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Richardols
Guest
If you don’t know that they are actually planning to sue, then don’t imply that they are. Your imagination isn’t evidence.
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Richardols
Guest
oat soda:
Think what you will, their continual efforts at “Catholic sheep-stealing” is the work of Satan, not of God IMO.
This division I feel? Didn’t you read my post #10 above? Do you think that there is no factual basis for what I said, only my emotional feeling? If you want, I’ll provide more of their false doctrines tht contradict the Truth that the Church teaches.
He didn’t include anything about their luring people away from His truths.
You are entirely wrong and don’t seem to have any idea of the great good our Church does.
Nonsense. Why are you denigrating the work of the great majority of faithful priests and laymen who are promoting the teachings of ourt Church and living out their faiths? Why extol the efforts of anti-Catholics? Why focus only on a small number of dissidents?
K
kmktexas
Guest
Richardols,
While your words are blunt
you are putting into words an unease I have been feeling lately about the Evangelical community. They are “on fire for Christ” and that is a very good thing. However, their main tactic, especially with Catholics, is to sow seeds of doubt. This tactic is not of God. This tactic is of the devil. The Father of Lies and that includes twisting the truth and bending the teachings of the Catholic Church in order to confuse vulnerable Catholics.When pressed, many Evangelicals will admit that ther is a huge percentage of those who back slide after “converting” to a non-Catholic Christian denomination. I really believe they have been taught to doubt and as soon as they encounter a troubling teaching, they jump again.
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Richardols
Guest
Absolutely!
I could not agree more. These people are not irenic. Though they can make some common cause with us on a few issues, they are basucally against us. Right after John Paul II’s death, several Evangelical websites encouraged their people to use the occasion to show Catholics that they are not saved by a Pope or a priest, but by Jesus Christ and that they should do what they could “to lead Catholics to Christ.” So much for Catholics and Evangelicals marching arm in arm.
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Richardols
Guest
Thank you for your support. The trouble with their “being on fire for Christ” is that they are on fire for a singularly “personal relationship” with Christ that eschews any role for a Church. They are, in the main, believers in “me and my Bible and the Holy Spirit.”Richardols,
While your words are blunt
When pressed, many Evangelicals will admit that ther is a huge percentage of those who back slide after “converting” to a non-Catholic Christian denomination. I really believe they have been taught to doubt and as soon as they encounter a troubling teaching, they jump again.
And I wholly agree with your assessment that their sowing seeds of doubt in Catholics and deliberate twisting and misreading of our doctrines to confuse Catholics can only be of Satan.
Why lie if they have the truth? I haven’t hear of any Catholic apologist who lies about non-Catholic religions so as to convince people to come to Catholicism.
T
thann
Guest
My son plans (hopes, prays) to attend the Air Force Academy. This has been a most interesting discussion. I had wondered about faith on campus. He is a very devout orthodox Catholic and may find it difficult to “keep his faith to himself.” But he can learn, and do what Saint Francis said: Preach the Gospel always; when necessary use words."
'thann
'thann
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Richardols
Guest
Be sure he doesn’t participate in any “friendly inter-faith discussions” or any “friendly non-denominational Bible studies.” The Evangelicals have lots of tricks with which to try to sow doubt. Not that I’d think that your son is gullible in any way, but even defending the Faith in such contexts means falling for their blandishments to “reason together.”
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grotto
Guest
Air Force Religious “pressure” - I think not! Serving in the Air Force does not interfere with practicing our Faith - it is supported. I know that an airman may not conduct him or herself in an argumentative way, disrupting the military mission on duty or fueling animosity and enmity. That is simply conduct “unbecoming” and probably cause for other discipline procedures. Every AFB has a chapel that is prepared for religious use including Chaplains - Catholic and Protestant. If there isn’t an Air Force Catholic Chaplain assigned, the Diocese will provide a Priest for the folks. When Catholics are using the chapel - it is arranged with the Crucifix prominent, the altar, beautiful statue of Our Blessed Mother, St. Joseph, Child Jesus, and quite often St. Michael has been provided. It becomes the parish and provides for religious education and preparation for the Sacraments. I hope I have said enough positive things to correct the negative impression of Air Force Religious “pressure”. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14_1_32.gif
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thann
Guest
I agree on this, although he is quite skilled at apologetics (they actually teach apologetics in his school!), better than I am, and much more secure in his faith than nearly everyone I know.
