Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[tonyfish58]

Hi all you are very busy on these threads and the last one closed out before I could reply to a question that I gave thought to and a friend supplied a point.

It was on the Martyrdom of the Bab. This topic showing why miracles are a touchy subject.

My friend offered a solution that he noticed Shoghi Effendi would do when these questions arise, that is the accuracy of a story.

Fortunatly we Have a book penned by Abdul’Baha called “A Travelers Narrative”. This work forms part of authorised scripture and thus the account in this book will endure.

This is the story - Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/TN/tn-2.html

During the course of the events which took place at Zanján the Prime Minister devised a final and trenchant remedy. Without the royal command, without consulting with the ministers of the subject-protecting court, he, acting with arbitrary disposition, fixed determination, and entirely on his own authority, issued commands to put the Báb to death. This befell in brief as follows. The governor of Ádhirbayján, Prince Hamzih Mírzá, was unwilling that the execution of this sentence should be at his hands, and said to the brother of the Amír, Mírzá Hasan Khán, “This is a vile business and an easy one; anyone is capable and competent. I had imagined that His Excellency the Regent would commission me to make war on the Afghans or Uzbegs or appoint me to attack and invade the territory of Russia or Turkey.” So Mírzá Hasan Khán wrote his excuse in detail to the Amír.
Now the Siyyid Báb had disposed all His affairs before setting out from Chihríq towards Tabríz, had placed His writings and even His ring and pen-case in a specially prepared box, put the key of the box in an envelope, and sent it by means of Mullá Báqir, who was one of His first associates, to Mullá ‘Abdu’l-Karím of Qazvín. This trust Mullá Báqir delivered over to Mullá ‘Abdu’l-Karím at Qum in presence of a numerous company. At the solicitations of those present he opened the lid of the box and said, “I am commanded to convey this trust to Bahá’u’lláh: more than this ask not of me, for I cannot tell you.” Importuned by the company, he produced a long epistle in blue, penned in the most graceful manner with the utmost delicacy and firmness in a beautiful 26 minute shikastih hand, written in the shape of a man so closely that it would have been imagined that it was a single wash of ink on the paper. When they had read this epistle [they perceived that] He had produced three hundred and sixty derivatives from the word Bahá. Then Mullá ‘Abdu’l-Karím conveyed the trust to its destination.
Well, we must return to our original narrative. The Prime Minister issued a second order to his brother Mírzá Hasan Khán, the gist of which order was this: “Obtain a formal and explicit sentence from the learned doctors of Tabríz who are the firm support of the Church of Ja’far (upon him be peace) and the impregnable stronghold of the Shí’ite faith; summon the Christian regiment of Urúmíyyih; suspend the Báb before all the people; and give orders for the regiment to fire a volley.”
Mírzá Hasan Khán summoned his chief of the farráshes, and gave him his instructions. They removed the Báb’s turban and sash which were the signs of His Siyyid-hood, brought Him with four of His followers to the barrack square of Tabríz, confined Him in a cell, and appointed forty of the Christian soldiers of Tabríz to guard Him.
Next day the chief of the farráshes delivered over the Báb and a young man named Áqá Muhammad-‘Alí who was of a noble family of Tabríz to Sám Khán, colonel of the Christian regiment of Urúmíyyih, at the sentences of the learned divine Mullá Muhammad of Mamaqán, of the second ecclesiastical authority Mullá Mírzá Báqir, and of the third ecclesiastical authority Mullá Murtadá-Qulí and others. An iron nail was hammered into the middle of the staircase of the very cell wherein they were imprisoned, and two ropes were hung down. By one rope the Báb was suspended and by the other rope Áqá Muhammad-‘Alí, both being firmly bound in such wise that the head of that young man was on the Báb’s breast. The surrounding housetops billowed with teeming crowds. A regiment of soldiers ranged itself in three files. The first file fired; then the second file, and then the third file discharged 27 volleys. From the fire of these volleys a mighty smoke was produced. When the smoke cleared away they saw that young man standing and the Báb seated by the side of His amanuensis Áqá Siyyid Husayn in the very cell from the staircase of which they had suspended them. To neither one of them had the slightest injury resulted.
Sám Khán the Christian asked to be excused; the turn of service came to another regiment, and the chief of the farráshes withheld his hand. Áqá Ján Big of Khamsíh, colonel of the bodyguard, advanced; and they again bound the Báb together with that young man to the same nail. The Báb uttered certain words which those few who knew Persian understood, while the rest heard but the sound of His voice.
The colonel of the regiment appeared in person: and it was before noon on the twenty-eighth day of Sha’bán in the year [A.H.] one thousand two hundred and sixty-six. 1 Suddenly he gave orders to fire. At this volley the bullets produced such an effect that the breasts [of the victims] were riddled, and their limbs were completely dissected, except their faces, which were but little marred.
CONTINUES IN NEW POST…

