Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[PRmerger]

Except that almost every single proof that Bahaullah is Christ Returned has been laid out on these 3-4000 posts on the Bahai Faith.

I haven’t read a single proof for his divinity.

What I have read is a lot of obfuscation. And some nice things that Bahaullah said that are insightful. In the same way that the writings of Thomas Merton cause us to contemplate the Real.

And some outright false claims (see the 750 soldier thing).

Where’s Jose Luis’s proof and evidence? Is he from Elam? How is the number 1260 related to him? What about Daniel’s prophecy? How does he provide an “increase in government”? The list of questions go on and on and on…NOTHING from Jose!!

Does this not sound like the same arguments presented by the Jews against Jesus?

But you stick with argumentation PR.

Baha’is are not here to argue, and to be honest I’ve argued with you far too much, and to the detriment of my soul. Clinging onto a figure of speech where I say “every scholar” to mean literally “every single scholar” and defining scholar for me when it was evidently clarified that I meant university scholars, is clear evidence that you are trying to find every single fine hair that might deviate even a microscopic measure away from what you call truth…

Yes, we are all here to dialogue and discourse. Arguments* are presented and may be refuted or accepted.

*Arguments in the classic philosophical sense. Not to be interpreted as synonymous with quarreling.

 

[PRmerger]

I keep falling for this trap with you and I won’t any more simply because I can’t live my life ensuring that every single word of my posts are according to dictionary definitions and are undeniably the truth. That’s not a discussion.

I am glad that I am making you squirm a bit. It is this feeling of being disconcerted that may serve as a catalyst for you to re-evaluate your position.

You have, I think, been able to see that your positions are untenable. When you see this, it makes you feel as if you are being trapped.

I have only presented with logic and reason arguments for Catholicism and refutations of Bahai teaching.

Nothing more and nothing less.

That you feel as if you are being trapped is a signal to me that you realize, at least at some level, that you have embraced some things in your life which are not consonant with Truth.

 

[Servant19]

I am glad that I am making you squirm a bit. It is this feeling of being disconcerted that may serve as a catalyst for you to re-evaluate your position.

You have, I think, been able to see that your positions are untenable. When you see this, it makes you feel as if you are being trapped.

I have only presented with logic and reason arguments for Catholicism and refutations of Bahai teaching.

Nothing more and nothing less.

That you feel as if you are being trapped is a signal to me that you realize, at least at some level, that you have embraced some things in your life which are not consonant with Truth.

Trust me there is not a single movement that can remotely be called a contribution towards a “squirm” LOL

I will not argue any more because the truth has been laid out for you so so clearly and it’s tiresome to keep repeating only to be told its “untenable”

I wish you well PR, but I will leave any further dialogue with you to others who are willing to repeat the endless rational proofs already presented.

A re-review of the threads may assist you, but your intention is not to search for truth, your book is closed. I guess this is your Day of Resurrection. God bless

 

[PRmerger]

I guess this is your Day of Resurrection.

I am not certain what you mean by this, but as today is Sunday, in the Catholic world we say, Amen! to this being our Day of Resurrection.

As such, every day is our Day of Resurrection.

And it is celebrated each and every hour of the day in the Catholic word, from the rising of the sun to its setting, for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is being offered around the globe at every hour of the day.

So, it is indeed true that Today is our Day of Resurrection.

God bless

And to you as well.

He is Risen, Alleluia! :harp:

 

[SteveVH]

Trust me there is not a single movement that can remotely be called a contribution towards a “squirm” LOL

I will not argue any more because the truth has been laid out for you so so clearly and it’s tiresome to keep repeating only to be told its “untenable”

I wish you well PR, but I will leave any further dialogue with you to others who are willing to repeat the endless rational proofs already presented.

A re-review of the threads may assist you, but your intention is not to search for truth, your book is closed. I guess this is your Day of Resurrection. God bless

Wow. Just wow.

 

[tonyfish58]

The accusations against Christ were wrong. That does not translate to: “Therefore, any time anyone makes these accusations he is also wrong.”

That would make it impossible for you to say that Mr. de Jesus is not divine.

Are you willing to say that Mr. de Jesus is also a manifestation of God, or will you also offer the same accusations as the Jews did to Mr. de Jesus?

