Religious Views on Lust

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meltzerboy

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Catholicism and apparently many forms of Protestantism view lust as sinful. Jesus says as much with respect to adultery. Mormonism has a similar view. So does Islam. And, according to my superficial reading, Hinduism and Buddhism likewise disapprove of lust as “sinful,” inasmuch as these religions believe in sin. But Judaism takes another stance. Lust is viewed as a natural emotion, not sinful per se. It is as natural as hunger, thirst, and sleep. Moreover, without it the species would not survive. Nonetheless, it comprises what is called the “evil inclination,” in that it has the possibility of being abused, just as hunger does. Therefore, while natural, it must be channeled and controlled, not by means of guilt, but by means of activities such as marriage (which should include but not be limited by lust), Torah study and prayer, work, charity, and so on. This sounds a little like Freud’s concept of sublimation. Regardless, I was wondering if there are any other religions that have a different take on lust, similar to that of Judaism or different from it, but not in line with Catholicism, Protestantism, Mormonism, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism. In addition, if any members are knowledgeable about the attitudes regarding lust in Buddhism or Hinduism, I would appreciate more information about this. I’m also interested in what Quakerism has to say about lust, as well as individual denominations of Protestantism. Thanks in advance for your replies.
 
meltzerboy said:
Catholicism and apparently many forms of Protestantism view lust as sinful. Jesus says as much with respect to adultery. Mormonism has a similar view. So does Islam. And, according to my superficial reading, Hinduism and Buddhism likewise disapprove of lust as “sinful,” inasmuch as these religions believe in sin. But Judaism takes another stance. Lust is viewed as a natural emotion, not sinful per se. It is as natural as hunger, thirst, and sleep. Moreover, without it the species would not survive. Nonetheless, it comprises what is called the “evil inclination,” in that it has the possibility of being abused, just as hunger does. Therefore, while natural, it must be channeled and controlled, not by means of guilt, but by means of activities such as marriage (which should include but not be limited by lust), Torah study and prayer, work, charity, and so on. This sounds a little like Freud’s concept of sublimation. Regardless, I was wondering if there are any other religions that have a different take on lust, similar to that of Judaism or different from it, but not in line with Catholicism, Protestantism, Mormonism, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism. In addition, if any members are knowledgeable about the attitudes regarding lust in Buddhism or Hinduism, I would appreciate more information about this. I’m also interested in what Quakerism has to say about lust, as well as individual denominations of Protestantism. Thanks in advance for your replies.
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It would be my opinion that you first define Lust as you see it before asking others…

The word lust is phonetically similar to the ancient Roman lustrum, which literally meant “purification”. This was the five-year cycle time for the ritual expiation of “sins” called the lustration as practiced in ancient Greek and Roman cultures, occasionally involving human sacrifice. Sexual intercourse was one of a list of sins requiring lustration. Another similar word existed in ancient Latin, lustratio.

The Seven Deadly Sins, written during the 5th century is a similar list of sins requiring expiation or forgiveness. These doctrines forbade even thoughts and desires for fornicatio (fornication), later generalized as luxuria (lust/lechery).The concept also was progressively embodied in debates about mandatory Clerical celibacy beginning in the 1st through 5th centuries and following. For example, Henry Charles Lea states that “Sixtus III barely admits that married persons can obtain eternal life” in his “Sacerdotal History of Christian Celibacy” . He also states, "Siricius and Innocent I ransacked the Gospels for texts of more than doubtful application with which to support the innovation of celibacy.

However, in the 11th to 15th centuries the northern European usage of the verb still meant simply “to please, delight;” or “pleasure”. A related form “lusty”, originally meant “joyful, merry” or “full of healthy vigor”.

The word “lust” began being used in the 16th century in the Protestant Reformation’s early non-Latin Bible translations. This is despite the fact that the original Koine Greek Bible has no single word that is uniquely translated as heterosexual lust.

What follow are definitions for Lust…
  1. intense sexual desire or appetite.
  2. uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite; lecherousness.
  3. a passionate or overmastering desire or craving (usually followed by for ): a lust for power.
  4. ardent enthusiasm; zest; relish: an enviable lust for life.
I looked in my Concordance and do not see the word Lust used by Jesus…

The word used in Matthew 5:28 is translated Lust but does not necessarily mean lust…It usually means desire…

1937 epithyméō (from 1909 /epí, “focused on” intensifying 2372 /thymós, “passionate desire”) – properly, to show focused passion as it aptly builds on (Gk epi, “upon”) what a person truly yearns for; to "greatly desire to do or have something – ‘to long for, to desire very much’ " (L & N, 1, 25.12).

