Religious Marriage w/o Legal Contract

[Thorns]

Miss Felicity said,

“Or you’re a troll.”

I’m starting to lean in that direction because of the stuff about it being fair to put the poorer spouse in a homeless shelter.

If its a divorce or annulment, theyre no longer the spouse and should therefore no longer be under the mans protection.

What did the woman do before meeting the man? Had her own job? Lived with the parents? Probably time to start doing that again. Just being realistic. Single men and single women (which is what they are after a valid annulment) should not depend on anyone for this very reason. Always have a back up plan as in a job or degree.

 

[Xantippe]

There’s an old saying that says, you can’t cheat an honest man. I’m sure there are exceptions, but people who continually obsess about being cheated generally aren’t either honest or fair. Honest and honorable people don’t think like that.

If one is a person of good character, one will recognize other people of good character. If one isn’t of good character, one won’t be able to.

 

[enterthenewage]

Excellent video that summarizes a lot of things about why things have gone downhill.

youtube.com/watch?v=YzNN42bJUkw

 

[lily22]

satan broke up marriage. it used to be a sacrament, but now lawyers can hack it to pieces and judges. they brainwash the spouse, and threaten them out of fear, to attack them so the lawyers can get all their stuff.

I see no issue having marriages without state intervention/control and abusiveness.

The types of divorces now are very horrible. People can go to jail for them.

I would say, it’s the end times.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

To answer the OP, here’s why the arrangement doesn’t work for catholics (or me for that matter): Marriage is all in. Your heart, mind, and material possessions. If you’re holding something back out of distrust or concern over divorce, then you don’t have the kind of marriage that the church, or anyone with a brain, would sign off on.

 

[MJJean]

Frankly, I don’t see a difference between “religious marriage” without the weight of society and the law behind it and merely living together. “Spiritual marriage” without legal obligations is the same thing as cohabitation. It’s playing married with none of the adult responsibilities, duties, and obligations of actual marriage.

 

[The_Bucket]

To answer the OP, here’s why the arrangement doesn’t work for catholics (or me for that matter): Marriage is all in. Your heart, mind, and material possessions. If you’re holding something back out of distrust or concern over divorce, then you don’t have the kind of marriage that the church, or anyone with a brain, would sign off on.

This.

Marriage isn’t about you and it sure isn’t about “your stuff.” Marriage is about self-sacrifice in service of another.

Could you end up getting the short end of the stick from a financial perspective? Sure. Does this happen frequently? Sadly, far too often. But you know what? Lots of women also unknowingly marry abusers. I daresay that’s a much worse fate.

These things happen because we are human. We are fallen. We come up short all the time. As another person said in another thread… we cannot accept the flaws of our mates, but we must accept that our mates have flaws. Similarly, we must accept that life may throw us curveballs, but we cannot go into a marriage with a wary mind or one that is always on the lookout to protect ourselves.

BEL says it well. You’re all in, or you’re not in at all. There’s no middle ground. Cross the bridge of what might be due to the fallenness of man if you get there. But you can’t go into a marriage with that mindset. It’s anti-Catholic and a self-fulfilling prophesy.

It’s also unmanly. There. I said it.

 

[Xantippe]

The Bucket said:

"BEL says it well. You’re all in, or you’re not in at all. There’s no middle ground. Cross the bridge of what might be due to the fallenness of man if you get there. But you can’t go into a marriage with that mindset. It’s anti-Catholic and a self-fulfilling prophesy.

“It’s also unmanly. There. I said it.”

Yep.

Is there anything less “alpha” than whining about how mean and treacherous women are?

MJJean said:

“Frankly, I don’t see a difference between “religious marriage” without the weight of society and the law behind it and merely living together. “Spiritual marriage” without legal obligations is the same thing as cohabitation. It’s playing married with none of the adult responsibilities, duties, and obligations of actual marriage.”

There’d be the obligation of lifelong fidelity for a Catholic, but I suspect that the OP isn’t really thinking of that and would whine hard about that, too, were he thinking about it.

It’s really weird to at the same time want a woman so much, but at the same time to have no respect and no trust. It’s pretty clear from that exactly what they want from a woman, and on what terms.