As one can see it is mostly as we know the story today and this was sent to other Historians. One would presume that those same people inquired into how many riflemen were in a regiment at that time and added this to their stories?

This is the story that will endure as scripture. IMHO

So if you have any more questions please ask.

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

2ND PART

Then they removed those two bodies from the square to the edge of the moat outside the city, and that night they remained by the edge of the moat. Next day the Russian consul came with an artist and took a picture of those two bodies in the posture wherein they had fallen at the edge of the moat.
On the second night at midnight the Bábís carried away the two bodies.
On the third day the people did not find the bodies, and some supposed that the wild beasts had devoured them, so that the doctors proclaimed from the summits of their pulpits saying, “The holy body of the immaculate Imám and that of the true Shí’ite are preserved from the encroachments of beasts of prey and creeping things and wounds, but the body of this 28 person have the wild beasts torn in pieces.” But after the fullest investigation and inquiry it hath been proved that when the Báb had dispersed all His writings and personal properties and it had become clear and evident from various signs that these events would shortly take place, therefore, on the second day of these events, Sulaymán Khán the son of Yahyá Khán, one of the nobles of Ádhirbayján devoted to the Báb, arrived, and proceeded straightway to the house of the mayor of Tabríz. And since the mayor was an old friend, associate, and confidant of his; since, moreover, he was of the mystic temperament and did not entertain aversion or dislike for any sect, Sulaymán Khán divulged this secret to him saying, “Tonight I, with several others, will endeavor by every means and artifice to rescue the body. Even though it be not possible, come what may we will make an attack, and either attain our object or pour out our lives freely in this way.” “Such troubles,” answered the mayor, “are in no wise necessary.” He then sent one of his private servants named Hájí Alláh-Yár, who, by whatever means and proceedings it was, obtained the body without trouble or difficulty and handed it over to Hájí Sulaymán Khán. And when it was morning the sentinels, to excuse themselves, said that the wild beasts had devoured it. That night they sheltered the body in the workshop of a Bábí of Milán: next day they manufactured a box, placed it in the box, and left it as a trust. Afterwards, in accordance with instructions which arrived from Tihrán, they sent it away from Ádhirbayján. And this transaction remained absolutely secret.

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Hi all you are very busy on these threads and the last one closed out before I could reply to a question that I gave thought to and a friend supplied a point.

It was on the Martyrdom of the Bab. This topic showing why miracles are a touchy subject.

My friend offered a solution that he noticed Shoghi Effendi would do when these questions arise, that is the accuracy of a story.

Fortunatly we Have a book penned by Abdul’Baha called “A Travelers Narrative”. This work forms part of authorised scripture and thus the account in this book will endure.

This is the story - Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/TN/tn-2.html

Regards Tony

Thanks for this, Tony. It’s always good to have the official version. The story seems to vary quite widely outside of this version. I read one account where after the smoke cleared that the Bab had disappeared. So I appreciate you giving us what you consider to be “Scripture” on the matter.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

Committee of the Forum please take note of the above. Thank you.

 

[arthra]

Thanks for this, Tony. It’s always good to have the official version. The story seems to vary quite widely outside of this version. I read one account where after the smoke cleared that the Bab had disappeared. So I appreciate you giving us what you consider to be “Scripture” on the matter.

