Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Nick44]

While I get that it’s often easier to refer folks to other sites to explain your position, I prefer for this discussion that you give me a synopsis in your own words.

Understood, but it’s not long and deals with specific questions that I have seen you and others raise. Besides, I have a tendency to get long-winded which is not helpful to anyone. Thanks.

 

[arthra]

So what does that mean for me? I reject the current alleged manifestation of God.

And what does this mean for you? You accept Bahaullah as a manifestation of God, but do not avail yourself of the sacraments that were instituted by a previous manifestation of God. And thus you have no One Flesh Union with Christ.

You are saying that you are beyond the need to be One Flesh with Him, because you now accept the teachings of Bahuallah?

You know Merger what it means to you is a personal issue… I can only relay what’s in the Writings… All of us are in God’s hands as I believe is our salvation… as to the “flesh” I am only in this vehicle through God’s Will and when it His pleasure my “flesh” will be abandoned…

God’s blessings

 

[frazelle09]

So what does that mean for me? I reject the current alleged manifestation of God.

And what does this mean for you? You accept Bahaullah as a manifestation of God, but do not avail yourself of the sacraments that were instituted by a previous manifestation of God. And thus you have no One Flesh Union with Christ.

You are saying that you are beyond the need to be One Flesh with Him, because you now accept the teachings of Bahuallah?

PRmerger - the last statement is a question i suppose. The answer to that question would be - yes.

and no.

Each new Manifestation has full authority to speak on God’s behalf so we suppose that God wants us to recognize His new Manifestion because he has more to say to us because the previous Manifestations have educated us and brought us to this new stage of development. i suppose this would be the “yes” part.

If we understand that each Manifestation is a true reflection of God’s Will and is animated by the same Holy Spirit, then we can understand that “no”, we are not beyond the need to be One Flesh with Him because we understand that we are really One with the Spirit, and that Spirit is eternal, everlasting. So in reality we are One with Abraham, Moses, his Holiness Christ, Muhammad and now Bahá’u’lláh.

Uf, that was hard. i hope it helps. Warmest greetings for tonight!

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger - the last statement is a question i suppose. The answer to that question would be - yes.

and no.

Each new Manifestation has full authority to speak on God’s behalf so we suppose that God wants us to recognize His new Manifestion because he has more to say to us because the previous Manifestations have educated us and brought us to this new stage of development. i suppose this would be the “yes” part.

If we understand that each Manifestation is a true reflection of God’s Will and is animated by the same Holy Spirit, then we can understand that “no”, we are not beyond the need to be One Flesh with Him because we understand that we are really One with the Spirit, and that Spirit is eternal, everlasting. So in reality we are One with Abraham, Moses, his Holiness Christ, Muhammad and now Bahá’u’lláh.

Uf, that was hard. i hope it helps. Warmest greetings for tonight!

Warmest greetings to you, too.

Regarding the One Flesh with the Spirit–would you buy that from your wife, if she told you that you and she no longer need to engage in the marital embrace (assuming you are a man. If not, please reverse the roles ) because you are really already united.

Would that fly with you?

 

[tonyfish58]

Apology accepted.

I think that I may have to rescind my acceptance of your apology?? Or are you really saying that you misread my intention?

It is I that misread your intention!

I also like these quotes

Come, let us reason together! ~Isaiah 1:18

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord -Joshua 24:15

Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

St Augustine: You have made us for yourself O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee

All Applicable to the discussions to date

Regards Tony

 

[frazelle09]

Warmest greetings to you, too.

Regarding the One Flesh with the Spirit–would you buy that from your wife, if she told you that you and she no longer need to engage in the marital embrace (assuming you are a man. If not, please reverse the roles ) because you are really already united.

Would that fly with you?

Huh? or What? i thought we were talking about the Spirit, the Word, which animates the Manifestations of God, not my wife. How did she get involved in this?

Warmest greetings

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

The orthodox do not deny that salvation is only through and by Jesus Christ. Christ bought the Christian, he paid the price (as saint Paul has said) and has redeemed human nature. Orthodox Christianity unlike bahai says the human body can and will be redeemed, ultimately becoming eternal through the ressurection.