If you’re not sure, keep waiting and see a therapist to work on trust issues.

 

[Lorelei12]

I don’t know where you are getting your information from about the courts being fair, but I will disagree with you until the day I die. Let me use my parents for example. They began the divorce process in 2008. 2008 is not 3 decades ago! Long story short, the divorce was completely unfair for him and he got screwed over badly. My mother, who I have cut off all contact with permanently, got alimony, child support, and a bunch of other stuff that she never worked for. What you are saying about the system being better is just plain wrong. There are many men who will agree with me to the core.

I have a question for you- when you say your mother “got a bunch of stuff she never worked for”, what does that mean to you? Just trying to figure out where you are coming from.

 

[The_Bucket]

I have a question for you- when you say your mother “got a bunch of stuff she never worked for”, what does that mean to you? Just trying to figure out where you are coming from.

I’m gonna put twenty bucks on the answer being the obvious and one that everyone is going to cringe at.

 

[The_Bucket]

Is there anything less “alpha” than whining about how mean and treacherous women are?

I can think of a few things, but it’s pretty close. I mean yes, some women are mean and treacherous. Some flip a switch and become just God awful and have ruined the lives of innocent men. And some men literally beat and rape their wives. Some even kill them if they “get out of line” or “dishonor their families” by doing stuff like, oh I don’t know, learning how to read a book.

I’m not ignorant to the travails some men have endured in their marriages. There are plenty of horror stories even here on CAF. It’s appalling and terrible.

But I don’t know what universe people live in where they think that situation is somehow worse than women being treated like property or children here in the West until the last 120 years or so… and still being treated as such today in much of the Middle East and Asia.

But hey, I guess pointing out facts constitutes white knighting or something.

 

[Lorelei12]

I’m gonna put twenty bucks on the answer being the obvious and one that everyone is going to cringe at.

Yeah, that’s what I’m figuring but I thought before I went any further I’d at least ask.

 

[edwest2]

Ed, I completely agree and what you describe is ideal.

However, our world is not ideal sadly. People are expert scammers and con artists, some are so good you’d be comfortable and convinced you knew them.

The thing about love is that it usually nullifies logic and reasoning. People know that and they take advantage.

How does one take precautions the Catholic way?

Go to your priest. Get to know her/his family. The apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree. If the marriage was intended only so that the other person could get what they want then simply ask: “Before we get married, tell me. What do you expect to happen?”

Before a relative of mine and her fiance got married, they had to go to a retreat and deal with those practical questions regarding life. In the past, the man went to her father and told him he intended to marry his daughter. The father, having been his age once, got it. So, he would ask all the right questions: “How are you going to support my daughter? Tell me about your job. Do you have reliable transportation? Where are you going to live?” It was her father’s and her mother’s proper place to make sure their daughter didn’t end up with a lazy guy, a drunk, and a smooth talker who only wanted what he wanted. The same for the young lady talking with his parents.

Talking to a priest before marriage is helpful for practical and spiritual purposes. When you stand before him and make your vows before God and man, you’re expected to keep them. Like I wrote earlier, people, for whatever reason, don’t take the time to really get to know the other person. Such as, what are his or her friends like? Do they have shady characteristics? Trust is something earned. And if you’re not sure then don’t keep the relationship going.

I know that for some, it’s “Well, we’ll date for a while, get engaged for a year and get married.” Not all people are the same, and if you really feel you can’t trust the other person then get out.

If anyone is bothered with the possible financial risks down the road then perhaps marriage is not a good choice. Life is a risk. Sometimes, the other person isn’t ready. Sometimes the other person turns out to be unsuitable, so you don’t end up marrying him or her for good reason. I know some people don’t like the word ‘no’ or ‘it didn’t work out.’ But that’s how it goes.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Phemie]

Marriage is also a societal construct in which the State has a vested interest. The Church is not going to help you cheat the State.

Even in countries where the civil marriage ceremony is separate from the Church ceremony, the Church will not celebrate the religious marriage until such time as the bride and groom can produce a marriage certificate from the State. That’s what the law is in France, Germany, Austria, etc. and the Church complies because the law is not unjust.

