Religious Marriage w/o Legal Contract

[Lorelei12]

Division of “marital property”, what else were you thinking of?

Yeah, that’s what I thought you meant.

Was your mother a stay-at-home mom by chance? If she was, what do you suppose that she should receive for her years spent taking care of you when your dad was working outside the home? Feeding you, changing you, caring for you when you were sick, making sure you were safe, cleaning up after you, washing your clothes…and not to mention all the other household tasks women who stay home generally have responsibility for. Did she take care of your dad’s laundry? Cook him dinner? Clean up after him, get groceries, scrub the floor, clean the bathroom, and a million other things?

What does she get for that?

 

[thewanderer]

OP, I will just repeat

I’m sorry, but its impossible to commit yourself unconditionally to someone while at the same time trying to find a way to make it so that you can legally leave them homeless if things don’t work out how you want them to. As has been pointed out to you in the past these two mindsets are incompatible.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

salary.com/stay-at-home-mom-infographic/

 

[enterthenewage]

Marriage is institutionalized slavery. Willing slavery to your spouse. Just as we are all called to be willing slaves/servants of Christ.

Why are you so concerned about this anyway? It’s not like you’re married… nor are you going to get married anytime soon.

At some point, you have to be reasonable. I wouldn’t get my hands amputated because I was asked to by a spouse. This is getting redundant so I won’t go further on this point.

Count it… AND THE FOUL!

But seriously, of course you were going to say that. Because you think that married spouses are not actually partners. That the two aren’t really one flesh. That stay-at-home-moms don’t actually contribute because they’re not making any money. Et cetera, et cetera.

You’re not going to find any agreement from me buddy. I make all the money, but my wife does the real work. Raising kids, caring for the home, budgeting, is all very, very real work. My “second shift” when I come home and help out around the house is much harder than the first shift of working for the man for 8-9 hours…

What else did you expect me to say? I don’t know how else you would interpret my statement. I’m not looking for any agreement from you. I am very hardline about social and legal fairness. That will not change in 20 years.

Yeah, that’s what I thought you meant.

Was your mother a stay-at-home mom by chance? If she was, what do you suppose that she should receive for her years spent taking care of you when your dad was working outside the home? Feeding you, changing you, caring for you when you were sick, making sure you were safe, cleaning up after you, washing your clothes…and not to mention all the other household tasks women who stay home generally have responsibility for. Did she take care of your dad’s laundry? Cook him dinner? Clean up after him, get groceries, scrub the floor, clean the bathroom, and a million other things?

What does she get for that?

Yes she was, and it wasn’t because this was a mutually agreed upon setup, it’s because she never actively sought a career for herself. I was an only child for over a decade before my sibling was born. She could have easily sought employment while I was at school. I’m not going to write an autobiography about my childhood, but I will say that she was a bad parent. For that reason, I cut off contact with her and I have no intention of reconnecting with her anytime in this lifetime. What should she receive? Given the things that happened, I don’t think she should have received anything at all except for getting kicked into a homeless shelter. I’m just grateful to God that she didn’t get custody of me. The only reason she did not was that I was already almost 18 when she filed for custody, and my father filed an appeal at the court to string it along. I turned 18 before the appeal hearing

OP, I will just repeat

I already responded to your point. I agree they are incompatible and my response is that I’m not looking to commit myself unconditionally. I won’t be stupid about it and leave at a whim over an argument. But there are situations where I would say to myself “I had enough” and make an exit from the marriage.

 

[enterthenewage]

Here is the guy I mentioned earlier who fled to the Philippines. He deserves a toast IMO

thestar.com/news/gta/2012/07/01/deadbeat_dad_flees_to_philippines_leaving_four_kids_without_support.html

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Here is the guy I mentioned earlier who fled to the Philippines. He deserves a toast IMO

thestar.com/news/gta/2012/07/01/deadbeat_dad_flees_to_philippines_leaving_four_kids_without_support.html

Yep, abandoning his children is toast worthy.

 

[thewanderer]

I already responded to your point. I agree they are incompatible and my response is that I’m not looking to commit myself unconditionally. I won’t be stupid about it and leave at a whim over an argument. But there are situations where I would say to myself “I had enough” and make an exit from the marriage.

Unconditional commitment does not mean you refuse to acknowledge the necessity to leave an abusive situation, both for your own good and the good of your kids. Unconditional commitment is not contrary to the idea of the possible necessity of the spouses separating, whether for a time or permanently, due to issues that arise. However, unconditional commitment is contrary to the idea that you are trying to find a way to get around the rules so that you will legally be able to leave your spouse homeless on any old whim you happen to experience, which is what you are proposing.

