Religious intolerance in the world

[Valke2]

What I’m trying to get is that an interpretation of a document is not the same as the document being interpreted. If it were, that interpretation would be written in the document!

When there are Islamonazis interpreting the Koran one way, that doesn’t mean that is what the Koran teaches (unless specifically written!) It is what the Islamonazis teach, not the koran’s teaching.

That’s pure semantics. THe teachings of the Koran that say it is not only perminssible to kill and die in GOd’s name, but that your reward will be greater for doing so, are beliefs shared by foundations for millions and millions. Whether this is done through a central authority or not is not the point. It is an example of religious intolerancel. When a Christian says that no one can get to heaven if they don’t believe that Jesus is God, and then permits someone to be persecuted because they fail to acknolwedge this belief, it is an example of religious intolerance, whether or not those words actually appear in scripture.

When an Iman goes on the air every Friday and compares Jews to insects, dogs, pigs, etc., that is an example of religious intolerance. And whether this is done through scritpual quotes or intepetations of scripture doesn’t change anything.

 

[BobCatholic]

That’s pure semantics. THe teachings of the Koran that say it is not only perminssible to kill and die in GOd’s name,

In self defense, but that’s something you’re tip toeing around.

No place does it say that one is to be a suicide bomber and kill innocents. That is based on an interpretation, and not on the Koran.

Whether this is done through a central authority or not is not the point.

Actually it does. You’ll have one sect interpreting the Koran one way, and another sect interpreting it another way. Both with opposite results. The Koran is not being inconsistent, it is the interpretations which are inconsistent.

And as long as you believe that an interpretation of the Koran is identical to the Koran, you’re basically contradicting yourself when you refuse to show me where your interpretation of the Koran is in the Koran.

One more time. Show me the verse that says one is to be a suicide bomber and kill innocent civilians.

It is an example of religious intolerancel.

Saying that X is the truth is an example of religious intolerance according to your standards. And if we don’t adopt relativism like you want all religions to do, then you’re doing exactly what you accuse them of doing: religious intolerance.

When a Christian says that no one can get to heaven if they don’t believe that Jesus is God, and then permits someone to be persecuted because they fail to acknolwedge this belief,

It says nowhere to persecute anyone if they don’t believe. We are to shake the dust off our feet from their town and move on.

And whether this is done through scritpual quotes or intepetations of scripture doesn’t change anything.

Because you confuse an interpretation of scripture with the scripture being interpreted, claiming that both are identical.
This is not logical. If both were identical, the interpretation would be in the scripture.

 

[Valke2]

Who determines what is the “intent” of the Koran? Is this intent written down in the Koran? If not, that’s an interpretation.

So, the question is simple: Is an interpretation of the Koran the same as the Koran?

I would say “NO” because if it were, the interpretation would be written in the Koran.

You can’t use a written document without interpeting it. However, it is possible to form a general consenus on what a written word means. This is the whole point of language. The Koran itself could never harm or help someone (unless maybe if you used it to smack someone in the head with). But if you are going to implement the ideas and beliefs that are set forth in the Koran, then you are going to have to use “interpetation.”

 

[BobCatholic]

However, it is possible to form a general consenus on what a written word means.

Truth is not determined by a vote. And a consensus is not an infallible guide.

The only way to know the proper interpretation of the Koran is the person who wrote it: Mohammed. I’m sure he didn’t just say “Hey you idiots, read my mind!” No, of course not. I’m sure he passed on his interpretation as well.

But if you are going to implement the ideas and beliefs that are set forth in the Koran, then you are going to have to use “interpetation.”

Right.

And an interpretation of the Koran is not the same as the Koran. It appears you are having trouble understanding this fact.

 

[Montalban]

One more time.

Show me the verse that says that Muslims must be Suicide Bombers.

You will find ZERO such verses.

“Suicide bombers” are based on an INTERPRETATION of the Koran, not the Koran. Are you now claiming that Bin Laden’s interpretation of the Koran is the same as the Koran?