 

[thewanderer]

To answer the OP, here’s why the arrangement doesn’t work for catholics (or me for that matter): Marriage is all in. Your heart, mind, and material possessions. If you’re holding something back out of distrust or concern over divorce, then you don’t have the kind of marriage that the church, or anyone with a brain, would sign off on.

THIS

Look, OP, in the other thread you claimed to like my long post and say that that was the answer to how you can think about getting married despite living with what you perceive to be an unjust legal system. Well, BEL’s answer above is saying the exact same thing and is the same answer you obviously need to hear again because you are essentially just re-asking the same question. Religious marriage (and often secular marriage too) requires that you give your whole self, commit your whole self to this other person no matter what. I’m sorry, but its impossible to commit yourself unconditionally to someone while at the same time trying to find a way to make it so that you can legally leave them homeless if things don’t work out how you want them to. As has been pointed out to you in the past these two mindsets are incompatible.

 

[enterthenewage]

There’s an old saying that says, you can’t cheat an honest man. I’m sure there are exceptions, but people who continually obsess about being cheated generally aren’t either honest or fair. Honest and honorable people don’t think like that. If one is a person of good character, one will recognize other people of good character. If one isn’t of good character, one won’t be able to.

Many honest people are screwed over in divorce. To think otherwise is delusional.

To answer the OP, here’s why the arrangement doesn’t work for catholics (or me for that matter): Marriage is all in. Your heart, mind, and material possessions. If you’re holding something back out of distrust or concern over divorce, then you don’t have the kind of marriage that the church, or anyone with a brain, would sign off on.

The majority of the population does not meet the Church’s criteria for marriage then. Even if we look solely at catholic weddings, I’m sure that most people are not 100% all in for this type of institutionalized slavery you are advocating. Most people have their breaking points where they will want out.

Frankly, I don’t see a difference between “religious marriage” without the weight of society and the law behind it and merely living together. “Spiritual marriage” without legal obligations is the same thing as cohabitation. It’s playing married with none of the adult responsibilities, duties, and obligations of actual marriage.

The difference is that religious marriage without marriage places all of the same spiritual requirements on both individuals, while looking at the secular government’s family court systems with contempt. Cohabitation on the other hand is much more secular and is more heavily focused on two people being together without any type of spiritual standard by which to live. That is the difference. But from a strictly legal perspective, yes, they are exactly the same.

Marriage isn’t about you and it sure isn’t about “your stuff.” Marriage is about self-sacrifice in service of another.

Could you end up getting the short end of the stick from a financial perspective? Sure. Does this happen frequently? Sadly, far too often. But you know what? Lots of women also unknowingly marry abusers. I daresay that’s a much worse fate.

These things happen because we are human. We are fallen. We come up short all the time. As another person said in another thread… we cannot accept the flaws of our mates, but we must accept that our mates have flaws. Similarly, we must accept that life may throw us curveballs, but we cannot go into a marriage with a wary mind or one that is always on the lookout to protect ourselves.

BEL says it well. You’re all in, or you’re not in at all. There’s no middle ground. Cross the bridge of what might be due to the fallenness of man if you get there. But you can’t go into a marriage with that mindset. It’s anti-Catholic and a self-fulfilling prophesy.

It’s also unmanly. There. I said it.

People have to look out for themselves and not just those around them. There are some things that I am 100% unwilling to do, even for a female who might become the love of my live. If I was with a wonderful girl and she asked me to get circumcised, I would not do it, even if it meant breaking up and having to find someone else. If the marriage was a repeat of my parents marriage, then I would surely get divorced (and much sooner than my parents). Most people have breaking points at which they will just walk away from a relationship, and I am no exception to this. I would rather be a divorced catholic than in a miserable relationship. Lol “unmanly” That trick doesn’t work on me. I don’t let other people turn me into a slave with their expectations for masculine behavior.

There’d be the obligation of lifelong fidelity for a Catholic, but I suspect that the OP isn’t really thinking of that and would whine hard about that, too, were he thinking about it.