I believe that you should define what you mean by Lust…
 
Melzerboy,

Perhaps you had better clarify what you mean by “lust.”

If by lust you simply mean sexual feelings, I think what you describe as the perspective of Judaism actually corresponds pretty well to the perspective of Catholicism, with the exception that marriage would not be an institution to control those passions if that’s what you mean but simply the natural, good context of them, at least in their explicitly sexual form as opposed to a “sublimated” yearning for unity with the Other which can apply to every other relationship in a non-sexual way. I did not realize, by the way, that the word “sublimation” was associated with Freud and I don’t know how different his concept was from the way I’ve heard the word used in the Catholic Church, often in connection with celibate vocations.

If by lust you mean what the Church generally means, the deliberate seeking emotional sexual pleasure outside the proper marital context, then we do have a disagreement.
 
CopticChristian said:
It would be my opinion that you first define Lust as you see it before asking others…

The word lust is phonetically similar to the ancient Roman lustrum, which literally meant “purification”. This was the five-year cycle time for the ritual expiation of “sins” called the lustration as practiced in ancient Greek and Roman cultures, occasionally involving human sacrifice. Sexual intercourse was one of a list of sins requiring lustration. Another similar word existed in ancient Latin, lustratio.

The Seven Deadly Sins, written during the 5th century is a similar list of sins requiring expiation or forgiveness. These doctrines forbade even thoughts and desires for fornicatio (fornication), later generalized as luxuria (lust/lechery).The concept also was progressively embodied in debates about mandatory Clerical celibacy beginning in the 1st through 5th centuries and following. For example, Henry Charles Lea states that “Sixtus III barely admits that married persons can obtain eternal life” in his “Sacerdotal History of Christian Celibacy” . He also states, "Siricius and Innocent I ransacked the Gospels for texts of more than doubtful application with which to support the innovation of celibacy.

However, in the 11th to 15th centuries the northern European usage of the verb still meant simply “to please, delight;” or “pleasure”. A related form “lusty”, originally meant “joyful, merry” or “full of healthy vigor”.

The word “lust” began being used in the 16th century in the Protestant Reformation’s early non-Latin Bible translations. This is despite the fact that the original Koine Greek Bible has no single word that is uniquely translated as heterosexual lust.

What follow are definitions for Lust…
  1. intense sexual desire or appetite.
  2. uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite; lecherousness.
  3. a passionate or overmastering desire or craving (usually followed by for ): a lust for power.
  4. ardent enthusiasm; zest; relish: an enviable lust for life.
I looked in my Concordance and do not see the word Lust used by Jesus…

The word used in Matthew 5:28 is translated Lust but does not necessarily mean lust…It usually means desire…

1937 epithyméō (from 1909 /epí, “focused on” intensifying 2372 /thymós, “passionate desire”) – properly, to show focused passion as it aptly builds on (Gk epi, “upon”) what a person truly yearns for; to "greatly desire to do or have something – ‘to long for, to desire very much’ " (L & N, 1, 25.12).

I believe that you should define what you mean by Lust…
Click to expand...
I’m defining lust as natural sexual desire, not only for one’s spouse but for other people outside of marriage, whether or not they are “taken.” However, one does not act on that desire. It is more than just looking and admiring, may involve lingering a bit, but less than behavior. The Jewish view is that it should be checked and controlled by various methods, so that it does not transform into behavior and also does not become addictive. That would be an abuse of the “evil inclination.” However, the desire itself, even beyond looking, is not regarded as sinful and one should not focus on feeling guilty about it, but rather on controlling it. Thanks for your comments.
 
Sam_777 said:
I do not think that is accurate to say since we have many hadiths encouraging that, and not to mention the 72 virgins in the Islamic paradise…
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Thank you for this information. How could I have forgotten about the 72 virgins? Is that really part of Islamic teaching?
 
Aelred_Minor said:
Melzerboy,

Perhaps you had better clarify what you mean by “lust.”