Bahá’í Sacred Writings

“The writings of Bahá’u’lláh, the Báb, and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá form the sacred scriptures of the Bahá’í Faith. Shoghi Effendi, as appointed Guardian and interpreter, expounded the meaning of the scriptures. Since 1963, the Universal House of Justice, as the body designated by Bahá’u’lláh to legislate on the application of His laws and principles, has been providing necessary elucidations of questions that Bahá’u’lláh has left for its attention.”

bahai.org/dir/writings

The Traveler’s Narrative was written by Abdul-Baha.

It’s important to note that the Baha’i Writings are still in process of being translated…so a large amount of them are still in Farsi and Arabic.

There’s also a book widely used by Baha’is called The Martyrdom of the Bab A Compilation which is still in print an online edition can be found at

openisbn.com/preview/0933770871/

 

[Simpleton]

“Their religions come from the same Source and are in essence successive chapters of one religion from God”—Baha’i International Site

This interested me, so does Baha’i claim to be the fulfillment of all of these faiths or just the latest process in the evolution of the one true faith? Also how could all of the other faiths come from God? Does God have some sort of personality disorder?

 

[SteveVH]

Bahá’í Sacred Writings

“The writings of Bahá’u’lláh, the Báb, and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá form the sacred scriptures of the Bahá’í Faith. Shoghi Effendi, as appointed Guardian and interpreter, expounded the meaning of the scriptures. Since 1963, the Universal House of Justice, as the body designated by Bahá’u’lláh to legislate on the application of His laws and principles, has been providing necessary elucidations of questions that Bahá’u’lláh has left for its attention.”

bahai.org/dir/writings

The Traveler’s Narrative was written by Abdul-Baha.

It’s important to note that the Baha’i Writings are still in process of being translated…so a large amount of them are still in Farsi and Arabic.

There’s also a book widely used by Baha’is called The Martyrdom of the Bab A Compilation which is still in print an online edition can be found at

openisbn.com/preview/0933770871/

So that you understand the viewpoint from which I speak, we hold certain truths as divinely revealed. These are our dogmas. The teachings relating to these dogmas are known as doctrines and come from both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. We are obligated, as Catholics, to believe all Catholic dogma, teaching and doctrine. And we are to hold Sacred Scripture as the divinely inspired, inerrant word of God.

This is opposed to the writings of a private Catholic theologian, or even certain stories of saints which have become embellished over the years to the point of almost myth, or apparitions, or private locutions…

So when discussing either Baha’i or Catholic “scripture” it is important that we are on the same page in understanding what we each mean when we say something is “scripture”. Do the Baha’i believe that their scriptures are the divinely inspired, inerrant word of God or do you ascribe a different meaning? It is important as to whether or not something is held as “scripture” or is subject to opinion, especially when relating writings with which most of us are unfamiliar.

 

[tonyfish58]

So that you understand the viewpoint from which I speak, we hold certain truths as divinely revealed. These are our dogmas. The teachings relating to these dogmas are known as doctrines and come from both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. We are obligated, as Catholics, to believe all Catholic dogma, teaching and doctrine. And we are to hold Sacred Scripture as the divinely inspired, inerrant word of God.

This is opposed to the writings of a private Catholic theologian, or even certain stories of saints which have become embellished over the years to the point of almost myth, or apparitions, or private locutions…

So when discussing either Baha’i or Catholic “scripture” it is important that we are on the same page in understanding what we each mean when we say something is “scripture”. Do the Baha’i believe that their scriptures are the divinely inspired, inerrant word of God or do you ascribe a different meaning? It is important as to whether or not something is held as “scripture” or is subject to opinion, especially when relating writings with which most of us are unfamiliar.

Steve - Yes I agree with what you have said about you as a Catholic. With the Baha’i Faith the “Divinely Inspired, Word of God” Comes from the Bab (Forerunner of Baha’u’llah), Baha’u’llah and Abdul’Baha His Son, the Appointed Center of the Covenant. Shoghi Effendi the Guardian was given the authority to Interpret those writings. So an explanation Shoghi Effendi has given us on the Divinely Inspired Word of God is also Scripture.

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

This interested me, so does Baha’i claim to be the fulfillment of all of these faiths or just the latest process in the evolution of the one true faith? Also how could all of the other faiths come from God? Does God have some sort of personality disorder?

That is a good question.