It’s really weird to at the same time want a woman so much, but at the same time to have no respect and no trust. It’s pretty clear from that exactly what they want from a woman, and on what terms.

If you’re not sure, keep waiting and see a therapist to work on trust issues.

If I just wanted to have sex with a virgin, I would have done it in high school. But I want more than that. I do want to be with a moral person. There is nothing to see a therapist about. There have been plenty of other people who arrived at the same conclusion that I did, which is that the family courts are biased towards men. I read about one guy from Canada who ran off to the Phillipines because the courts got looney with the payments they order him to make to his wife. If I ever crossed paths with him at a restaurant, I would buy him a drink for his bravery and levelheadedness.

I have a question for you- when you say your mother “got a bunch of stuff she never worked for”, what does that mean to you? Just trying to figure out where you are coming from.

Division of “marital property”, what else were you thinking of?

 

[enterthenewage]

I can think of a few things, but it’s pretty close. I mean yes, some women are mean and treacherous. Some flip a switch and become just God awful and have ruined the lives of innocent men. And some men literally beat and rape their wives. Some even kill them if they “get out of line” or “dishonor their families” by doing stuff like, oh I don’t know, learning how to read a book.

I’m not ignorant to the travails some men have endured in their marriages. There are plenty of horror stories even here on CAF. It’s appalling and terrible.

But I don’t know what universe people live in where they think that situation is somehow worse than women being treated like property or children here in the West until the last 120 years or so… and still being treated as such today in much of the Middle East and Asia.

But hey, I guess pointing out facts constitutes white knighting or something.

Seriously, what is your deal with trying to make it seem like women always have it worse than men? In western countries, it has gotten to the point where women have more rights, privilleges, and entitlements than men. More women graduate from college than men in the US. And physical violence can go both ways. I can easily refute your statement by pointing out that men who are victims of domestic violence are much less likely to be taken seriously than their female counterparts. And who cares about what is going on in Asia and the Middle East? If you want to start a thread about womens rights in those places, go right ahead. But this discussion is about the unfair legal system in the US. If the legal system was actually fair to both sides, this discussion about purely spiritual marriages would not be taking place. The assertion made by you, and several other posters, that people should sign an unfair legal contract anyway, is not going to win much support for the church.

Marriage is also a societal construct in which the State has a vested interest. The Church is not going to help you cheat the State.

Even in countries where the civil marriage ceremony is separate from the Church ceremony, the Church will not celebrate the religious marriage until such time as the bride and groom can produce a marriage certificate from the State. That’s what the law is in France, Germany, Austria, etc. and the Church complies because the law is not unjust.

Cheating the state out of what?

THIS

Look, OP, in the other thread you claimed to like my long post and say that that was the answer to how you can think about getting married despite living with what you perceive to be an unjust legal system. Well, BEL’s answer above is saying the exact same thing and is the same answer you obviously need to hear again because you are essentially just re-asking the same question. Religious marriage (and often secular marriage too) requires that you give your whole self, commit your whole self to this other person no matter what. I’m sorry, but its impossible to commit yourself unconditionally to someone while at the same time trying to find a way to make it so that you can legally leave them homeless if things don’t work out how you want them to. As has been pointed out to you in the past these two mindsets are incompatible.

Which post are you referring to?

 

[The_Bucket]

Marriage is institutionalized slavery. Willing slavery to your spouse. Just as we are all called to be willing slaves/servants of Christ.

Why are you so concerned about this anyway? It’s not like you’re married… nor are you going to get married anytime soon.

 

[thewanderer]

Which post are you referring to?

Sorry, now that I’ve gone back to look it seems I confused you with another poster.

 

[The_Bucket]

Division of “marital property”, what else were you thinking of?

Count it… AND THE FOUL!

But seriously, of course you were going to say that. Because you think that married spouses are not actually partners. That the two aren’t really one flesh. That stay-at-home-moms don’t actually contribute because they’re not making any money. Et cetera, et cetera.

You’re not going to find any agreement from me buddy. I make all the money, but my wife does the real work. Raising kids, caring for the home, budgeting, is all very, very real work. My “second shift” when I come home and help out around the house is much harder than the first shift of working for the man for 8-9 hours…