The accusations against Baha’u’llah are wrong! Thus this also equates to “therefore any time someone makes these accusations does not mean they are right”!

If one attributes all the Glory to Christ that is due, that is great. If one wishes to slander all others that have also displayed all this Majesty, then so be it! That is ones own choice.

We could discuss the virtues of the Prophets to heighten our love, or not.

I know what I choose

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Wow. Just wow.

That was straight to the point

We are told to discuss a topic with some one that has no intent to take it on board, is bad for both of us.

Reading back through the threads confirms these wise words!

3000+ Threads and we still Love Christ with all our Heart and Souls. We leave it up to you where you take it, or not

Best of luck in Life and Faith, God Bless.

Regards Tony

 

[PRmerger]

The accusations against Baha’u’llah are wrong!

Well, personally, I haven’t made any accusations against Bahaullah. I am just asking for some sort of demonstration for his divinity.

If one attributes all the Glory to Christ that is due, that is great. If one wishes to slander all others that have also displayed all this Majesty, then so be it! That is ones own choice

Is it your belief that I could achieve eternal salvation (or whatever is the equivalent of this as Bahais understand it) without Bahaullah?

 

[PRmerger]

We are told to discuss a topic with some one that has no intent to take it on board, is bad for both of us.

How is it that you can judge my intention here, tony?

Are you somehow privy to the discernment which occurs in my mind and heart that you can tell what my intent is?

 

[tonyfish58]

Well, personally, I haven’t made any accusations against Bahaullah. I am just asking for some sort of demonstration for his divinity.

Is it your belief that I could achieve eternal salvation (or whatever is the equivalent of this as Bahais understand it) without Bahaullah?

One should look at ones replies! But lets agree that no hints to the negative have been made against Baha’u’llah

One must be Born Again, this is what our life is about, finding God. All the Prophets are the vehicle for this to be done. We are told that it is important to accept the latest message from God.

Regards Tony

 

[frazelle09]

Well, personally, I haven’t made any accusations against Bahaullah. I am just asking for some sort of demonstration for his divinity.

Is it your belief that I could achieve eternal salvation (or whatever is the equivalent of this as Bahais understand it) without Bahaullah?

This last question is very interesting. Here there are two possibilities, as i understand this. One, in which one has never heard of the claims of Bahá’u’lláh and two, in which one has heard of His claims.

Before i go on, of course this applies to every time a Manifestion of God appears.
Each one comes for our “salvation”. The succession of Manifestions can be likened to the grades in a school. When we are in one grade we need to learn the teachings that our teacher gives us. We have supposedly already learned the teachings the previous teachers from previous grades have given us.

So if, in our present grade we accept our new teacher and learn from him, we have accomplished our purpose and in the next life will be prepared for whatever God has in store for us. On the other hand, if we do not accept the new teacher and refuse to learn his teachings, we will reach the next life ill-eqipped for service to His Holy Threshold.

In the case where we have never heard of the most recent teacher i think the Bahá’í belief is that since God is Most-Merciful He will treat us accordingly.

Hopefully this will help some. Have a wonderful afternoon!

 

[tonyfish58]

How is it that you can judge my intention here, tony?

Are you somehow privy to the discernment which occurs in my mind and heart that you can tell what my intent is?

Fair enough, I am very sorry for imputing this to you.

P/S It is not about making any one Squirm! Could it be these statements that show intent?

Is it not about finding the Truth?

Regards Tony

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Sen, could you please give us a thumbnail version of the Baha’i understanding of salvation? As you are aware we believe that Christ became incarnate, suffered, died and rose bodily from the grave for the salvation of the world. His work is finished; accomplished. We only wait for his final return.

What is the Baha’i view of the Christian understanding concerning redemption and salvation through Jesus Christ, considering that the belief seems to be that God becomes incarnate at various times in history in a continuing, never ending cycle?
.