Also, if you are not looking to make an unconditional commitment then your question in this thread is meaningless. It is impossible to enter into a valid religious marriage without making an unconditional commitment to your spouse. So, if you are not thinking about an unconditional commitment whats the point of asking about a religious marriage as the two are one and the same?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I already responded to your point. I agree they are incompatible and my response is that I’m not looking to commit myself unconditionally. I won’t be stupid about it and leave at a whim over an argument. But there are situations where I would say to myself “I had enough” and make an exit from the marriage.

One cannot enter into a sacramental marriage with the attitude, “I had enough” It would be an invalid attempt at marriage.

 

[thewanderer]

Here is the guy I mentioned earlier who fled to the Philippines. He deserves a toast IMO

thestar.com/news/gta/2012/07/01/deadbeat_dad_flees_to_philippines_leaving_four_kids_without_support.html

He deserves a toast for abandoning his wife and children, ensuring that his family will not have the financial means necessary to take care of all the difficult and expensive issues the children are dealing with, and all because he feels like he won’t be able to have a “high enough standard of living” if he stays? Unbelievably selfish of him and I assure you, his kids are going to have a very hard time ever forgiving him for that betrayal. Because no matter how much he sugar coats it by claiming to not be abandoning them that is what it is and they will recognize it as such, a betrayal. I cannot believe you applaud this mans actions. A man who abandons his children like that, especially while they are in such difficult situations (one has cancer for crying out loud) deserves no applause, especially when his only reason for doing so is that his standard of living won’t be as good as he thinks he needs and deserves. Children have to come first, no matter what.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

He deserves a toast for abandoning his wife and children, ensuring that his family will not have the financial means necessary to take care of all the difficult and expensive issues the children are dealing with, and all because he feels like he won’t be able to have a “high enough standard of living” if he stays? Unbelievably selfish of him and I assure you, his kids are going to have a very hard time ever forgiving him for that betrayal. Because no matter how much he sugar coats it by claiming to not be abandoning them that is what it is and they will recognize it as such, a betrayal. I cannot believe you applaud this mans actions. A man who abandons his children like that, especially while they are in such difficult situations (one has cancer for crying out loud) deserves no applause, especially when his only reason for doing so is that his standard of living won’t be as good as he thinks he needs and deserves. Children have to come first, no matter what.

Amazing, isn’t it? I thought the part where he sent his kid banana chips for his birthday was especially touching…

 

[Miss_Felicity]

Are we all convinced that we are feeding a troll now? Anybody that sees anything upstanding in abandoning children especially special needs ones, I don’t know if there is anything we can say that would help guide him back to normal thinking. I hope for the sake of his future he just enjoys stirring the pot online. If not, thats just truly sad.

 

[enterthenewage]

Yep, abandoning his children is toast worthy.

The woman was trying to take the guy to the cleaners. I think what that guy did was perfectly rational. It’s not like he had any other choice. And if he kidnapped his kids and took them abroad, which some parents do too, you people would be screaming bloody murder.

Unconditional commitment does not mean you refuse to acknowledge the necessity to leave an abusive situation, both for your own good and the good of your kids. Unconditional commitment is not contrary to the idea of the possible necessity of the spouses separating, whether for a time or permanently, due to issues that arise. However, unconditional commitment is contrary to the idea that you are trying to find a way to get around the rules so that you will legally be able to leave your spouse homeless on any old whim you happen to experience, which is what you are proposing.

Also, if you are not looking to make an unconditional commitment then your question in this thread is meaningless. It is impossible to enter into a valid religious marriage without making an unconditional commitment to your spouse. So, if you are not thinking about an unconditional commitment whats the point of asking about a religious marriage as the two are one and the same?

One cannot enter into a sacramental marriage with the attitude, “I had enough” It would be an invalid attempt at marriage.

Let me ask the two of you this question: How much harm does a spouse have to do for the Church to accept the person’s desire to leave the marriage?

He deserves a toast for abandoning his wife and children, ensuring that his family will not have the financial means necessary to take care of all the difficult and expensive issues the children are dealing with, and all because he feels like he won’t be able to have a “high enough standard of living” if he stays? Unbelievably selfish of him and I assure you, his kids are going to have a very hard time ever forgiving him for that betrayal. Because no matter how much he sugar coats it by claiming to not be abandoning them that is what it is and they will recognize it as such, a betrayal. I cannot believe you applaud this mans actions. A man who abandons his children like that, especially while they are in such difficult situations (one has cancer for crying out loud) deserves no applause, especially when his only reason for doing so is that his standard of living won’t be as good as he thinks he needs and deserves. Children have to come first, no matter what.

