Religious intolerance in the world

[BobCatholic]

Why is it that people have to kill each other in the name of religion?

Because evil people hide behind religion so they can do their evil. Evil people hide behind anything they can do so they can do more evil. It is not the religion or other good things they hide behind that is the problem, it is the evil that is the problem.

 

[Valke2]

Because evil people hide behind religion so they can do their evil. Evil people hide behind anything they can do so they can do more evil. It is not the religion or other good things they hide behind that is the problem, it is the evil that is the problem.

I disagree. Often it is the religous belief that drives the evil act. I don’t think Bin Laden is hiding behind his religion. I think that his religion provides a set of beliefs that allow him to commit murder over.

People do not strap bombs onto themselves because they want to commit evil., They do so because they believe they will go to paradise for fullfilling God’s will,

 

[Marilena]

I disagree. Often it is the religous belief that drives the evil act. I don’t think Bin Laden is hiding behind his religion. I think that his religion provides a set of beliefs that allow him to commit murder over.

People do not strap bombs onto themselves because they want to commit evil., They do so because they believe they will go to paradise for fullfilling God’s will,

good observation

 

[mommyof4]

Some famous writer once said that we have enough religion to hate one another, but not enough to love one another. So true.

 

[BobCatholic]

I disagree. Often it is the religous belief that drives the evil act. I don’t think Bin Laden is hiding behind his religion. I think that his religion provides a set of beliefs that allow him to commit murder over.

Bin Laden is an evil man. He’d do the same thing if he were a Buddhist, or a Christian, or a leftist.

Think of it this way. Where does it say in the Koran that one must be a suicide bomber?

It doesn’t. The suicide bombers came from listening to HIM and not the Koran.

So it is not the religious beliefs, it is Bin Laden.

 

[Montalban]

I was thinking about Valke 2’s post, will we survive religion? something like that i think it is called. Why is it that people have to kill each other in the name of religion? Why can’t people put down their arms and predjudices no matter what people believe and just try to get along? .

Should we just sit back and tolerate all beliefs, even intolerant ones?

Where the British in India right to suppress the “Thugee”(1) or make illegal Suttee(2)

(1) Thugee were followers of Kali who believed in ritual strangulation
(2) Suttee was the act of throwing the widow onto the funeral pyre of her late husband.

What about the “Children of God” who believe in ‘sanctified’ sex with children. All religious beliefs that believe in female genital mutilation.

What business have we got then in telling them what to do (according to you)?

 

[Valke2]

THose are examples which do not rely on conflicting unsupported religious doctrine in order to be opposed. Those practicing those rites were willing to kill the child, the widow, etc. because of unsupportable religous teachings. Those opposing such behavior can reasonably do so based on a moral stance regarding the value of human life.

Similarly, killing jews, confining them to ghettos, or restricting the kind of work they could do or property they could own, because of a unsupportable religious proposition that they killed God, would be clearly wrong. Judaism was hardly tolerated by Christians. And their reasons for intolerance were largely founded on beliefs that they knew what God wanted…

 

[Marilena]

Should we just sit back and tolerate all beliefs, even intolerant ones?

Where the British in India right to suppress the “Thugee”(1) or make illegal Suttee(2)

(1) Thugee were followers of Kali who believed in ritual strangulation
(2) Suttee was the act of throwing the widow onto the funeral pyre of her late husband.

What about the “Children of God” who believe in ‘sanctified’ sex with children. All religious beliefs that believe in female genital mutilation.

What business have we got then in telling them what to do (according to you)?

i never said that the violent religions were acceptable did i? do not presume to think that that was what i said. iam mostly focusing onsome of the islamic’s terrible beliefs about jews, and the intolernace they have for the jews, as well as iran’s president’s attitude towards the jews which is totally unacceptable. not just that, but the jw’s and scientologists who are dangerous cults and controlling their members.

i think that if the religions that claim they are peaceful ought to show peace and love to their neighbor. i never stated that violent beliefs are acceptable because they are not. so again, do not presume to state that i said that they are acceptable in any way or shape or form, because they are not. beliefs like that are no where near religious. they need to be brought down.

what made me cranky is that iam bombarded on tv by the war in iraq, to me, it is not a just war. not by any means. and telling the world that the jews do not have a right to exist in isreal, or that they ought to be moved out of the land God gave them, and live in Europe or that the jews should be annhilated or wiped off the face of the map is totally unacceptable behavior.

fundamentalist islamics need to sit down and stop and think and learn peace. not every muslim is violent or wants to wipe the jews off the face of the planet. we all have a right to exist and live in peace on God’s earth. and the sooner anyone no matter what they believe starts to realize that man has a right to exist in peace and to be loved by their fellow man the sooner peace will exist.