If by lust you simply mean sexual feelings, I think what you describe as the perspective of Judaism actually corresponds pretty well to the perspective of Catholicism, with the exception that marriage would not be an institution to control those passions if that’s what you mean but simply the natural, good context of them, at least in their explicitly sexual form as opposed to a “sublimated” yearning for unity with the Other which can apply to every other relationship in a non-sexual way. I did not realize, by the way, that the word “sublimation” was associated with Freud and I don’t know how different his concept was from the way I’ve heard the word used in the Catholic Church, often in connection with celibate vocations.

If by lust you mean what the Church generally means, the deliberate seeking emotional sexual pleasure outside the proper marital context, then we do have a disagreement.
Click to expand...
I doubt Freud’s concept of sublimation bears much resemblance to its meaning in the Catholic Church. I defined what I mean by lust in my response to CopticChristian. It’s not deliberate but natural and involuntary, and does not involve behavior. Thank you for your reply.
 
meltzerboy said:
Thank you for this information. How could I have forgotten about the 72 virgins? Is that really part of Islamic teaching?
Click to expand...
1) Musnad Ahmed Hadith #10511:
“The Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him said that the lowest status of the person in Paradise has seven degrees and he is in the sixth one and above him is the seventh, and he has 300 servants, and every day 300 golden food trays served for him, in each tray a food color other than the other one and its delicious from its beginning till its end , and he says O Lord, if you authorize me to feed and give drinks to the people of Paradise it will not reduce from my food anything, and he has of the wives 72 Hours(Virgins) other than his earthy wives, and each Hour(Virgin) has a seat (place) of one earth mile.”

**مسند أحمد
** قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏إن أدنى أهل الجنة منزلة إن له لسبع درجات وهو على السادسة وفوقه السابعة وإن له لثلاث مائة خادم ‏ ‏ويغدى عليه ويراح كل يوم ثلاث مائة صحفة ‏ ‏ولا أعلمه إلا قال ‏ ‏من ذهب في كل صحفة لون ليس في الأخرى وإنه ليلذ أوله كما يلذ آخره وإنه ليقول يا رب لو أذنت لي لأطعمت أهل الجنة وسقيتهم لم ينقص مما عندي شيء وإن له من الحور العين لاثنين وسبعين زوجة سوى أزواجه من الدنيا وإن الواحدة منهن ليأخذ مقعدها قدر ميل من الأرض ‏
​

(A)

2) Sunan Altermizy Hadith #2485:
“The Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him said that the lowest person in Paradise has 80,000 servants and 72 wives, and a dome from pearl, peridot, and ruby as the distance between the Jabia city and Sanaa city.”

**سنن الترمذي
** قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أدنى أهل الجنة الذي له ثمانون ألف خادم واثنتان وسبعون زوجة وتنصب له ‏ ‏قبة ‏ ‏من لؤلؤ وزبرجد وياقوت كما بين ‏ ‏الجابية ‏ ‏إلى ‏ ‏صنعاء ‏
​
(A)

**
And here are the official commentaries by the 4 authentic Islamic commentators:**

تفسير ابن كثير:
“قوله تعالى كذلك” وزوجناهم بحور عين " أي هذا العطاء مع ما قد منحناهم من الزوجات الحسان الحور العين اللاتي" لم يطمثهن إنس قبلهم ولا جان"

تفسير الجلالين:
“كذلك” يقدر قبله الأمر “وزوجناهم” من التزويج أو قرناهم “بحور عين” بنساء بيض واسعات الأعين حسانها

تفسير الطبري:
القول في تأويل قوله تعالى : { كذلك وزوجناهم بحور عين } يقول تعالى ذكره : كما أعطينا هؤلاء المتقين في الآخرة من الكرامة بإدخالناهم الجنات , وإلباسناهم فيها السندس والإستبرق , كذلك أكرمناهم بأن زوجناهم أيضا فيها حورا من النساء , ومن النقيات البياض , واحدتهن : حوراء , وكان مجاهد يقول في معنى الحور , ما : 24111 - حدثني به محمد بن عمرو , قال : ثنا أبو عاصم , قال : ثنا عيسى ; وحدثني الحارث , قال : ثنا الحسن , قال : ثنا ورقاء جميعا , عن ابن أبي نجيح , عن مجاهد , قوله : { وزوجناهم بحور عين } قال : أنكحناهم حورا. قال : والحور : اللاتي يحار فيهن الطرف باد مخ سوقهن من وراء ثيابهن , ويرى الناظر وجهه في كبد إحداهن كالمرآة من رقة الجلد , وصفاء اللون . وهذا الذي قاله مجاهد من أن الحور إنما معناها : أنه يحار فيها الطرف , قول لا معنى له في كلام العرب ; لأن الحور إنما هو جمع حوراء , كالحمر جمع حمراء , والسود : جمع سوداء , والحوراء إنما هي فعلاء من الحور وهو نقاء البياض , كما قيل للنقي البياض من الطعام الحواري