The first two parts of your question could both be answered with a yes.

It is the fulfillment of all the previous Divinely Inspired Religions and at the same time the latest process in the unfolding of Gods Word for mankind. We are told their will be another Prophet after the full expiration of a Thousand years and that the Baha’i Dispensation will last for at lease 500,000 years. (I will be corrected if this time line is incorrect, I took it from memory).

If one looks at religion up to date, The heralds of those religions (Christ being one of these) all tell us that God has more to say unto us and that He would send another to bring about the Day of God on Earth. We beleive that Baha’u’llah is that Prophet.

It is called Progressive revelation, each Prophet bringing a message suited to that particular time and able to progress man to the next level of knowledge.

So you asked “Does God have some sort of personality disorder”? One could conclude that looking at the mess we have made of this world, or we could put the blame justly to where it truly lies, and that is with/on man. We have this thing called Free Will which requires a great deal of freedom to exercise it. The world is a powerhouse of Opposites and this is how it all works, including us. Thus we must use our free will to do good and this has always been the message of the Prophets.

Can we blame a parent that has given their children all the best advice available and then the child chooses to do wrong? This is a complex issue with many years of meditations to pursue. The first two Hidden Words of Baha’u’llah are worth thinking about and applicable to your questions. Link to all - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/HW/

O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

In the previous thread, Steve asked about the concept of Grace in the Baha’i religion.
There is a plentiful supply of material, it can take a lifetime’s study to grasp the meanings of the incredible amount of verses relating to it.

I thought this may be a good starting point for discussion

O Fourth Letter of this Temple, betokening the attribute of Grace! We have made thee the manifestation of grace betwixt earth and heaven. From thee have We generated all grace in the contingent world, and unto thee shall We cause it to return. And from thee shall We manifest it again, through a word of Our command. Potent am I to accomplish whatsoever I desire through My word “Be”, and it is! Every grace that appeareth in the world of being hath originated from thee, and unto thee shall it return. This, verily, is what hath been ordained in a Tablet which We have preserved behind the veil of glory and concealed from mortal eyes. Well is it with them that deprive themselves not of this manifest and unfailing grace.

Say: In this day, the fertilizing winds of the grace of God have passed over all things. Every creature hath been endowed with all the potentialities it can carry. And yet the peoples of the world have denied this grace! Every tree hath been endowed with the choicest fruits, every ocean enriched with the most luminous gems. Man, himself, hath been invested with the gifts of understanding and knowledge. The whole creation hath been made the recipient of the revelation of the All-Merciful, and the earth the repository of things inscrutable to all except God, the Truth, the Knower of things unseen. The time is approaching when every created thing will have cast its burden. Glorified be God Who hath vouchsafed this grace that encompasseth all things, whether seen or unseen! Thus have We created the whole earth anew in this day, yet most of the people have failed to perceive it. Say: The grace of God can never be adequately understood; how much less can His own Self, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, be comprehended!

• Baha’u’llah

 

[arthra]

This interested me, so does Baha’i claim to be the fulfillment of all of these faiths or just the latest process in the evolution of the one true faith? Also how could all of the other faiths come from God? Does God have some sort of personality disorder?

I’ll also give your question a response…

We believe there is one religion of God that has appeared at various times…

“The faith of God and religion of God hath been revealed and manifested from the heaven of the Will of the King of Preexistence only for the union and concord of the dwellers upon earth: make it not a cause of discord and dissension.”

~ Abdu’l-Baha, A Traveller’s Narrative, p. 84

over time yes there can be distortions and misinterpretations…that’s why I would suppose God keeps sending His Messengers so we get the “Message”! Also over time our needs as humanity change…hence we need updates and reboots from time to time!

Does God have a “personality disorder”…Gee I would hope not otherwise we’d be in a terrible mess…it’s not as though we don’t make terrible messes ourselves!

“Does Baha’i claim to be the fulfillment of all of these faiths(?)”…in brief YES!

*“A fire from the Kingdom hath been kindled in the heart of the world, in the Blessed Tree, whose flame shall ere long set aglow the pillars of the earth and its rays illumine the horizons of the nations. All the signs have appeared, all the prophetic references have become clear, all that was revealed in the Books and Scriptures hath become fully manifest, and there is no ground for any one to hesitate in regard thereto.”