 

[Valke2]

Bin Laden is an evil man. He’d do the same thing if he were a Buddhist, or a Christian, or a leftist.

Think of it this way. Where does it say in the Koran that one must be a suicide bomber?

It doesn’t. The suicide bombers came from listening to HIM and not the Koran.

So it is not the religious beliefs, it is Bin Laden.

There have been plenty of Koran citations that support killing in the defense of God. Bin Laden does what he does because infidels remain in the holy land of Saudia Arabia. He does it out of religious conviction. He’s not a poor schlub jealous of the wealth of the west. He sees the West as evil. and for him, and millions of others, that makes the most barbarous acts acceptable.

When mulsims dance in the streets and rejoice over such “victories” as 9/11, they are not embracing evil. They see our existence as a threat to themselves and their children. If not in this world then in the next. When that is your worldview then there’s nothing to stop you from killing those you deem as a threat.

 

[Mirdath]

I wasn’t sure what to expect when I clicked on this thread… but wow.

I think I agree in principle with most of you.

It feels strange

 

[Oneiron]

Bin Laden is an evil man. He’d do the same thing if he were a Buddhist, or a Christian, or a leftist.

Think of it this way. Where does it say in the Koran that one must be a suicide bomber?

It doesn’t. The suicide bombers came from listening to HIM and not the Koran.

So it is not the religious beliefs, it is Bin Laden.

Pardon me to disagree, but that is the most ignorant stament I have ever heard. Do you understand the concept of Buddhism? And how does being a “leftist” fit in with a religious debate? And the fact that somewhere in a holy book and the teachings of Islam that if you die in Jihad you go to the highest level of heaven has absolutely nothing at all to do with why those men flew a plane into a building as a “get out of our countries and leave us alone” message?
Bin Laden is Muslim. His followers are Muslim. Inmuch the same way that the inquisitioners were Christian.

 

[Montalban]

i never said that the violent religions were acceptable did i?

You made no distinction. What is ‘violent’, anyway. If I am Jewish and have my son circumscised some may think that is an act of ‘violence’ against a child.

do not presume to think that that was what i said. iam mostly focusing onsome of the islamic’s terrible beliefs about jews, and the intolernace they have for the jews, as well as iran’s president’s attitude towards the jews which is totally unacceptable. not just that, but the jw’s and scientologists who are dangerous cults and controlling their members.

I don’t agree with Islam. Moslems claim their faith is one of peace.

i think that if the religions that claim they are peaceful ought to show peace and love to their neighbor. i never stated that violent beliefs are acceptable because they are not. so again, do not presume to state that i said that they are acceptable in any way or shape or form, because they are not. beliefs like that are no where near religious. they need to be brought down.

How do you reconcile attacks on a violent faith that claims to be peaceful, and following a peaceful faith yourself?

 

[Marilena]

“You made no distinction. What is ‘violent’, anyway. If I am Jewish and have my son circumscised some may think that is an act of ‘violence’ against a child.”

umm let’s see, killing others, maiming others, deliberately harming others, murder, exct exct exct. In regards to circumcision, did God not in the old testament state that males had tobe circumcised? Or do you consider God to be wrong back then? males do not need to be circumcised now adays do they? so what are you saying, that God was guilty of violence then against children? not.excuse me for not explaining myself or not making a disctinction to your liking.

“I don’t agree with Islam. Moslems claim their faith is one of peace.”

you don’t have to agree with islam. i know muslims where i live and they are not violent and do not subscribe to violence
in their beliefs or daily life. you don’t have to agree with islam.