I know that Christians, like Zoroastrians, Jews and Muslims, believe in the resurrection of the body. Bahais believe in eternal life, and believe that eternal life is the message conveyed in the stories of physical resurrection. We are de-mythologizers avant la lettre . But then, so a centuries of exegetes in all these religions, who have applied the rule that when the plain meaning of a text is absurd, it should be understood as a metaphor or parable, since we can assume that the author did not mean to tell us something absurd. So Bultmann was not saying something very new, in that respect.

My knowledge of Orthodox theology is second-hand: one of my lecturers was the theologian Alan Torrance (3rd generation of that theological family), whose teacher in turn was Orthodox. He used to pepper his lectures with compare-and-contrast between Protestant and Orthodox theologies. From him, I had understood that the eastern churches did not have a legalistic approach to salvation, reading the “ransom” language of the New Testament as a metaphor, and explicitly rejecting the idea that there was any debt that had to be paid to Satan or to death, or that God was unable to act until a debt had been paid. And naturally, the eastern churches were not influenced by Anselm’s offense and satisfaction theory. Torrance claimed that was a particularly Germanic cultural construct, which would have little traction in other cultures. I am not so sure of that, as offense and satisfaction seems to be associated with monarchy and court cultures in which the office of king has developed a mystique additional to that of the king.

 

[PRmerger]

Huh? or What? i thought we were talking about the Spirit, the Word, which animates the Manifestations of God, not my wife. How did she get involved in this?

Warmest greetings

We are talking about union with the Divine.

A spiritual union, while wonderful, cannot replace the most sublime intimacy there is this side of heaven: the One Flesh Union.

Thus, for you to say “We don’t need to have this intimacy with God that you Catholics have, because we have a spiritual connection with God” is analogous to your wife telling you, “I don’t need to enjoy the marital embrace with you anymore because we are already so close spiritually.”

You wouldn’t accept that, would you?

 

[eddie_too]

the clearest evidence that bahaullah does not come from mankind’s Creator is the fact that bahaullah teaches that Jesus did not raise Himself from the dead.

Jesus, of course, said He would raise Himself from the dead.

since, whether bahai believe it or not, Jesus did raise Himself from the dead, we have absolute proof that bahaullah did not know much about what he was declaring.

that is why i wrote earlier that the bahai feel themselves competent to tell the people who wrote the book that they do not know the meaning of what they wrote.

bahai beliefs come from a mere human creature who was not inspired by almighty God. that is why when it is closely examined we find many contradictions and errors.

make no mistake about it. the bahai believe Jesus was only a creature. the bahai do not believe Jesus was their Creator. the bahai reject Jesus’ saying that He would raise Himself from the dead.

 

[SteveVH]

The striking thing about the Bahai doctrines of salvation (social and individual), in comparison to the previous Abrahamic religions, is that salvation is a process rather than an on-off switch. So on the one hand, the work of Christ is complete and does not need to be repeated, on the other hand, that is not the last chapter in the story of salvation, or “quickening” as it is often called in the Bahai scriptures. Bahais understand the division of the human race into contending nations, races and religions to be contrary to God’s will, and therefore see unity (which is progressively achieved) as a form of salvation.

Thanks for your response. From my brief look at the Baha’i meaning of “quickening” there are actually some similarities between that view and the Christian (at least Catholic/Orthodox) understanding of Baptism. We believe that we are spiritually “dead” due to the sin of Adam and Eve. Original sin is not something that we actually acquire or take on through our birth, but rather we are born lacking something very important: supernatural life. Through Baptism this divine life, this supernatural life, is infused in us once again, as it was intended in the beginning. This is a accomplished because of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. We are Baptized into his death so that we might also rise with him.

The point is, that it is all through Christ, without whom we cannot be saved. This applies to all people, past present and future. It all rests on Jesus Christ who said “It is finished”. What he came to the world to do had been accomplished. And so the Christian asks: “What need do I have of Baha’u’llah or anyone else for that matter, as far as my eternal destiny is concerned”?

The Baha’i faith seems to me to be a pseudo-messianic religion which promises salvation in this earthly life through one world governments, world courts and organizations such as the United Nations. It never really seems to address the spiritual aspect of “salvation”; the issues of sin, repentance, redemption and ultimately a share in the divine life of God himself as his adopted sons and daughters, i.e. “salvation”.