Still, this is a time in life when kids are tempted in various ways, so I am sure he could fall prey to folks just waiting to take advantage of a homesick kid. That’s what a mom’s prayers are for!
At any rate, he still has a couple of years before he leaves home, and by that time maybe some of this will have been sorted out.
'thann
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marcadam
Guest
This isn’t solely from his own imagination. There is reason to believe that such a suit could be brought in the near future based on the past actions of these groups, especially the ACLU. Tad sensitive there, ain’cha?BobCatholic:
If you don’t know that they are actually planning to sue, then don’t imply that they are. Your imagination isn’t evidence.
Was the original statement hyperbolic? Sure, but the sentiment is based in 100% fact: their view of religion is tantamount to hatred, and they have been ever moving to erase all evidence of religion from every aspect of public life. By simple extrapolation, one can see them encroaching on the military. Witness their recent persecution of the Boy Scouts especially in relation to military bases. Also witness police and fire chaplains being swiftly disbanded in California. If the doctrines evangelicals spout qualify them for “team Satan,” as you have said, surely the folks Bob mentions qualify in spades.
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Richardols
Guest
You are speaking of the ACLU, I presume. People for the American Way have numerous Christians as members.
Well, time will tell if his notion becomes true or not.
Okay. A fair enough opinion.
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Trelow
Guest
But they believe that we are going to hell, they actually give enough or a wooie to try and save us, as wrong as they may be.
The only reason they don’t have the truth, is because Catholics are so dang indifferent and don’t care to evangelize them.
Separate the sinner from the sin. take up their actions, but spread the right gospel. CONVERT THEM! Then they will be our the side of Truth!
Piss-poor Catholics are the only reason there are anti-Catholics.
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Richardols
Guest
Easier said than done. Karl Keating and other apologists have written about how resistant they are to conversion.
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Trelow
Guest
I know. Took years for it to take on me.
They honestly think they are doing the Lord’s will, I know, I’ve been there. I can think of six people off the top of my head that I had “saved” from Catholicism. Thank God my wife went back.
The thing that kep me away from the Chruch most of all? The politicians and people I met that were stinking liberals, no offence. But those who put moral issues on the back burner, the lady in teh suv wiht teh “My kid is an honor student at Sacred Heart” and the “I’m pro-choice and I vote” bumper stickers.
There are more of those kind of “Catholics” in the US than orthodox ones, that is why the US is largly anti-Catholic.
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maggiec
Guest
My daughter is stationed at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls. We have been there several times and have never seen/heard any problems about religious beliefs. They all seem to be very tolerant of each others beliefs. Don’t know about anywhere else, but I’m a little surprised that there is a problem.
maggiec
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leaner
Guest
This is my wife’s account, so please don’t blame her for the words you’re about to read. I also apologize in advance for the length of this post, but what I need to say can’t be summed up in a sentence.
**Full disclosure: **I am a Major in the USAF (Active Duty). I am also a graduate of the Air Force Academy, a member of the Class of 1994.
Considering the above, and without any evidence in this thread to the contrary, I believe I can (more than any other) speak on the issue of evangelism at the USAFA.
The Academy is by no means a perfect institution. Perhaps you’ve missed it, but this is just the latest in a string of scandals that have come out of an otherwise fine institution. The list has run the gamut from sexual harassment, cheating, drugs and drug dealing, to the current firestorm over evangelism. Despite this, my experience is that Academy graduates far and away exceed the standards of their peers at civilian institutions in honor, responsibility, loyalty, and achievement. It’s not the den of lying, cheating, misogynistic drug dealing evangelists that the press would have you believe. It’s a convenient ball of yarn for the press to play with, claw at, mostly because the standard of perfection it strives to achieve tends to work against it in the public press.