LMAO, what a poor woman, how will she manage? It must be so hard trying to make it in a home valued at over 1 million dollars It’s this type of mentality that makes me scared to consider marriage. The article considers only one side of the issue. All of you are also considering one side of the issue. What about his side? No wonder guys feel like women have all the rights nowadays. Sometimes the only real option a guy has is to pack up and run. If I was in a similar situation, I would probably do the same. The only difference is that I would take my kid with me.

Are we all convinced that we are feeding a troll now? Anybody that sees anything upstanding in abandoning children especially special needs ones, I don’t know if there is anything we can say that would help guide him back to normal thinking. I hope for the sake of his future he just enjoys stirring the pot online. If not, thats just truly sad.

Was the guy who ran off to the Philippines a troll? When some guys tell their girlfriends they don’t believe in marriage, are they trolls too? They are real people who feel this way. If I had a less packed schedule, I would get together with one of my film friends to record a video response to some of this stuff. But that’s not feasible at this time. I don’t see what is so abnormal about my thinking. Looking out for your own self interests is very normal and people of all walks of life do it. You guys are the ones who harbor these fringe ideas.

 

[thewanderer]

The woman was trying to take the guy to the cleaners. I think what that guy did was perfectly rational. It’s not like he had any other choice. And if he kidnapped his kids and took them abroad, which some parents do too, you people would be screaming bloody murder.

Let me ask the two of you this question: How much harm does a spouse have to do for the Church to accept the person’s desire to leave the marriage?

Well, here is what Canon Law has to say about it, if you are interested

Can. 1151 Spouses have the duty and right to preserve conjugal living unless a legitimate cause excuses them.

Can. 1152 §1. Although it is earnestly recommended that a spouse, moved by Christian charity and concerned for the good of the family, not refuse forgiveness to an adulterous partner and not disrupt conjugal life, nevertheless, if the spouse did not condone the fault of the other expressly or tacitly, the spouse has the right to sever conjugal living unless the spouse consented to the adultery, gave cause for it, or also committed adultery.

§2. Tacit condonation exists if the innocent spouse has had marital relations voluntarily with the other spouse after having become certain of the adultery. It is presumed, moreover, if the spouse observed conjugal living for six months and did not make recourse to the ecclesiastical or civil authority.

§3. If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living voluntarily, the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority which, after having investigated all the circumstances, is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation permanently.

Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too diYcult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.

§2. In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.

Can. 1154 After the separation of the spouses has taken place, the adequate support and education of the children must always be suitably provided.

Can. 1155 The innocent spouse laudably can readmit the other spouse to conjugal life; in this case the innocent spouse renounces the right to separate.

LMAO, what a poor woman, how will she manage? It must be so hard trying to make it in a home valued at over 1 million dollars It’s this type of mentality that makes me scared to consider marriage. The article considers only one side of the issue. All of you are also considering one side of the issue. What about his side? No wonder guys feel like women have all the rights nowadays. Sometimes the only real option a guy has is to pack up and run. If I was in a similar situation, I would probably do the same. The only difference is that I would take my kid with me.

How do you know I’m not considering both sides? It honestly sounds like they are both angry and bitter at each other and tried to get what they could and were both upset about the result. However, you can hardly claim that the wife is making out like a bandit if she is going bankrupt in a few months. And the fact that he is making excuses about the fact that he is betraying and abandoning his kids is unpardonable. I’m sorry, but I grew up with an absent father and I know how this affects kids, and to think that he is doing it so that he can have the standard of living he decides he needs (as opposed to actually not being able to afford it) while being with his new wife is just not gonna cut it as a sufficient reason for his kids to explain why he left and refused to help them out with their needs, even as one of them is recovering from cancer. Like I said, I’m sorry, but by abandoning his kids and refusing to pay child support he is acting abominably towards them. I don’t care how horrible you paint his wife out to be or how horribly she betrayed him. His actions are not ok.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

The problem with the course of action you are advising is that there is no legal ground for the man to fall back on. Both sides can “find out what both of you expect”, but a common pleas judge will not care if the woman broke her promises. Legal contracts are legal contracts my friend. She can still take the guy to the cleaners and he will be left with very little if she wants to make the divorce nasty for him.

Sorry, but you are clearly clueless on legal matters. It works both ways, and I have firsthand experience with this. When my wife divorced me, I held all the cards. I paid for her college education, she graduated, and I was entitled to a portion of the present value of her future earnings.

You may think that the law favors one over the other, simply because more woman than men end up with the children, and the person (regardless of sex) with the children may be entitled to child support and/or alimony depending on the circumstances.