~ Abdul-Baha

~ Compilations, Baha’i World Faith, p. 353

 

[Servant19]

Just a quick note to add to Tony and arthra’s posts.

Tony advised that the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah will last 500,000 years. Its actually the Baha’i Cycle which will last this long. The preceding religious cycle was the Adamic Cycle, during which time, all its component Manifestations of God prophesied about the coming of Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Cycle which will herald the Kingdom of God on earth.

The Dispensation of Christ lasted 622 years, that of Muhammad was 1222 solar years (1260 lunar years) and the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah will last at least 1000 years, after which God will manifest Himself to humans again. (I look forward to the long, long threads on the Baha’i forum at that time where Baha’is are sadly arguing their loyalty to Baha’u’llah at the expense of the new Manifestation of God )

God bless to all!!

 

[arthra]

So that you understand the viewpoint from which I speak, we hold certain truths as divinely revealed. These are our dogmas. The teachings relating to these dogmas are known as doctrines and come from both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. We are obligated, as Catholics, to believe all Catholic dogma, teaching and doctrine. And we are to hold Sacred Scripture as the divinely inspired, inerrant word of God.

This is opposed to the writings of a private Catholic theologian, or even certain stories of saints which have become embellished over the years to the point of almost myth, or apparitions, or private locutions…

So when discussing either Baha’i or Catholic “scripture” it is important that we are on the same page in understanding what we each mean when we say something is “scripture”. Do the Baha’i believe that their scriptures are the divinely inspired, inerrant word of God or do you ascribe a different meaning? It is important as to whether or not something is held as “scripture” or is subject to opinion, especially when relating writings with which most of us are unfamiliar.

"…we hold certain truths as divinely revealed. These are our dogmas. The teachings relating to these dogmas are known as doctrines and come from both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.…"

Thanks for sharing that!

Another way we use to look at it in Baha’i terms is

Inspired scriptures…such as the Bible.

Authentic repository of the Word of God such as the Qur’an (viewed in some ways like the “Old Testament” for Christians), Writings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

Robert Stockman put it this way:

Shoghi Effendi states that “apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá’í Revelations,” the Qur’án constitutes “the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God” (Advent of Divine Justice, 49). The Bahá’í Faith thus recognizes the revelation of God through Muhammad (as preserved in the Qur’án) as authentic; however, it has been superseded by the revelation to the Báb and particularly to Bahá’u’lláh, and thus its teachings are not binding on the Bahá’ís. The Qur’án can be seen as a sort of Old Testament to the Bahá’ís.

Source is below from his essay.

and accepting the interpretations of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

Usually the Writings are in an order. First the Writings of Baha’u’llah then the Bab and then Abdul-Baha in that order.

Shoghi Effendi’s writings are authoritative but not considered the Writings.

As to reported sayings of Abdul-Baha…Shoghi Effendi wrote:

It was chiefly in view of the misleading nature of the reports of the informal conversations of 'Abdu’l-Bahá with visiting pilgrims, that I have insistently urged the believers of the West to regard such statements as merely personal impressions of the sayings of their Master, and to quote and consider as authentic only such translations as are based upon the authenticated text of His recorded utterances in the original tongue.

~ Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 5

The same holds true for reported sayings attributed to Shoghi Effendi the Guardian…

So while there are what we call “PIlgrim Notes” they have no authority but may be of interest.

There’s a helpful article on the subject of scripture at

bahai-library.com/stockman_encyclopedia_scripture

 

[SteveVH]

"…we hold certain truths as divinely revealed. These are our dogmas. The teachings relating to these dogmas are known as doctrines and come from both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.…"

Thanks for sharing that!

Another way we use to look at it in Baha’i terms is

Inspired scriptures…such as the Bible.

Authentic repository of the Word of God such as the Qur’an (viewed in some ways like the “Old Testament” for Christians), Writings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

Robert Stockman put it this way:

Shoghi Effendi states that “apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá’í Revelations,” the Qur’án constitutes “the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God” (Advent of Divine Justice, 49). The Bahá’í Faith thus recognizes the revelation of God through Muhammad (as preserved in the Qur’án) as authentic; however, it has been superseded by the revelation to the Báb and particularly to Bahá’u’lláh, and thus its teachings are not binding on the Bahá’ís. The Qur’án can be seen as a sort of Old Testament to the Bahá’ís.