The striking thing about the Bahai doctrines of salvation (social and individual), in comparison to the previous Abrahamic religions, is that salvation is a process rather than an on-off switch. So on the one hand, the work of Christ is complete and does not need to be repeated, on the other hand, that is not the last chapter in the story of salvation, or “quickening” as it is often called in the Bahai scriptures. Bahais understand the division of the human race into contending nations, races and religions to be contrary to God’s will, and therefore see unity (which is progressively achieved) as a form of salvation. Baha’u’llah writes;

Wert thou to consider, for but a little while, the outward works and doings of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, thou wouldst fall down upon the ground, and exclaim: “O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, …I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.”
(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 243)

In comparison to western Christianity, a striking difference is the absence of the satisfaction theory of atonement. Compared to Protestantism, it is the absence of the penal substitution theory. Both of these theories try to describe the mechanism by which sacrifice is salvific. Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha, at least in my reading, assume that voluntary self-sacrifice is salvific in and of itself. As I understand it, this is also the thinking of the Eastern (Orthodox) churches.

 

[PRmerger]

We are told that it is important to accept the latest message from God.

Regards Tony

But if I accept Jesus as my Savior, am in a state of grace through the Sacraments of the Catholic Church, what does Bahaullah say regarding my eternity? (I am, of course, speaking of a generic “I”)

 

[PRmerger]

Fair enough, I am very sorry for imputing this to you.

Apology accepted.

P/S It is not about making any one Squirm!

Indeed.

Could it be these statements that show intent?

If I said that my intention is to make you squirm…and that was my only intention…then you would be correct to object.

However, I have never said my intention was to make you squirm. That is your imputation to me here. And an erroneous one.

And even if the truth does make you squirm, it’s not that to which I appeal. If you squirm because you understand that your position is untenable, then that is an undesirable side effect of examining your beliefs.

Again, you have read into my intent and judged my heart.

I think that I may have to rescind my acceptance of your apology?? Or are you really saying that you misread my intention?

 

[arthra]

But if I accept Jesus as my Savior, am in a state of grace through the Sacraments of the Catholic Church, what does Bahaullah say regarding my eternity? (I am, of course, speaking of a generic “I”)

I don’t think we have the same view of heaven and hell or purgatory that you do…so when you write “my eternity” I think that would be in the context of your beliefs …

My opinion:

If someone consciously rejects the Manifestation of God for this day…They are in effect rejecting all the previous Manifestations…in our belief…including Jesus…

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.

• from the Tablet of Ahmad

God is merciful and our progress in the next life is in His hands…

"… we believe that God’s Mercy exceeds His Justice, and that through the repentance of a soul, the prayers and supplications of other souls, and the goodness of God, even a person who has passed away in great spiritual darkness can be forgiven, educated spiritually in the next world and progress." ….

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, February 7, 1947)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 187)

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

In comparison to western Christianity, a striking difference is the absence of the satisfaction theory of atonement. Compared to Protestantism, it is the absence of the penal substitution theory. Both of these theories try to describe the mechanism by which sacrifice is salvific. Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha, at least in my reading, assume that voluntary self-sacrifice is salvific in and of itself. As I understand it, this is also the thinking of the Eastern (Orthodox) churches.

The orthodox do not deny that salvation is only through and by Jesus Christ. Christ bought the Christian, he paid the price (as saint Paul has said) and has redeemed human nature. Orthodox Christianity unlike bahai says the human body can and will be redeemed, ultimately becoming eternal through the ressurection.

 

[PRmerger]

If someone consciously rejects the Manifestation of God for this day…They are in effect rejecting all the previous Manifestations…in our belief…including Jesus…

So what does that mean for me? I reject the current alleged manifestation of God.

And what does this mean for you? You accept Bahaullah as a manifestation of God, but do not avail yourself of the sacraments that were instituted by a previous manifestation of God. And thus you have no One Flesh Union with Christ.

You are saying that you are beyond the need to be One Flesh with Him, because you now accept the teachings of Bahuallah?

 

[Nick44]

But if I accept Jesus as my Savior, am in a state of grace through the Sacraments of the Catholic Church, what does Bahaullah say regarding my eternity? (I am, of course, speaking of a generic “I”)

PR, you might find this interesting. It’s an essay I found at Baha’i Library Online, “55 Questions” (with answers from the Writings). It’s an overview of Baha’i ethics.

bahai-library.com/winters_ethics_survey

 

[PRmerger]

PR, you might find this interesting. It’s an essay I found at Baha’i Library Online, “55 Questions” (with answers from the Writings). It’s an overview of Baha’i ethics.

bahai-library.com/winters_ethics_survey

While I get that it’s often easier to refer folks to other sites to explain your position, I prefer for this discussion that you give me a synopsis in your own words.