تفسير القرطبي:
والحور : البيض ; في قول قتادة والعامة , جمع حوراء . والحوراء : البيضاء التي يرى ساقها من وراء ثيابها , ويرى الناظر وجهه في كعبها ; كالمرآة من دقة الجلد وبضاضة البشرة وصفاء اللون .
​
 
meltzerboy said:
But Judaism takes another stance. Lust is viewed as a natural emotion, not sinful per se. It is as natural as hunger, thirst, and sleep. Moreover, without it the species would not survive. .
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This defines normal sexual desire, not lust.

the definition you apply to Judaism, and presumably hold yourself, is not that held by the Catholic Church. Lust is not normal natural sexual desire hardwired into species to promote a natural good, procreation. Lust, which by the way is defined in the commandments handed first to the Jewish people, is the Disordered desire aroused and leading to disordered actions toward the wrong subject at the wrong time and place by the wrong person.

Please give a reliable source where disordered sexual desire and use of sexual power is not considered sinful in classic Jewish teaching.

The Church condemns lust, disordered desire for and use of sex. She does not condemn the normal natural power used in the manner designed by the Creator, as he reveals in the Jewish text of Genesis, between one man and one woman united in marriage for the purpose of unity that is an image God’s love, and for procreation, that is, sharing in his creative action.
 
I suppose we would do well to realize the devils aim is not the light, for his intention is to bring the abandonment of charity, and love of sisters and brothers among each other. Should he succeed, then he has prevailed in doing a great deal of harm, if not total destruction of the Soul.

True perfection consists in the love of God…and of our Neighbor. The closer we move to perfecting these two commandments the closer to perfection we draw in unity to the Kingdom of God.

Truth be told, the entire Constitution of the CC is nothing but a means to enable us to do this more perfectly.

This mutual love is of utmost importance, and one would do well never to forget it. For this is how distraction occurs and peace of mind is lost. Ignorance of our purpose in the world often bring about vain thoughts. The solution is to seek God through constant prayer thus the guidence of the Holy Spirit and those whom He so helpfully placed inbetween to interceed.

There’s a point when man/woman can behold one and other and be pleased by physical appearence. To take this into the realm of sexual fantasy is error on top of error, to act off these feelings is of greater error. For there is no self-respect nor respect for others to any degree. This is pleasure for self-gratification, by instant gratification, which in itself is a selfish act. Truth is Good/Evil war with each other in the mind, and evil prevails. I would imagine human actions in this realm amuse the devil. For he found man inferior to begin with, because of the flesh. Thus to offend God through the flesh must be of great joy to him.

In this state of mind we are doing absolutely nothing to defend ourself against the snares of the devil, which easily overcome and possibly destroy. Should we find ourselves in this state of mind, then we should take every opportunity in reparation to the Lord, and to make Our Lady and the Saints our intercessor, so that they may do battle for you.

Truth is at every point in our life it is necessary for our help to come from God. Be it a hill or valley for each brings its snares. How often to hear the folly…“Thanks God for the help, I can take it from here” …only till the next time the magnitude of reality overwhelms the self.

Its not astonishing the things done by the soul in a state or mortal sin, as is the things not done by the soul. For this “is” the progression of evil, where it gains steam and becomes completely in essense a runaway train.

IMHO man should see humility in this aspect, which becomes a constant reminder of the vanity which is not of Gods Kingdom, nor could it ever be.

Truth is we are just passing through this realm. To see it correctly is in truth that we are in “exile” or “the Valley of Tears”. Just as the Salva Regina states. The wisdom of that prayer cannot be underestimated. Thus time is nothing more than a tool and a test.