So Shoghi Effendi does not even mention the Christian Scriptures as constituting an authentic Repository of the Word of God, only the Quran. Or is there a difference between the inspired word of God and an authentic Repository of the Word of God?

Sorry, I was under the impression that the Baha’i accepted, in their own way, the Christian Scriptures as the inspired word of God. Now I’m a little confused.

One other point. The Quran is accepted as an “authenticated Repository of the Word of God”, and is then superseded by the revelation to the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Do you believe that truth is relative? Does “truth” change?

We do not believe that Jesus superseded the Truth revealed in the Old Testament, for instance. Instead he was the fulfillment of that Truth and, indeed, is that Truth. We believe that the Truth of God can never change as he is the Unchangeable.

I would be interested in your comments.

Thanks.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve - Yes I agree with what you have said about you as a Catholic. With the Baha’i Faith the “Divinely Inspired, Word of God” Comes from the Bab (Forerunner of Baha’u’llah), Baha’u’llah and Abdul’Baha His Son, the Appointed Center of the Covenant. Shoghi Effendi the Guardian was given the authority to Interpret those writings. So an explanation Shoghi Effendi has given us on the Divinely Inspired Word of God is also Scripture.

Regards Tony

Thank you, that is helpful.

 

[SteveVH]

"…we hold certain truths as divinely revealed. These are our dogmas. The teachings relating to these dogmas are known as doctrines and come from both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.…"

Thanks for sharing that!

Another way we use to look at it in Baha’i terms is

Inspired scriptures…such as the Bible.

Authentic repository of the Word of God such as the Qur’an (viewed in some ways like the “Old Testament” for Christians), Writings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

Okay, after re-reading your post I see that you are, in fact, making a distinction between “inspired scriptures” and “Authentic repository of the Word of God”. It is important that you explain this distinction so that we both understand what we mean by these terms.

Thanks.

 

[arthra]

Okay, after re-reading your post I see that you are, in fact, making a distinction between “inspired scriptures” and “Authentic repository of the Word of God”. It is important that you explain this distinction so that we both understand what we mean by these terms.

Thanks.

If you read the essay I attached it pretty much explains our view but I’ll quote the part here that relates… and I’ll bolden the type that are relevant:

Scripture Outside the Bahá’í Faith.

Bahá’u’lláh notes that “every leaf of these Books and Scriptures thou hast, moreover, allotted to each one of the peoples and kindreds of the earth” (Prayers and Meditations, 143). Here He states a basic Bahá’í position: that at one time or another God has sent a Manifestation, and a revelation, to every part of the earth. Because of this principle, the Bahá’í Faith recognizes the sacred writings of previous religions as scripture, though it does not accord equal status to the different scriptures. As a general rule, the works embodying the most recent revelations are viewed as the most authentic; the farther back in time a revelation occurred, the less accurately it is likely to have been preserved. Usually the Bahá’í view corresponds with the judgment of historians and textual critics.

      Shoghi Effendi states that "apart from the sacred  scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá’í Revelations," the Qur’án constitutes  "the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated  Repository of the Word of God" (Advent of Divine Justice, 49).  The Bahá’í Faith thus recognizes the revelation of God through Muhammad  (as preserved in the Qur’án) as authentic; however, it has been  superseded by the revelation to the Báb and particularly to Bahá’u'lláh,  and thus its teachings are not binding on the Bahá’ís. The Qur’án can  be seen as a sort of Old Testament to the Bahá’ís.

      The Bible’s Old and New Testaments are very frequently  quoted in the Bahá’í authoritative texts, and are often referred to as  scripture. `Abdu’l-Bahá praised the Bible highly: "this book is the Holy  Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation,  the noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its Light. It is  the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God" (Hasan Balyuzi, `Abdu’l-Bahá,  145).