So the evil that Bin Laden is doing is based on HIM, and HIS interpretation of the Koran (NOT the Koran!)

First we need to be clear about terminologies.

The term “suicide bomber” is misleading for it allows Moslem apologists to state, quite rightly, that ‘suicide’ is against the Koran.

However there’s a difference between ‘suicide’ and ‘martydom’.

Here’s two examples.

1. I’m in the army. I’m seriously depressed. I take out my gun and shoot myself.
2. I’m in the army. We’re under heavy fire, I use myself to draw fire, knowing full well I’ll die, so my mates can get away.

One of these is suicide. The other is self-sacrifice (which is martydom in a religious context). Even Jesus said in John 15:13 that one can give one’s life to save others.

So “Suicide Bombers” are really “Martyrdom Bombers”. So what do Islamic texts teach?

Let’s go over the differences in the Koran and Hadith;

Sura 4:147 might seem to condemn suicide too, but again, killing yourself in the name of your faith, is not suicide, but martyrdom

Those who committed suicide are to be be roasted in a fire,

Do not kill yourselves, for Allah is compassionate towards you. Whoever does so, in transgression and wrongfully, We shall roast in a fire, and that is an easy matter for Allah. (an-Nisaa 4:29-30)

and are forbidden Paradise,

Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:
The Prophet said, “Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, ‘If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,’ he is really a Jew). And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire.” Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, “A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him.” (Sahih Bukhari 2.445)

and will be punished in hell by whatever used for suicide,
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire.” (Sahih Bukhari 2.446, 2.445)

However, martydom allows you heavenly reward Suras 61:10-12, 4:74, and 9:111

[61.10] O you who believe! shall I lead you to a merchandise which may deliver you from a painful chastisement?
[61.11] You shall believe in Allah and H,is Apostle, and struggle hard in Allah’s way with your property and your lives; that is better for you, did you but know!
[61.12] He will forgive you your faults and cause you to enter into gardens, beneath which rivers flow, and goodly dwellings in gardens of perpetuity; that is the mighty achievement;

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world’s life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah’s way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.

 

[Montalban]

Truth is not determined by a vote. And a consensus is not an infallible guide.

Then nothing can be known.

Volume 1, Book 11, Number 624:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, “While a man was going on a way, he saw a thorny branch and removed it from the way and Allah became pleased by his action and forgave him for that.” Then the Prophet said, “Five are martyrs: One who dies of plague, one who dies of an abdominal disease, one who dies of drowning, one who is buried alive (and) dies and one who is killed in Allah’s cause.” (The Prophet further said, "If the people knew the reward for pronouncing the Adhan and for standing in the first row (in the congregational prayer) and found no other way to get it except by drawing lots they would do so, and if they knew the reward of offering the Zuhr prayer early (in its stated time), they would race for it and they knew the reward for ‘Isha’ and Fajr prayers in congregation, they would attend them even if they were to crawl’)
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/011.sbt.html#001.011.624

The only point you can make successfully is that there is no verse instructing one to ‘blow oneself up’ simply because they didn’t foress explosives. But one can cause terror, and be killed for al-lah.

You’re called upon in Islam to bring terror to unbelievers
[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

And we can do this by looking at Hadith, which show how Muhammad interpreted the Koran.
As a single example…
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, “The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah’s cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah’s cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.035

Muhammad himself oversaw barbarous treatments…
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Provide us with some milk.” Allah’s Apostle said, “I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.” So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died (Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, “They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.”)
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.261

con’t…

 

[Montalban]

Muhammad ordered assassinations…
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 370:

Narrated Al-Bara bin Azib:

Allah’s Apostle sent a group of persons to Abu Rafi. Abdullah bin Atik entered his house at night, while he was sleeping, and killed him.

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

See also
answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/free_speech.htm

 

[pira114]

Why must we always be bombarded with interpretations of the koran? When will we stop worrying about exactly what it meant? We know it’s full of lies and orders to kill Christians.

