Religious orders with the latin mass?

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Just wanted to clarify that you are not speaking of the Carmelite Rite (Rite of Holy Sepulchre) that is offered in North Western Wyoming. This is not outside the control of the Father Prior.

I am an altar server for this Mass which uses the last updated missal of 1935 from the Carmelites. The mass is in a word, extraordinary (pardon the pun)!

The Carmelite Monks in Wyoming, whose website is carmelitemonks.org/ are most certainly outside of the control of both the Prior General of the Order of Carmelites and of the Superior General of the O.C.D…

They are under the local bishop.

I am also confused how they can use the Carmelite Rite which neither the O.Carm. nor the O.C,D, can use as both of the orders surrendered the rite to Rome in the early 1970’s.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

The Carmelite Monks in Wyoming, whose website is carmelitemonks.org/ are most certainly outside of the control of both the Prior General of the Order of Carmelites and of the Superior General of the O.C.D…

They are under the local bishop.

I am also confused how they can use the Carmelite Rite which neither the O.Carm. nor the O.C,D, can use as both of the orders surrendered the rite to Rome in the early 1970’s.

There is an order in Colorado, a group of Carmelite nuns, that use the old Carmelite Rite as well. They use only the Tridentine Mass and if you haven’t been to one, don’t even think about asking permission to join. They won’t accept you. I discovered they are a Renegade order and the religious priests that serve their Masses are members of the SSPX church. I was glad I wasn’t accepted there after I found this out.

They aren’t aligned with OCD or O.Carm. But they practice the teachings of St. John and St. Teresa.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

There is an order in Colorado, a group of Carmelite nuns, that use the old Carmelite Rite as well.

There seems to be some confusion here.

When religious orders speak of a “rite” of the order, such as the Carmelite Rite, they are speaking of a Eucharistic rite, a form of the Mass.

Following a certain calendar for the order is known as the Ordo, like the Carmelite Ordo, which contains saints for the order that are not usually celebrated by the rest of the Church.

The Carmelite rite of the Mass has been surrendered to Rome and is not celebrated by either the O.Carm. or the OCD any longer. We still have a Carmelite Ordo and celebrate our saints according to it.

I hope this helps clear up some things.

 

[barb_finnegan]

Interesting.

I will be visiting the FSSP seminary in Denton next month, and part of the trip will be a visit to a convent of traditional cloistered Carmelite nuns. Are they not “officialy” Carmelites either? (I’m not sure of the exact name of the convent, but it is close to the seminary if that helps any).

You must be referring to the Carmel of Jesus, Mary and Joseph in Valparaiso, Nebraska. They’re ‘officially’ Carmelites, so don’t worry about them! The community is ‘bursting’ with vocations! The FSSP priests say the EF Mass in their chapel. And it’s a large, beautiful chapel, too-the FSSP priests and seminarians use it for the Holy Saturday Vigil Mass because their own chapel is still being built.

BTW-I love your picture of Blessed Charles of Austria!

 

[carmelaltarboy]

The Carmelite Monks in Wyoming, whose website is carmelitemonks.org/ are most certainly outside of the control of both the Prior General of the Order of Carmelites and of the Superior General of the O.C.D…

They are under the local bishop.

I am also confused how they can use the Carmelite Rite which neither the O.Carm. nor the O.C,D, can use as both of the orders surrendered the rite to Rome in the early 1970’s.

I am not certain that you understand what happened in 1973. In Fact, the carmelites allowed their Mass to fall into disuse in favor of the Paul VI mass. That being said however, there have always existed, including in ISRAEL, monestaries that continued to use and STILL use the Missale Carmelitarum. No “surrender” occurred. Valpariso also uses this rite. The monks of Wyoming come from St. Elmo, MN. They are not outside the carmelite family.

Also, guys we need to be a little more conciliatory about barbs towards the SSPX, ALWAYS, but especially in light of the recent actions of His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI.

I am a novas ordo catholic who loves the mass in english. The expression of the Latin mass has made me realise something important however, the mass is not for us, rather it is for God…who I believe speaks latin fluently

“Be kind to everyone for they are fighting a hard battle”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I am not certain that you understand what happened in 1973. In Fact, the carmelites allowed their Mass to fall into disuse in favor of the Paul VI mass. That being said however, there have always existed, including in ISRAEL, monestaries that continued to use and STILL use the Missale Carmelitarum. No “surrender” occurred. Valpariso also uses this rite. The monks of Wyoming come from St. Elmo, MN. They are not outside the carmelite family.

Hmmm, seeing that I am a Carmelite and not only am I in a house of studies with Carmelite professors but there is also a work on the Orders of the Religious Rites. All of these agree that we have surrendered the Rite to Rome.

The group in Wyoming left the St. Elmo group when it became affiliated with the O.Carm., the group in Wyoming is outside of the offical Carmelite family in that it is not a part of either the O.Carm. nor of the OCD. They are formed under the local bishop.