Yes, there are evangelicals at the Academy. No, they don’t corner people to make them listen to their word. I find the comments cited in the Yale report unsurprising but at the same time overblown. Take what you read with a grain of salt…these are professional officers in the military, subject to a lot (and I mean a LOT) of education about what is and what is NOT acceptable.
I have also seen the recent press regarding Capt Melinda Morton, a Lutheran chaplain at the Academy. I find her unprofessional behavior indicative of why she found herself without a job. The position she was serving in (executive officer to the ranking chaplain), the ability to keep the boss’s confidence to oneself is the minimum standard. Apparently, she can’t even do that–regardless of what she’s talking about, her credibility (in my eyes) is gone.
I attended a Jesuit high school before the Academy, so I was pretty well prepared for anything that an evangelical might throw at me. I was versed in the world’s major religions and the major schisms (is that the right word?) that make up the religion we call “Protestants”. Despite all of this, I never met an evangelist who tried to convert me. We had Protestants of all kinds, Mormons, Catholics, and Muslims in my squadron. Any discussions we had about religion tended toward the polite and informational, not shouting matches over who’s going to hell and who’s saved. Maybe I was lucky, but I think my experience was typical. Oh and I was one of those apathetic Catholics you speak of. I attended church (like most of my peers) during my freshman year because it was the one place that the upperclassmen would leave you alone. It was a safe zone–kind of ironic considering the current dilemma. It wasn’t until I met my wife that I returned to my religion in any active way.
I can’t say that things haven’t significantly changed over the last ten years. But I would be very surprised to see such a combative atmosphere over religion emerge. There’s too high a turnover rate of personnel and too many buffers (both by design and by rule) to prevent this. And I can’t see any Catholic chaplains allowing evangelists to harm their flock (when I was there, the ranking chaplain was a Catholic priest). If there was something going on, the Catholic chaplain would have known, and done something about it. And I certainly can’t see any Catholic priest throwing in behind such a crusade, if you will.
I can only advise you all to read carefully what you read and consider the sources. Anyone who says they don’t have an agenda isn’t telling you the truth. And don’t expect anything to be forthcoming from the Academy defending themselves. They don’t work that way, which is why they’re such good whipping posts for the press.
I ask the readers of this post to consider that the USAFA has a long tradition of leaders both in and out of the military. And an institution such as this will change over the years, but its basic tenets tend to remain the same. Its foundation of Honor, Service, Duty, and Loyalty will be challenged, but will not be forsaken.
For those with children considering attendance, contact the Air Force Academy and request contact information for the Academy Liason Officer in your area. These are alumni who volunteer to represent the Academy. Ask them face to face about this and see for yourself. Or visit the Academy and find out in person. It is an American institution and open (to some degree) to its citizens.
If you’ve persisted in reading this far, thank you for your time.
**Full disclosure: **I am a Major in the USAF (Active Duty). I am also a graduate of the Air Force Academy, a member of the Class of 1994.
Considering the above, and without any evidence in this thread to the contrary, I believe I can (more than any other) speak on the issue of evangelism at the USAFA.
The Academy is by no means a perfect institution. Perhaps you’ve missed it, but this is just the latest in a string of scandals that have come out of an otherwise fine institution. The list has run the gamut from sexual harassment, cheating, drugs and drug dealing, to the current firestorm over evangelism. Despite this, my experience is that Academy graduates far and away exceed the standards of their peers at civilian institutions in honor, responsibility, loyalty, and achievement. It’s not the den of lying, cheating, misogynistic drug dealing evangelists that the press would have you believe. It’s a convenient ball of yarn for the press to play with, claw at, mostly because the standard of perfection it strives to achieve tends to work against it in the public press.
Yes, there are evangelicals at the Academy. No, they don’t corner people to make them listen to their word. I find the comments cited in the Yale report unsurprising but at the same time overblown. Take what you read with a grain of salt…these are professional officers in the military, subject to a lot (and I mean a LOT) of education about what is and what is NOT acceptable.