The question then must become, who shall pass the test and how?? To grasp at every pleasure of this physical world, as not miss something in your short duration called life. Is without a doubt the test, and full of folly. To pass the test you must seek the Kingdom of God first and always, for otherwise failure is certain.

Prayer and constant “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven” Its the only possible solution and correct path to see the invisable Kingdom before you.

Peace
 
see thread: “Who is Jewish and has knowledge of Judaism” by followingtheway

Hi Meltzerboy - some information for you to view.

Should be under: The Birth of the Good Inclination: In rabbinic texts, the distinction between childhood and young adulthood is the birth of the yetzer hatov, the good inclination.

Also, some additional information for you to read up on: Parshios Netzavim & Vayeilech

One Teaspoon, Or Two? In Sha’ar HaGilgulim, Rabbi Chaim Vital wrote the following:

Although I understand the post you wrote - it maybe that it clashes with the concepts of Christian thought on the subject. After you read what I listed then you might turn to Luke 11: The Lamp of the Body, it is kind of geared in that direction. There’s a thought about how far evil or to what depth it will reach within us, as everything (thoughts and action) can get twisted around - an example of this: when swimming up to the surface of the water the light can really be the bottom and not the top surface - if that concept is explainable. For the swimmer, it looks like he’s heading toward the surface, but really isn’t.

Concept on this: The Talmud teaches that if one sins and repeats it, the sin becomes “permissible” to him (Sotah 22a). It has just lost its severity. He wasn’t struck by lightning. Nothing seems to have changed; the world goes on as usual. R. Yisrael Salanter, one of the great scholars and ethicists of the 19th Century, commented on the above passage: Say one commits the same sin a third time? What then? Why then it becomes a mitzvah! We get so used to ourselves and our behavior – not to mention our need for self- justification – that we will no longer see any wrong in our failings. That angry streak, cynicism, loose tongue etc. – they’re all necessary to stand up for our rights, hold our own, get on with our friends etc. Slowly, our evil inclination whittles us down, and what was once unimaginable and unthinkable becomes routine and unthinking.

Link (torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter4-2.html)
 
meltzerboy said:
I’m defining lust as natural sexual desire, not only for one’s spouse but for other people outside of marriage, whether or not they are “taken.” However, one does not act on that desire. It is more than just looking and admiring, may involve lingering a bit, but less than behavior. The Jewish view is that it should be checked and controlled by various methods, so that it does not transform into behavior and also does not become addictive. That would be an abuse of the “evil inclination.” However, the desire itself, even beyond looking, is not regarded as sinful and one should not focus on feeling guilty about it, but rather on controlling it. Thanks for your comments.
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All lust, as defined by the term “concupiscence”, is considered to be disordered desire for something good. It can be lust for sex, food, wealth, possessions, glory, etc.
 
fhansen said:
All lust, as defined by the term “concupiscence”, is considered to be disordered desire for something good. It can be lust for sex, food, wealth, possessions, glory, etc.
Click to expand...
Right and very true. Lust can be for sex, food,wealth, possessions and also glory and power. Absolute power destroys, absolutely, always.

However, here’s a point, and a true story, I like to shop till I drop - and I like to walk around looking into various shops or just like to walk around. If I like to look with the understanding that I don’t have to buy, I have a certain amount of restraint- its not an obsession. There’s like a stop button in me that tells me that I don’t have to buy everything in sight. (hypothetically speaking)

We have the ability to stop ourselves from overdoing it where it doesn’t become an obsession to the point of being out of control but there are a few exceptions to every rule. You have to know your own limitations and this is something that is actually written as to cause someone to stumble by putting things in front of him or even to put these objects in front of ourselves, as to test our own strength and weakness. Even though we have the ability to say 'no" and stand firm in our convictions - we (also) have the ability to be weak on occasion. One thing leads to another.

We are not made100% perfect and there will be times when we will sin - as I hope they are in small things that will not be carried into the bigger things - as confession is away for us to stop the small temptation into becoming larger ones, again - most small temptation start out this way, but its how we say “no” to them. I’ve seen this happen all to often - it depends upon our own relationship with God and how we reach out to Him for that extra support.

You have to be very strong in today’s world …there was a discussion on another forum that touched on the passage verse, “Break 1 commandment = break them all” based off of “Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” - Matt 5:19

Mary
 
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