Thus the Bible is a work that Bahá’ís study, venerate, and respect. But Shoghi Effendi notes that unlike the Qur’án, “the Bible is not wholly authentic” and implies that the text of the Bible may contain historical errors (Lights of Guidance, 1st ed., p. 370).

Thus Bahá’ís recognize the historical problems that arose in the transmission of God’s revelation from spoken to written form. The Bible’s teachings, like the Qur’án’s are not binding on Bahá’ís and are viewed as having been superseded by the Bahá’í revelation.

You can read the entire essay at:
bahai-library.com/stockman_encyclopedia_scripture*

 

[SteveVH]

If you read the essay I attached it pretty much explains our view but I’ll quote the part here that relates… and I’ll bolden the type that are relevant:

Scripture Outside the Bahá’í Faith.

Bahá’u’lláh notes that “every leaf of these Books and Scriptures thou hast, moreover, allotted to each one of the peoples and kindreds of the earth” (Prayers and Meditations, 143). Here He states a basic Bahá’í position: that at one time or another God has sent a Manifestation, and a revelation, to every part of the earth. Because of this principle, the Bahá’í Faith recognizes the sacred writings of previous religions as scripture, though it does not accord equal status to the different scriptures. As a general rule, the works embodying the most recent revelations are viewed as the most authentic; the farther back in time a revelation occurred, the less accurately it is likely to have been preserved. Usually the Bahá’í view corresponds with the judgment of historians and textual critics.

      Shoghi Effendi states that "apart from the sacred  scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá’í Revelations," the Qur’án constitutes  "the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated  Repository of the Word of God" (Advent of Divine Justice, 49).  The Bahá’í Faith thus recognizes the revelation of God through Muhammad  (as preserved in the Qur’án) as authentic; however, it has been  superseded by the revelation to the Báb and particularly to Bahá’u'lláh,  and thus its teachings are not binding on the Bahá’ís. The Qur’án can  be seen as a sort of Old Testament to the Bahá’ís.

      The Bible’s Old and New Testaments are very frequently  quoted in the Bahá’í authoritative texts, and are often referred to as  scripture. `Abdu’l-Bahá praised the Bible highly: "this book is the Holy  Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation,  the noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its Light. It is  the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God" (Hasan Balyuzi, `Abdu’l-Bahá,  145).

Thus the Bible is a work that Bahá’ís study, venerate, and respect. But Shoghi Effendi notes that unlike the Qur’án, “the Bible is not wholly authentic” and implies that the text of the Bible may contain historical errors (Lights of Guidance, 1st ed., p. 370).

Thus Bahá’ís recognize the historical problems that arose in the transmission of God’s revelation from spoken to written form. The Bible’s teachings, like the Qur’án’s are not binding on Bahá’ís and are viewed as having been superseded by the Bahá’í revelation.

Okay, now we’re getting somewhere. There are a lot of points to address but for the sake of discussion lets focus on one at a time.

There seems to be a myth, even among certain Christian denominations (so you are not alone in this) that Church history, including its sacred dogmas and doctrines, is nothing more than a journey through the mist; the further back in time we go, the less uncertain anyone can be of the original teachings. This is a false premise. To the contrary, Catholic history is incredibly well documented with writings from the 1st century on.

This position also assumes that the aggregate of Christian teaching was compiled in the Sacred Scriptures which then became the standard authority of all Christians. Again, a false premise. The Church already held the same dogmas and doctrines that we hold today before the New Testament was even written and nearly 400 years before the sacred texts were canonized.

So the premise that “the farther back in time a revelation occurred, the less accurately it is likely to have been preserved.” is simply not true. Does anyone question whether the writings of Aristotle or Plato are actually their writings? We have much more evidence for the Catholic Church than we do for these folks.

So I think we could start there. It seems to be no secret that the Baha’i faith began as an off shoot of Islam and therefore it is understandable that the Quran would be held in high esteem. But why do the sands of time not affect the validity of the Quran in the same way as they are purported to effect the Holy Bible?

 

[daler]

So the premise that “the farther back in time a revelation occurred, the less accurately it is likely to have been preserved.” is simply not true. Does anyone question whether the writings of Aristotle or Plato are actually their writings? We have much more evidence for the Catholic Church than we do for these folks.