“How do you reconcile attacks on a violent faith that claims to be peaceful, and following a peaceful faith yourself?”

i did NOT try to reconcile attacks on a violent faith did i? where did i state that? please point that out to me. you cannot classify all muslims as violent just because they believe in islam. that is not fair. i know muslims where we live and they are very friendly and very open. as a matter of fact, they have evne saved lives here. so do not state that they cannot be peaceful. that is utter hogwash. just because iam against the war in iraq does not mean that i support violent acts of murder by fundamentalist beliefs.

its like your blaiming the belief for the attacks and not the individual persons responsible. why don’t you go after the watchtower society for all the deaths they are responsible for when brainwashing their members to refuse blood, an dif they don’t then they will be damned for all aternity? why not go after sects like that?

what about the millionsof jews who have died in the holocaust?
and continue to die today? what about the millions of displaced iraqi’s? what about the thousands upon thousands of dead iraqi men women and children who are innocent? and did not deserve to die? what about the dead US soldiers in iraq? why is it that 70% of americans believe the war in iraq is unjust?

why is it that there are families grieving that do not have to grieve? and are only grieving their loss because that war should not have happened in the first place? but it did and there is nothing that can be done about it now.

what is done is done and cannot be undone. Christ is the judge for all of us, and He will judge the just and the unjust.
the evil go to hell the just go to heaven and some to purgatory.

no one escapes the judgement no one. not even you. so just because i did not clearly define what you wanted me to, try to not be so picky at me. iam not perfect my friiend, not by a long shot. i do not stick up for those in a religious belief no matter WHAT it is that create acts of violence towards man.

there is no need for war in the name of religion, and no reason to not to try to be peacable amongst us all.

 

[Montalban]

“You made no distinction. What is ‘violent’, anyway. If I am Jewish and have my son circumscised some may think that is an act of ‘violence’ against a child.”

umm let’s see, killing others, maiming others, deliberately harming others, murder, exct exct exct. In regards to circumcision, did God not in the old testament state that males had tobe circumcised? Or do you consider God to be wrong back then? males do not need to be circumcised now adays do they? so what are you saying, that God was guilty of violence then against children? not.

I don’t consider God to be wrong at all. I’d like to know if you consider it to be violent. This is after-all your thread, you making the claims about violence.

excuse me for not explaining myself or not making a disctinction to your liking.

You made NO distinction at first. When you make a broad and sweeping statement and someone questions you on it, then indignation is the last card you should be playing.

you don’t have to agree with islam. i know muslims where i live and they are not violent and do not subscribe to violence
in their beliefs or daily life. you don’t have to agree with islam.

Not all Nazis killed Jews. But we can examine their beliefs.

i did NOT try to reconcile attacks on a violent faith did i?

Thus I’m asking you how do you do it?

where did i state that? please point that out to me.

You didn’t. Hence I’m asking you the question.
How do you, as a person following a peaceful faith come to terms with a faith that is not peaceful. Can you do so, peacefully.

you cannot classify all muslims as violent just because they believe in islam. that is not fair. i know muslims where we live and they are very friendly and very open. as a matter of fact, they have evne saved lives here. so do not state that they cannot be peaceful. that is utter hogwash. just because iam against the war in iraq does not mean that i support violent acts of murder by fundamentalist beliefs.

The core beliefs of Islam are violence. Islam means ‘submission’. One submits to the will of their god al-lah. One does so or one dies.

its like your blaiming the belief for the attacks and not the individual persons responsible. why don’t you go after the watchtower society for all the deaths they are responsible for when brainwashing their members to refuse blood, an dif they don’t then they will be damned for all aternity? why not go after sects like that?

One argument at a time. Islam can be examined as a set of beliefs. If those beliefs promote violence then one can point those out.

Let’s give an example of your ‘logic’.
Nazism promoted the killing of Jews. One famous Nazi party member Oscar Schindler actually saved 900+ Jews. Because of this one person we can’t examine what Nazism was about, because he actually wasn’t violent towards the Jews.

 

[Marilena]

“I don’t consider God to be wrong at all. I’d like to know if you consider it to be violent. This is after-all your thread, you making the claims about violence.”

If God states that circumsision must be done then it is not violent. Claims? they are more than claims friend. there are proven facts friend. umm lets see… sticks of dynamite strapped to a terrorist and blows up a car and dozens get killed. you DON’T think THAT is violent???

“You made NO distinction at first. When you make a broad and sweeping statement and someone questions you on it, then indignation is the last card you should be playing.”

So sue me!

“Not all Nazis killed Jews. But we can examine their beliefs.”

yes we can, and we have examined their beliefs and their core party values, and it wasn’t just the jews they killed either. it was Catholic’s, Portestants, jw’s, exct exct exct. they were one of the most hideous violent parties with bizzare beliefs in the history of man.

“Thus I’m asking you how do you do it?”

why shouldn’t i be indignant at all the rotteness on this planet?

