Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

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fathercome said:
Then, no, the same thing is not happening in Mass that Baha’is claim happened with the coming of Baha’u’llah.
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Jesus comes to us at each and every Mass, fathercome. I wouldn’t expect you to know that, since you are not Catholic, but I think that if you are conversing on a Catholic forum with Catholics you ought to be at least familiar with some of our teachings, yes?
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Religions do not all contain the same message, they contradict, bahai cannot unite islam and Christianity because both say things the other cannot believe. We say Jesus Christ is our creator, the ultimate judge, the one whom has all power in heaven and earth (this is what the new testament says). The Quran denies this. Bahai will ignore the differences in order to maintain that they have united these divided religions, seemingly unaware of the importance of these differences in teh first place which define these religions. The statement that bahai has united all faiths is the equivelent to saying Kingdom hearts has united the entire disney universe, snippets and edits taken selectively from the source material to create something new and apparently bold.
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This is a misunderstanding about the Baha’i Faith. Baha’is don’t ignore the differences, the Baha’i embrace the differences. Baha’u’llah embraces the difference by rising “above” it. Which makes sense if you think about it. Only God can come down and bring together the differences of Islam and Christianity, because it was the same God who brought both Christianity and Islam. Baha’is do not take selections from each religion and put together. Rather, the Baha’i Revelation is an entirely new phenomenon independent of both Christianity and Islam. This is why I am insisting that the claim of Baha’u’llah cannot be easily understood from the contexts of both the Bible and Qur’an without transcending BOTH of them.

Baha’u’llah claims to have brought about the appearance of One who begot Jesus, at the same time as One who sent the Qur’an to Muhammad.

This is a transcendence over both Christianity and Islam.
 
PRmerger said:
Jesus comes to us at each and every Mass, fathercome. I wouldn’t expect you to know that, since you are not Catholic, but I think that if you are conversing on a Catholic forum with Catholics you ought to be at least familiar with some of our teachings, yes?
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So Jesus comes to you at Mass, through whom you recognize the Father. It seems the Father is a distant figure in Christianity, because it is only through Jesus that you recognize and experience the Father, is this correct? Do Catholics ever experience the Father directly, or do Catholics only experience the Holy Spirit and Jesus directly? IS it the Holy Spirit that comes to you at Mass, or is it the Holy Spirit? OR is it both? OR is Holy Spirit just a reference to the spirit of Jesus?
 
fathercome said:
This is a misunderstanding about the Baha’i Faith. Baha’is don’t ignore the differences, the Baha’i embrace the differences. Baha’u’llah embraces the difference by rising “above” it. Which makes sense if you think about it. Only God can come down and bring together the differences of Islam and Christianity, because it was the same God who brought both Christianity and Islam. Baha’is do not take selections from each religion and put together. Rather, the Baha’i Revelation is an entirely new phenomenon independent of both Christianity and Islam. This is why I am insisting that the claim of Baha’u’llah cannot be easily understood from the contexts of both the Bible and Qur’an without transcending BOTH of them.

Baha’u’llah claims to have brought about the appearance of One who begot Jesus, at the same time as One who sent the Qur’an to Muhammad.

This is a transcendence over both Christianity and Islam.
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Im my experience bahai often ignore the points, the specific contradictions which can be cited. That is the quran would indicate Christ was a mere creature who in no way was equal to God. Yet in the new testament Jesus Christ is not only our creator who is worshipped by his apostles, he is the one to whom forgiveness of sins is due to (Which the Quran says can only come from allah), he is the one salvation belongs to and that all judgement belongs to the son. Bahai do tend to gloss over these differences and not address tehm and still claim that there is no contradiction, they only do that by ignoring the contradictions.

That being said I disagree with this idea of “rising above difference.” What does that mean exactly? That unity is more important than truth? The contempt Christ and the early church had for the paganism around them would suggest to me that truth is worth more than unity for its own sake. What difference are we supposed to rise up and over? Should I expect the bahai to accept me worshipping Christ as God whom you view as a mere manifestation who is not God? Should you expect me to not take issue when you deny who I view as God as God? So what is this transcendence other than ignoring the differences and claiming that there is something else?

