer work.
Reunification is far more important than the labels.

I also pointed out something that you may have missed, but which strongly affects the way that our two popes speak about Protestantism.
Remember, Pope John Paul was trained in the Carmelie School of theology and Pope Benedict is trained in the Augustinian and Franciscan schools of theology. The three schools define heresy very differently from what we’re used to, because they are very influenced by theology of history.
We cannot change this. Carmel, Bonaventure and Augustine are what they are and their approach to this problem is very different from that of Dominic and Ignatius, which is what most Catholics know, because until Pope Paul VI, every pope was formed as a Thomist. Pope Paul VI is the first non Thomist pope in over 150 years. Between Pope Pius V and Pope Paul VI there was only one non Thomist pope, he was Franciscan formed. Now, you have Pope Paul VI who was formed as a lawyer, Bl. John Paul II formed as a Carmelite theologian and philosopher, Pope Benedict formed as a Franciscan and Augustinian theologian.

In trying to answer the question, “What is Protestantism today?” They’re going to use different language that is less familiar to the average Catholic, but not contrary to what we know. The burden is on us to pay close attention to and learn that language, because we cannot change their language or what they have said. In order to move forward, we have to understand it rather than resist it. Pick up the Carmelite, Augustinian and Franciscan writiings. Read them carefully and try to understand them. You will find nothing contrary to Trent.

However, you will find a strong sense of fraternal love and a desire to build unity without argumentation and without the labels. It’s a matter of understanding them and seeing how to best help them come home. We don’t have to declare supremacy over the non-Catholic world to defend Catholicism.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Vatican II can be interpreted in accord with previous papal decrees, but not the Catechism. I’m going to start a new thread on this single point
 
“Remember, Pope John Paul was trained in the Carmelie School of theology and Pope Benedict is trained in the Augustinian and Franciscan schools of theology. The three schools define heresy very differently from what we’re used to, because they are very influenced by theology of history.”

What are each ones definition of heresy?
 
We cannot change this. Carmel, Bonaventure and Augustine are what they are and their approach to this problem is very different from that of Dominic and Ignatius, which is what most Catholics know, because until Pope Paul VI, every pope was formed as a Thomist. Pope Paul VI is the first non Thomist pope in over 150 years. Between Pope Pius V and Pope Paul VI there was only one non Thomist pope, he was Franciscan formed. Now, you have Pope Paul VI who was formed as a lawyer, Bl. John Paul II formed as a Carmelite theologian and philosopher, Pope Benedict formed as a Franciscan and Augustinian theologian.

In trying to answer the question, “What is Protestantism today?” **They’re going to use different language that is less familiar to the average Catholic, but not contrary to what we know. ** The burden is on us to pay close attention to and learn that language, because we cannot change their language or what they have said. In order to move forward, we have to understand it rather than resist it. Pick up the Carmelite, Augustinian and Franciscan writiings. Read them carefully and try to understand them. You will find nothing contrary to Trent.

However, you will find a strong sense of fraternal love and a desire to build unity without argumentation and without the labels. It’s a matter of understanding them and seeing how to best help them come home. We don’t have to declare supremacy over the non-Catholic world to defend Catholicism.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Well, if they are simply using a different language, that is good. Then I will just follow and state what I believe in the “different language” used by Pope’s prior and our actions in the end should still both be the same.

In my approach, I will go and tell Protestant friends when the discussions arises that their positions are in error. Show them the error, and ask them to consider converting to the Catholic faith. I would be as kind and compassionate as one would be when explaining right from wrong to their very own teenage son who wants to practice a homosexual life style.

If it is just a language barrier between me and the current Catholic church, I am sure there is nothing to worry since we will both be “saying differently” but doing the same things. My actions would be 100% Catholic as the Pope’s ideas in this unfamiliar language 🙂
 
Cardinal Ratzinger said protestants are not heretics (even materially). I don’t understand how that’s not heresy
 
Pope John Paul II and today Pope Benedict XVI has addressedt this question of heresy and Protestantism. And while the full answer is still unavailable, the one thing that both popes make clear is the modern day Protesantism is not heresy. Here is what Pope Benedict has to say about the matter.

The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, pp. 87-88: “The difficulty in the way of giving an answer is a profound one. Ultimately it is due to the fact that there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East). It is obvious that the old category of ‘heresy’ is no longer of any value. Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy’s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian. In the course of a now centuries-old history, Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy. Perhaps we may here invert a saying of St. Augustine’s: that an old schism becomes a heresy. The very passage of time alters the character of a division, so that an old division is something essentially different from a new one. Something that was once rightly condemned as heresy cannot later simply become true, but it can gradually develop its own positive ecclesial nature, with which the individual is presented as his church and in which he lives as a believer, not as a heretic. This organization of one group, however, ultimately has an effect on the whole. The conclusion is inescapable, then: Protestantism today is something different from heresy in the traditional sense, a phenomenon whose true theological place has not yet been determined.”

Remember, Pope John Paul was trained in the Carmelie School of theology and Pope Benedict is trained in the Augustinian and Franciscan schools of theology. The three schools define heresy very differently from what we’re used to, because they are very influenced by theology of history. Even though they are different schools, they agree with each other.

While there is a definite separation and there is a definite transmission of distorted beliefs from one generation to another and other beliefs have been set aside, the Protestant does not believe them as a heretic. He believes them as a person of faith. This is his or her faith.

To understand the Holy Father, I had to think back to the American Revolution. To the English of the 18th century, the colonists were terrorists and rebels. To the Americans, they were patriots. Today, the English no longer look at Americans as terrorists or rebels and Americans still feel very uncomfortable with the English system of government. Over 200 years, the younger generations are not in the same place as the original generations involved in the conflict. We have to deal with each other, not as good vs bad, but as two distinct communities that came from one common stock and figure out how to get back to being one. We should be able to know truth from error, and right from wrong without applying labels that no longer work.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Once again, well said.
 
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