“You didn’t. Hence I’m asking you the question.
How do you, as a person following a peaceful faith come to terms with a faith that is not peaceful. Can you do so, peacefully.”

yes. i can. i pray for those who act badly and hope that they can convert. and repent of their sins.

“The core beliefs of Islam are violence. Islam means ‘submission’. One submits to the will of their god al-lah. One does so or one dies.”

oh is that right eh? why don’t i ask a muslim cleric i know about that.

“One argument at a time. Islam can be examined as a set of beliefs. If those beliefs promote violence then one can point those out.”

where does it state in the koran that their CORE beliefs are set on violence???

"Let’s give an example of your ‘logic’.

“Nazism promoted the killing of Jews. One famous Nazi party member Oscar Schindler actually saved 900+ Jews. Because of this one person we can’t examine what Nazism was about, because he actually wasn’t violent towards the Jews”

if you don’t like my post or “logic” as you putit why are you coming on here making me cranky? to cut me down. if you don’t like my post please don’t answer my posts. please don’t reply to my posts. ignore me. guess who else saved alot of jews? POPE PIUS XII and SAINT MAXIMILLIAN KOLBE. 2 non violent people. so there are more than 1 person who helped save the jews. not just schindler friend. the Nazis were despicable and evil. they tried to slaughter an entire race of people and they had no right to do so.

the mods will close this post and rightfully so.

 

[Marilena]

this post needs to be shut down. its getting argumentative.
if a mod sees this, please shut it down. thank you kindly.

 

[Mirdath]

this post needs to be shut down. its getting argumentative.
if a mod sees this, please shut it down. thank you kindly.

All I can say is, it’s a pity…

 

[Marilena]

yeah it is a pity. seems such an issue cannot be discussed charitably at all. too bad.

 

[Montalban]

“I don’t consider God to be wrong at all. I’d like to know if you consider it to be violent. This is after-all your thread, you making the claims about violence.”

If God states that circumsision must be done then it is not violent.

So when is God claiming this? (I ask because many religions claim that they’ve got God speaking)

Claims? they are more than claims friend. there are proven facts friend. umm lets see… sticks of dynamite strapped to a terrorist and blows up a car and dozens get killed. you DON’T think THAT is violent???

I do think it’s violent. However they claim its from their god, so how do you go about telling people such as that not to be violent?

“You made NO distinction at first. When you make a broad and sweeping statement and someone questions you on it, then indignation is the last card you should be playing.”

So sue me!
You seem to me overly aggressive when one asks you some questions, trying to get more information about what you mean.

Marilena:
“Not all Nazis killed Jews. But we can examine their beliefs.”

yes we can, and we have examined their beliefs and their core party values, and it wasn’t just the jews they killed either. it was Catholic’s, Portestants, jw’s, exct exct exct. they were one of the most hideous violent parties with bizzare beliefs in the history of man.
So how do you confront such beliefs without resorting to violence?

Montalban:

“Thus I’m asking you how do you do it?”

why shouldn’t i be indignant at all the rotteness on this planet?

Your indignation is directed to me for asking you a few questions

Montalban:

“You didn’t. Hence I’m asking you the question.
How do you, as a person following a peaceful faith come to terms with a faith that is not peaceful. Can you do so, peacefully.”

yes. i can. i pray for those who act badly and hope that they can convert. and repent of their sins.

Ah, at last. An answer. Ta.
"Montalban:

“The core beliefs of Islam are violence. Islam means ‘submission’. One submits to the will of their god al-lah. One does so or one dies.”

oh is that right eh? why don’t i ask a muslim cleric i know about that.

I am sure you could. The answer he would give you would be different, I’m sure from the truth
"Montalban:

“One argument at a time. Islam can be examined as a set of beliefs. If those beliefs promote violence then one can point those out.”

where does it state in the koran that their CORE beliefs are set on violence???

Here’s a few of the verses you may have missed when you last read the Koran
4:101 “… For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.”

4:74, 75 “Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of Satan, feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.”

4:89 “They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them?”

4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than those who sit (at home).

5:36 “The punishment of those who wage war against God and His apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.”

 

[Montalban]

this post needs to be shut down. its getting argumentative.
if a mod sees this, please shut it down. thank you kindly.

My understanding is you’ll have to let someone know, directly. There’s simply no way the mods could read every post to check up on such messages.