So I think we could start there. It seems to be no secret that the Baha’i faith began as an off shoot of Islam and therefore it is understandable that the Quran would be held in high esteem. But why do the sands of time not affect the validity of the Quran in the same way as they are purported to effect the Holy Bible?

Steve,
. If I may throw my two cents into the ring here… I think that where there were centuries between actual occurrences or Figures in religious history before anything was actually set down in writing there tends to be less certainty. For example, Buddhist and Hindu traditions were oral for several centuries and came down with some variations as well as grand embellishments which cannot reasonably be attributed to Buddha or Krsna, but to the minds of those who passed along the stories over time. This does not mean that these Figures did not exist or that there aren’t divine truths within the stories as told, just as when we read the Old Testament that there weren’t divine truths being taught that mankind needed, for it is clear that we do need the guidance of God in whatever form it may be given to us.

. I believe that regarding the accuracy of the Quran, this is based upon it being written down some 3 or 4 years after the passing of Muhammad. As I understand it, there were a number of people who memorized the verses of the Quran as they were revealed during the 23 (lunar) years from 610 AD to 632 AD and that they were being killed off in the wars, hence the need realized to write them down was sensed very early on.

. The essential truths of the Gospel are upheld by the Baha’is with certainty as guidance from God Himself, while at the same time recognizing that recollections, as I understand it, contained certain variations according to the memory, or Gospel “according to” Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John, for example. Again, this does not diminish the intent and purpose of the Sacred Texts, but recognizes the human variations as they are. How we wish that Jesus Himself had written in His own Hand. Even Muhammad did not do this, for it was known that He was illiterate and stated that the Verses did not originate with Him, but were given to Him by the Angel Gabriel, Who also appeared to certain Old Testament Prophets.

. Several tens of thousands of pages in the handwriting of the Bab and Baha’u’llah have been authenticated and are held in the Baha’i International Archives, a portion of which have been translated into English. Perhaps 80 to 90 % have yet to be translated from the original Farsi or Arabic from this volume.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Response to Sen

Not the only solution, but one half of the solution. On the one hand, we believe that this world can, with the help of God, be reshaped in accordance with God’s will, which is to see His children dealing with one another good children of one family. A world federal system is one aspect of this: many other things are also involved. In his letter to the Central Organization for a Durable Peace (the “tablet to the Hague”) he writes:

I would like to repeat the charge that should you obtain this utopia, this tower of babel, evil would still exist and not be destroyed.

This new world order is not envisioned as a world without sin, for evil (the absence of good) is always potential in free will. Bahais believe that in this world we always have free will, so the potential for sin is always present. The new world order is to be sustained by an awareness of the oneness of humanity, and maintained by a Tribunal that can enforce its verdicts. It’s practical, not utopian. But in the next world, we do not have free will. The world you look for, when sin and evil will be no more, is coming, for you and for everyone, as we all die.

This programme of principles for " the felicity of mankind" is one part of what Baha’u’llah has to offer. The other part is “to know and to worship God.” This is the root of the tree, while justice, fellowship, and peace are among the fruits.

Your new world order is pointless then. Evil will continue to dominate mankind, no matter the change in government you cannot change the human person. Power of such a magnitude be only of one person or a council eventually corrupts as history has shown time and time again. So I see my point only reinforced, evil will forever exist in bahai eschatology, the only hope bahai have is establishing the One world government and trying to be good.

Now you say objectively the world is getting better. How do you prove objectively that the world is improving or “getting better” or whatever that means? Less death? More people are dying now than ever before. Less sexual sin? We are being exposed to more and more dissolution of the family. Tolerance? We are seeing Islamic radicals constantly killing people while the “Moderates” don’t seem to care, we are seeing western governments continuing to grow secular and slowly placing restrictions on those with traditional beliefs (ie traditional marriage or the right to raise your own children without going to public school). We are still seeing abortion and infanticide being practiced all over the world, abortion in the west, forced abortion in china, infanticide of girls in india. Where do you get this strange notion that the world is getting better? IT isn’t getting better, it is the same as it always has been, good and evil. You however seem content with a creation that will forever adhere to evil, whereas God and Jesus said otherwise.