We should worry more about the comming war with islam than their stupid fairy tale.

 

[BobCatholic]

Then nothing can be known…

So if truth can be determined by a vote, as you are declaring, I vote that I become a billionaire, and be exempt from the laws of economics.

checks my wallet

nope. That didn’t work. Maybe you should vote.

 

[BobCatholic]

First we need to be clear about terminologies.

The term “suicide bomber” is misleading for it allows Moslem apologists to state, quite rightly, that ‘suicide’ is against the Koran.

However there’s a difference between ‘suicide’ and ‘martydom’.

Here’s two examples.

1. I’m in the army. I’m seriously depressed. I take out my gun and shoot myself.
2. I’m in the army. We’re under heavy fire, I use myself to draw fire, knowing full well I’ll die, so my mates can get away.

One of these is suicide. The other is self-sacrifice (which is martydom in a religious context). Even Jesus said in John 15:13 that one can give one’s life to save others.

So “Suicide Bombers” are really “Martyrdom Bombers”. So what do Islamic texts teach?

It doesn’t matter. Their suicide bombers are really homicide bombers - they murder innocent people.

You didn’t find one single place where one can blow themselves up to kill others and calling that martrydom in the Koran.

That is YOUR interpretation.

And you made the same error over and over: claiming your interpretation of the Koran is the same as the Koran. Logically speaking, that is impossible, for if your interpretation of the Koran was the same as the Koran, it would be written in the Koran!

So either find me this interpretation in the Koran or stop trying to claim your interpretation of the Koran is the same as the Koran.

Simple as that. Logic please.

 

[BobCatholic]

The first instance of suicide bombers in recorded history was done by Japanese Kamikaze pilots during World War II.

Somehow, we must believe that the Koran told them to do it

Somehow we must believe that a 1,300 year old book, a 1,300 year old religion teaches something that didn’t come into existence until 65 years ago.

In a country far far away, named Japan.

By people who were not Muslims! (but apparently followed the Koran’s teachings! XD)

Please.

For the sake of all that is good, decent, rational and logical, please drop the hatred of religion. It leads to absurd conclusions. Like “my interpretation of the Koran is the same as the Koran”

 

[Montalban]

So if truth can be determined by a vote, as you are declaring, I vote that I become a billionaire, and be exempt from the laws of economics.

checks my wallet

nope. That didn’t work. Maybe you should vote.

You seem to think that no one can know the truth about Islamic ‘truth’.

It doesn’t matter. Their suicide bombers are really homicide bombers - they murder innocent people.

They are ‘innocent’ to you and me, but not to them. If they weren’t ‘legitimate’ in their own mind, then they wouldn’t be expecting a reward.

You didn’t find one single place where one can blow themselves up to kill others and calling that martyrdom in the Koran.

That is YOUR interpretation.

No, that’s your straw-man. I admitted there’s nothing there about ‘blowing oneself up’ because explosives weren’t about at the time Muhammad wrote the Koran. But thanks for that. Further, I gave support for the Koran, from Muhammad himself. So it’s not MY interpretation.

So either find me this interpretation in the Koran or stop trying to claim your interpretation of the Koran is the same as the Koran.

Simple as that. Logic please.

You perhaps need to look the term ‘straw man’ up.

And it’s an easy argument you make. If I cited four experts, you’d claim that it’s only their interpretation, and not representative of all of Islam. And you’d do the same with eight, ten, twenty, and so on. Always arguing the truth of the matter could never be known.

And it simply ignores
a) what the Koran says
b) Muhammad’s interpretation of that
c) Islamic expert advise
d) what they are in fact doing, which is killing people and themselves in the name of al-lah.

But let’s just reduce all that to MY interpretation, and offer no evidence as to why it’s wrong!

The first instance of suicide bombers in recorded history was done by Japanese Kamikaze pilots during World War II.

Somehow, we must believe that the Koran told them to do it

Who made the claim that only Moslems are killing for their faith? You are really determined for straw man.

Why on earth this took you three posts to do, I don’t know.