 

[carmelaltarboy]

Hmmm, seeing that I am a Carmelite and not only am I in a house of studies with Carmelite professors but there is also a work on the Orders of the Religious Rites. All of these agree that we have surrendered the Rite to Rome.

The group in Wyoming left the St. Elmo group when it became affiliated with the O.Carm., the group in Wyoming is outside of the offical Carmelite family in that it is not a part of either the O.Carm. nor of the OCD. They are formed under the local bishop.

True true

 

[simon_op]

There is a convent of Cistercian Fathers in my neighbour and they celebrate one Latin Mass every day - the very first one in the morning. It is their conventual mass.

 

[Cloisters]

On this subject I live in Nashville, TN and we have an order of Dominican Nuns here who dress in the old style habits and such. I’ve heard on Ave Maria radio before that they are considered very traditional. Would anyone know if they use the Latin Mass and such?

Technically speaking, the Dominican Congregation of St. Cecilia is comprised of Sisters following the Rule of the Third Order of St. Dominic Regular. Since they make simple vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, they are “Sisters” and not “nuns.” Nuns live in monasteries, and make “heavier” solemn vows.

The Nashville Dominicans use Latin in some of their prayers, like the Latin Salve Procession at night, which is longer on Saturday night. They, however, do not have the Latin Mass, which I think is a pity.

One thing I find annoying about their congregation is the fact that they force the sisters to take communion in the hand, because they teach the children in their schools to do the same. I object to that.

Otherwise, I support them. They had good leadership at a time when the other orders were tossing the habit. Their contemplative lifestyle helped them navigate the tempest in the wake of Vatican II.

nashvilledominican.org/

Blessings,
Cloisters

 

[zaphod119]

The Mass and most of the Divine Office at the Cistercian Abbey of Our Lady of Spring Bank are in Latin. The Mass is Novus Ordo with Cistercian Usage and east facing (ad orientem/back to the congregation). The Liturgy is celebrated simply with dignity:wave:

 

[SRLAUREL]

Of course, that just leads into the question of whether those who attend Novus Ordo Missae are “traditional” or not.

There is no question. The NO mass is normative, meaning the norm by which liturgy is measured in the Roman tradition. That makes it traditional, handed on officially by the Church in response to Vatican II, also traditional in the fullest sense. I agree with Brother, that the term traditional should not be co-opted in the way that has been done in earlier posts. If something is handed down by the Church as a piece of her normative belief or praxis it traditional.

 

[carmelaltarboy]

There is no question. The NO mass is normative, meaning the norm by which liturgy is measured in the Roman tradition. That makes it traditional, handed on officially by the Church in response to Vatican II, also traditional in the fullest sense. I agree with Brother, that the term traditional should not be co-opted in the way that has been done in earlier posts. If something is handed down by the Church as a piece of her normative belief or praxis it traditional.

I believe the underlying unspoke current with regards to “traditional” or not, you almost touched upon. In truth, I believe the reason that many hold on to latin has to do with the fact that it was NOT excluded as a result of Vatican II. Instead, many with an agenda sought to choke Latin out of the mass entirely, which as a result of the changes being made by the current pontiff, are refuted. This arguement reminds me of Saint Paul (don’t you think it is interesting that this is his year in the church?) Take from the old and the new…

The difficult part of our catholic life is that we have so many sources of “truth”; from documents and bishops, to synods and popes. That being said, however, is not the raccolta as good as the book of blessings? What about how the councils of Trent and Vatican II “seem” to be in opposition to each other?

I for one look to the pope in all matters. By clinging to the head of the Church, that is truly how we will remain “traditional”. Unfortunately, people have co-opted the “traditional” with agendas. It is to that end that I believe these somewhat misguided people are immersed.

They see unorthodox and therefore cling to anything they “know” to be orthodox…even to an unorthodox degree. I think that as an act of charity we need to be mindful that these people have been wronged by many a priest, bishop, as well as the Jesuit Mass of the 70’s (I trust we all have a sense of humor).

 

[Thomas_Francis]

Just to update the info on this thread-

As per UNIVERSAE ECCLESIAE:

The Rites of Religious Orders
34. The use of the liturgical books proper to the Religious Orders which were in effect in 1962 is permitted.

 

[Nils]

There are some groups here in Europe also. We have dominicans (they are not official though, they also had to add a cross to the chest of their habit) in France, both male and female. I also heard of a group that lives very close to the traditional Jesuit spirituality in Germany.

Apart from the Tridentine Mass, what would you like to fill your life with? Knowing this would make it a lot easier to help…

 

[Brendan]

The Benedictines at the Clear Creek Abbey in Hurlbert, OK use the 1962 Missal pretty much exclusively.

The Office is also chanted in Latin.

clearcreekmonks.org/liturgy.html

( I get my rosaries from there )

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Just to update the info on this thread-

As per UNIVERSAE ECCLESIAE:

This depends on the approval of the superior and/or constitutions.

It does not give any sort of blanket approval to religious priests to celebrate their rite without approval.