 

[SteveVH]

I know that Christians, like Zoroastrians, Jews and Muslims, believe in the resurrection of the body.

While I cannot speak for Zoroastrians, Jews or Muslims, yes this is true for Christianity.

Bahais believe in eternal life, and believe that eternal life is the message conveyed in the stories of physical resurrection.

Well, Christians believe that the message contained in the stories of physical resurrection is eternal life as well. We just believe that we will enjoy that eternal life as intact human beings (body and soul) with glorified bodies which are capable of living in the spiritual world. Christ demonstrated some of the capabilities of that glorified body after the Resurrection.

We are de-mythologizers avant la lettre . But then, so a centuries of exegetes in all these religions, who have applied the rule that when the plain meaning of a text is absurd, it should be understood as a metaphor or parable, since we can assume that the author did not mean to tell us something absurd.

Here is my issue concerning the criteria used in determining whether or not something is actually “absurd” or whether or not it is “supernatural” or miraculous. My impression, thus far, is that anything that is not considered “normal” or not “naturally” observed in this world seems to be dismissed as “absurd” and therefore the Baha’i search for another meaning.

For example, when Christ demonstrated some the attributes of a glorified body (eating food while able to walk through solid objects) the Baha’i assume that this is simply “absurd” because this does not occur in the natural world. The fact that this is a supernatural act, therefore, by definition, something outside of and above the natural order, is simply not considered as a possibility, and this is in spite of the fact that we have eye witnesses to the event.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

My knowledge of Orthodox theology is second-hand: one of my lecturers was the theologian Alan Torrance (3rd generation of that theological family), whose teacher in turn was Orthodox. He used to pepper his lectures with compare-and-contrast between Protestant and Orthodox theologies. From him, I had understood that the eastern churches did not have a legalistic approach to salvation, reading the “ransom” language of the New Testament as a metaphor, and explicitly rejecting the idea that there was any debt that had to be paid to Satan or to death, or that God was unable to act until a debt had been paid. And naturally, the eastern churches were not influenced by Anselm’s offense and satisfaction theory. Torrance claimed that was a particularly Germanic cultural construct, which would have little traction in other cultures. I am not so sure of that, as offense and satisfaction seems to be associated with monarchy and court cultures in which the office of king has developed a mystique additional to that of the king.

 

[eddie_too]

i guess if you discard the notion of justice the concept of atonement is unnecessary.

 

[Servant19]

the clearest evidence that bahaullah does not come from mankind’s Creator is the fact that bahaullah teaches that Jesus did not raise Himself from the dead.

Jesus, of course, said He would raise Himself from the dead.

since, whether bahai believe it or not, Jesus did raise Himself from the dead, we have absolute proof that bahaullah did not know much about what he was declaring.

that is why i wrote earlier that the bahai feel themselves competent to tell the people who wrote the book that they do not know the meaning of what they wrote.

bahai beliefs come from a mere human creature who was not inspired by almighty God. that is why when it is closely examined we find many contradictions and errors.

make no mistake about it. the bahai believe Jesus was only a creature. the bahai do not believe Jesus was their Creator. the bahai reject Jesus’ saying that He would raise Himself from the dead.

Eddie the Bahai position is that true life commences AFTER our physical death from earth. When viewed in this light, Christ did not die, but was indeed “raised” from the physical dead to commence life in the realm that reflects Truth. The realm we all enter AFTER our physical death.

The next realm after our physical death is unimaginably glorious, as different as this life is on earth as compared to life in the realm of the mothers womb.

Jesus was raised from the dead and is truly alive and well in the hearts of His Church members and all who adore His grace He showered upon mankind (and that includes Baha’is, we love Jesus with all our heart). His presence is always felt when a few gather in His name, and His presence is always felt when we beseech Him in prayer.

This is Baha’u’llahs teaching which Baha’is have embraced as Truth.
It’s your exercise of free will to take it or leave it

God bless

 

[doormouse73]

Eddie the Bahai position is that true life commences AFTER our physical death from earth. When viewed in this light, Christ did not die, but was indeed “raised” from the physical dead to commence life in the realm that reflects Truth. The realm we all enter AFTER our physical death.