I have also seen the recent press regarding Capt Melinda Morton, a Lutheran chaplain at the Academy. I find her unprofessional behavior indicative of why she found herself without a job. The position she was serving in (executive officer to the ranking chaplain), the ability to keep the boss’s confidence to oneself is the minimum standard. Apparently, she can’t even do that–regardless of what she’s talking about, her credibility (in my eyes) is gone.
I attended a Jesuit high school before the Academy, so I was pretty well prepared for anything that an evangelical might throw at me. I was versed in the world’s major religions and the major schisms (is that the right word?) that make up the religion we call “Protestants”. Despite all of this, I never met an evangelist who tried to convert me. We had Protestants of all kinds, Mormons, Catholics, and Muslims in my squadron. Any discussions we had about religion tended toward the polite and informational, not shouting matches over who’s going to hell and who’s saved. Maybe I was lucky, but I think my experience was typical. Oh and I was one of those apathetic Catholics you speak of. I attended church (like most of my peers) during my freshman year because it was the one place that the upperclassmen would leave you alone. It was a safe zone–kind of ironic considering the current dilemma. It wasn’t until I met my wife that I returned to my religion in any active way.
I can’t say that things haven’t significantly changed over the last ten years. But I would be very surprised to see such a combative atmosphere over religion emerge. There’s too high a turnover rate of personnel and too many buffers (both by design and by rule) to prevent this. And I can’t see any Catholic chaplains allowing evangelists to harm their flock (when I was there, the ranking chaplain was a Catholic priest). If there was something going on, the Catholic chaplain would have known, and done something about it. And I certainly can’t see any Catholic priest throwing in behind such a crusade, if you will.
I can only advise you all to read carefully what you read and consider the sources. Anyone who says they don’t have an agenda isn’t telling you the truth. And don’t expect anything to be forthcoming from the Academy defending themselves. They don’t work that way, which is why they’re such good whipping posts for the press.
I ask the readers of this post to consider that the USAFA has a long tradition of leaders both in and out of the military. And an institution such as this will change over the years, but its basic tenets tend to remain the same. Its foundation of Honor, Service, Duty, and Loyalty will be challenged, but will not be forsaken.
For those with children considering attendance, contact the Air Force Academy and request contact information for the Academy Liason Officer in your area. These are alumni who volunteer to represent the Academy. Ask them face to face about this and see for yourself. Or visit the Academy and find out in person. It is an American institution and open (to some degree) to its citizens.
If you’ve persisted in reading this far, thank you for your time.
C
Chris_Jacobsen
Guest
This is more evidence that the Federal Government is the enemy of God and of the American people. Yet, there are still those who think that there is something good and decent about groveling to the U.S. flag.
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leaner
Guest
Chris Jacobsen:
What I say to everyone who hates this country so much; Canada is that way…don’t let the purple mountains majesty hit you in the a$$ on the way out.
PS – this is “leaner”, not her DH
How incredibly wonderful and free you must feel to speak so colorfully about the liberties you enjoy. This is “evidence” of nothing but the media chewing on an institution that it knows will not strike back (because there’s no point in wrestling with a pig; nobody wins and the pig just gets muddy)
What I say to everyone who hates this country so much; Canada is that way…don’t let the purple mountains majesty hit you in the a$$ on the way out.
PS – this is “leaner”, not her DH
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La_Chiara
Guest
Most whistleblowers are viewed as “unprofessional” by their colleagues. You are entitled to see it as you do. But the very system that you unwaveringly approve of, serves to repress differences of opinion. Capt. Morton knew the price she would pay for speaking out and she has paid the price in terms of ending her military career. Indeed, the fact that she was the XO to the head chaplain affirms that she had inside knowledge that she knew to be contrary to the “official” press reports. Some see her as a whistleblower and admire her for her courage. Furthermore, just because you haven’t been proselytized by evangelicals in the Air Force or at the Air Force Academy doesn’t mean it doesn’t occur. If you didn’t experience the sexual harassment at the Air Force Academy that has been clearly proven, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to other women cadets there.
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