Simply making a claim doesn’t mean I should take anyone seriously. There have been a lot of attempts by many people to get the quran and bible, and Christianity and islam to be in harmony and usually they do this at the expense of one ideology of the other. Christ is not God, Christ is God, Christ did not die, Christ did die.
 
fathercome said:
So Jesus comes to you at Mass, through whom you recognize the Father. It seems the Father is a distant figure in Christianity, because it is only through Jesus that you recognize and experience the Father, is this correct? Do Catholics ever experience the Father directly, or do Catholics only experience the Holy Spirit and Jesus directly? IS it the Holy Spirit that comes to you at Mass, or is it the Holy Spirit? OR is it both? OR is Holy Spirit just a reference to the spirit of Jesus?
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If we accept your idea that the father is distant in christianity. He is even more distant in bahai. For God in Christianity is omnipresent, he is everywhere and has acted personally within history by his son and miracles. What has the bahai God wrought? He sent basically some angels and gave a virgin a child, thats about the amount of direct influence the bahai want to attribute to their God. Maybe creation can be added but the bahai God on the whole is a near deistic deity who prefers naturalism, who is so to speak not presiding over his creation and the destiny of men.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
That being said I disagree with this idea of “rising above difference.” What does that mean exactly? That unity is more important than truth? The contempt Christ and the early church had for the paganism around them would suggest to me that truth is worth more than unity for its own sake. What difference are we supposed to rise up and over? Should I expect the bahai to accept me worshipping Christ as God whom you view as a mere manifestation who is not God? Should you expect me to not take issue when you deny who I view as God as God? So what is this transcendence other than ignoring the differences and claiming that there is something else?

Simply making a claim doesn’t mean I should take anyone seriously. There have been a lot of attempts by many people to get the quran and bible, and Christianity and islam to be in harmony and usually they do this at the expense of one ideology of the other. Christ is not God, Christ is God, Christ did not die, Christ did die.
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Please, let’s just agree right now that you will always not take what I am saying seriously. Let’s just try to understand what it is I am saying only. Your comments above, as well as Steve and PR, demonstrate to me that you don’t understand it yet. I don’t mean believe, I only mean understand. I hope and pray that you remain Catholics and Orthodox for all eternity.

By Transcending, I mean that Baha’u’llah transcends Christ and Muhammad and Moses as follows:

He claims to have been the One who spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush.
He claims to have sent the Qur’an to Muhammad.
He claims to have been the Father of Jesus.

This is transcendence that I am referring to.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
If we accept your idea that the father is distant in christianity. He is even more distant in bahai. For God in Christianity is omnipresent, he is everywhere and has acted personally within history by his son and miracles. What has the bahai God wrought? He sent basically some angels and gave a virgin a child, thats about the amount of direct influence the bahai want to attribute to their God. Maybe creation can be added but the bahai God on the whole is a near deistic deity who prefers naturalism, who is so to speak not presiding over his creation and the destiny of men.
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Not at all. For Baha’is the Day of the Encounter with the SELF OF GOD has arrived!! Baha’u’llah says “I am the Father”, not that you can get to the Father through me!

Accuse me of BLASPHEMY! God doesn’t exist! Baha’u’llah has appeared!
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Im my experience bahai often ignore the points, the specific contradictions which can be cited. That is the quran would indicate Christ was a mere creature who in no way was equal to God. Yet in the new testament Jesus Christ is not only our creator who is worshipped by his apostles, he is the one to whom forgiveness of sins is due to (Which the Quran says can only come from allah), he is the one salvation belongs to and that all judgement belongs to the son. Bahai do tend to gloss over these differences and not address tehm and still claim that there is no contradiction, they only do that by ignoring the contradictions.