Those are the facts.

 

[Lorelei12]

Looking out for your own self interests is very normal and people of all walks of life do it. You guys are the ones who harbor these fringe ideas.

“Us guys” with all these “fringe ideas”…a lot of us are happily married. You can’t be happily married and be primarily concerned with yourself. In fact, even as a single person you cannot be happy and primarily concerned with yourself.

If you don’t like the idea of being married, don’t do it, please. But don’t pretend that you know anything about what makes a marriage last.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

But to respond, looking out for your own well-being is not being jaded. It’s called being rational and knowing how to balance risk/reward. If I’m so “jaded”, then why is it that women mostly get custody of children and there are so many men saying the same thing I am?

Risk/reward works both ways. If a potential spouse had your attitude, I would simply tell them to have a nice day and never look back. A individual jaded about marriage, e.g., one worried about getting divorced in the future, divisions of future assets, etc. , is an individual not suited for marriage.

 

[The_Bucket]

Are we all convinced that we are feeding a troll now? Anybody that sees anything upstanding in abandoning children especially special needs ones, I don’t know if there is anything we can say that would help guide him back to normal thinking. I hope for the sake of his future he just enjoys stirring the pot online. If not, thats just truly sad.

Indeed. I say he’s earned this, but nothing more.

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images...zen-gin-kaname-tousen-vs-narutoverse-7670.gif

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

LMAO, what a poor woman, how will she manage? It must be so hard trying to make it in a home valued at over 1 million dollars It’s this type of mentality that makes me scared to consider marriage. The article considers only one side of the issue. All of you are also considering one side of the issue. What about his side? No wonder guys feel like women have all the rights nowadays. Sometimes the only real option a guy has is to pack up and run. If I was in a similar situation, I would probably do the same. The only difference is that I would take my kid with me.

.

Her home is worth that much. It does not mean she has anywhere close to those assets available. In fact the home has a $600,000 mortgage, meaning she has about 400,000 equity in the home. She needs to sell the home to have access to it, I doubt that a bank will give her an equity loan with that much existing debt.

So, the home needs to be sold. The family needs to live somewhere, so I would imagine that the profit (if there is much, especially if the house sells for less than the estimated value) would need to be invested into another home. The family needs to live somewhere.

The man was supposed to pay child support to his children. The spousal support, aka the taking to the cleaners as you refer to it, was about 1500 per month.

Let’s think why she has custody? Maybe because he didn’t even want any photographs of his kids, and thinks a bag of banana chips is a good gift for a son recovering from cancer?

 

[Galbin]

Yes, a decent number of men do think of divorce before marriage, just as a decent number of people think about about much it will cost to repair a house they are buying or how well a car performed in safety tests. If a person gets into their car and wears a seat-belt on, does that make them paranoid for thinking they might get into an accident? I don’t understand why you would see this line of thinking as flawed. I think it’s very rational to think of all possible outcomes when making important, risky decisions.

And prenups would not work well because they are very limited in what they can do. You can’t put anything that goes against public policy in a prenup, hence you still have to play by the government’s rules when you sign the marital contract. The only way to play by your own rules is to not sign the government’s contract.

You shouldn’t get married if you are not 100% sure of the relationship, and if you are already thinking about what would happen in a divorce. If you are thinking like this, you are with the wrong person. And I speak as someone who nearly married the wrong person myself! Also, I get the impression from your posts that you’ve either been hurt deeply by a woman or else you harbour resentment towards them. Again, not something to carry into a marriage.

As to why the CC would never agree to this: well it would show that you would not be fully entering into the marriage sacrament. The CC does everything it can to make sure the couple understand this. Hence the compulsory pre-marriage courses. The lady at mine said that she had once held a course where one couple relaised that they were not ready for marriage as a result. So if you were taking part in a Holy sacrament while thinking about how to protect your assets you would be proving that you didn’t believe your marriage would be for life. And that is a violation of the sacrament.

 

[Sunbreak]

The legal system or divorce isn’t perfect, but it is fair in many cases. Many financial settlements take into consideration the well-being of a couple’s children. The children deserve to be taken care of. They are innocent victims of the divorce, so yes there will be child support. There are not many wives that get alimony for themselves these days - maybe in some of the divorces of the wealthy, but not so much in the middle and poorer classes. Judges are more likely to grant a limited period of time for such things or maybe alimony only for the time it would take for the woman to get an education to be able to get a job.
Without a legal contract during marriage, there are many other things that can be problematic. For example, if your spouse is in the hospital and you aren’t married, you may have no right to know her medical condition or make any decisions on her behalf if she can’t.