That being said I disagree with this idea of “rising above difference.” What does that mean exactly? That unity is more important than truth? The contempt Christ and the early church had for the paganism around them would suggest to me that truth is worth more than unity for its own sake. What difference are we supposed to rise up and over? Should I expect the bahai to accept me worshipping Christ as God whom you view as a mere manifestation who is not God? Should you expect me to not take issue when you deny who I view as God as God? So what is this transcendence other than ignoring the differences and claiming that there is something else?

Simply making a claim doesn’t mean I should take anyone seriously. There have been a lot of attempts by many people to get the quran and bible, and Christianity and islam to be in harmony and usually they do this at the expense of one ideology of the other. Christ is not God, Christ is God, Christ did not die, Christ did die.
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Exactly. This is why we find the Baha’i speaking almost solely in abstract terms. They cannot deal with the reality of embracing contradictions. Even Baha’u’llah speaks in contradicting terms. He claims to be the second coming of Christ. Then he claims to be the Father. Then he says that both are correct. 🤷
 
SteveVH said:
Exactly. This is why we find the Baha’i speaking almost solely in abstract terms. They cannot deal with the reality of embracing contradictions. Even Baha’u’llah speaks in contradicting terms. He claims to be the second coming of Christ. Then he claims to be the Father. Then he says that both are correct. 🤷
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Certainly only He who is the Father can claim to be the Son.
 
fathercome said:
Not at all. For Baha’is the Day of the Encounter with the SELF OF GOD has arrived!! Baha’u’llah says “I am the Father”, not that you can get to the Father through me!

Accuse me of BLASPHEMY! God doesn’t exist! Baha’u’llah has appeared!
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in that case Mirza Hussain was even worse than I thought, claiming to be the eternal God. Why are bahai so against Jesus being worshipped as God? Why don’t you worship the father Mirza HUssain?
 
SteveVH said:
Really? I am a father. I don’t claim to be my son and my son does not claim to be me.
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I’m not trying to convert you. I am only trying to convey information. You seem to be offended by what my beliefs are. Please don’t feel that way. I am only desire to be understood.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
in that case Mirza Hussain was even worse than I thought, claiming to be the eternal God. Why are bahai so against Jesus being worshipped as God? Why don’t you worship the father Mirza HUssain?
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Fantastic!! I feel much better, thank you IgnatianPhilo, God bless you!

May God Almighty grant you all the Treasures of Heaven !!! I pray!
 
fathercome said:
Certainly only He who is the Father can claim to be the Son.
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This is another nonsensical statement.

I am really having a hard time following any type of coherent dialogue with you. I understand that you embrace illogic and contradictions, but you need to understand that in order to provide some sort of reasoned discourse you need to offer some arguments which do not border on the absurd.
 
PRmerger said:
This is another nonsensical statement.

I am really having a hard time following any type of coherent dialogue with you. I understand that you embrace illogic and contradictions, but you need to understand that in order to provide some sort of reasoned discourse you need to offer some arguments which do not border on the absurd.
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Then please let’s put aside our conceptions of Trinity. 🙂 How is it not polytheism?

Love you!
 
fathercome said:
Then please let’s put aside our conceptions of Trinity. 🙂 How is it not polytheism?
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Because the dogma of the Trinity professes this: there is only 1 God.

It would be polytheism if the dogma of the Trinity said this: there is more than 1 God.

That is the definition of polytheism.

Regardless, since you claim that you love contradictions, why not simply embrace what you view as a contradiction and simply accept the Trinity, with its apparent contradictions to you?

You have said you embrace contradictions. It it appears to you to be contradictory to believe in monotheism and the Trinity, embrace it, fathercome! Embrace it!
 
Clearly, religious discussions can easily become divisive when we don’t stop to listen.

Hopefully in the near future we will be able to openly and open-mindedly discuss issues with one another.

A good rule should be that we shouldn’t accuse each other of illogical beliefs, no?
 
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