The next realm after our physical death is unimaginably glorious, as different as this life is on earth as compared to life in the realm of the mothers womb.

Jesus was raised from the dead and is truly alive and well in the hearts of His Church members and all who adore His grace He showered upon mankind (and that includes Baha’is, we love Jesus with all our heart). His presence is always felt when a few gather in His name, and His presence is always felt when we beseech Him in prayer.

This is Baha’u’llahs teaching which Baha’is have embraced as Truth.
It’s your exercise of free will to take it or leave it

God bless

Jesus was raised from the dead and is truly alive and well in the hearts of His Church members and all who adore His grace He showered upon mankind (and that includes Baha’is, we love Jesus with all our heart). His presence is always felt when a few gather in His name, and His presence is always felt when we beseech Him in prayer.

the best way ive ever felt Jesus within me or around me is in the Eucharist/Host…

that is because he comes to me in body and blood along in spirit…

 

[Servant19]

the best way ive ever felt Jesus within me or around me is in the Eucharist/Host…

that is because he comes to me in body and blood along in spirit…

That’s wonderful doormouse

If Jesus can work through us in any way that works for us then that is praiseworthy.

 

[eddie_too]

servant19,
Jesus said He would raise His “physical body” from the dead.

you cannot interpret that away no matter how much you would like.

in addition, everything that mankind received from the apostles and their successors agrees that the tomb was empty because Jesus had raised Himself from the dead.

absolutely ANYONE can interpret the words of the apostles in a manner contrary to the meaning the apostles intended.

we see such man originated interpretations repeatedly throughout mankind’s history since the Resurrection of Jesus.

bahaullah is simply another man among many who does or did not believe Jesus when He said He would raise His physical body from the dead. ergo, the empty grave and the post-Resurrection encounters experienced by the people who experienced them.

there is no rational, logical, reasonable or tangible reason to believe that bahaullah knew more about what occurred at the time of Jesus than did the men Jesus spent three years living with and teaching.

like i said, there have been many, perhaps thousands, of men who have disputed what the apostles taught. many of them developed cults of self-aggrandizement among those people ignorant of the true gospel. bahaullah is NO different from those.

at least the bahai have not provided any logical, factual or historical reason to believe that bahaullah was different from the rest of those who aggrandized themselves by misinterpreting the words and actions of the apostles.

many others besides bahaullah have provided flowery words that have deceived ignorant people. that practice continues on today. charlatans trading on the name of Jesus happens far more often then most people realize.

if being able to bamboozle people with one’s words was all that was necessary to be sent by our Creator, there have been thousands of men who have done that.

why do the bahai believe that when Jesus said He would raise His physical body from the grave, as passed on by the people who heard Him, He did not mean His physical body would raise up and leave the tomb?

as near as i can tell from reading the bahai who have commented on this thread, the only reason they reject Jesus’ words is because bahaullah rejected them.

bahaullah provided no evidence that bahaullah’s understanding was accurate or correct.

asking people to reject the words of Jesus Himself and the words of the eye witnesses because bahaullah was clearly a man of God is foolishness to the nth degree.

 

[SteveVH]

i guess if you discard the notion of justice the concept of atonement is unnecessary.

Right on the money, eddie. This is really what it comes down to. I don’t believe the Baha’i have any idea of what they need to be saved from, therefore salvation is seen from the perspective of this earthly life; a reorganization of the world paradigm so that we can live in peace and harmony with all of our brothers and sisters. While this is certainly a laudable sentiment, it does not speak to the underlying cause of the suffering in this world; sin and evil. That is what must be defeated in order to bring peace and that is exactly what Christ has done. But his kingdom is not of this world.

 

[arthra]

Eddie wrote:

as near as i can tell from reading the bahai who have commented on this thread, the only reason they reject Jesus’ words is because bahaullah rejected them.

***I wouldn’t say Baha’is reject Jesus’ words… We may reject some of the interpretations of those words.

---

bahaullah provided no evidence that bahaullah’s understanding was accurate or correct.

*Baha’u’llah and Abdul-Baha both comment in a few places on the Gospel… It might be best to supply an example and discuss it perhaps.
*
asking people to reject the words of Jesus Himself and the words of the eye witnesses because bahaullah was clearly a man of God is foolishness to the nth degree.

***Again I wouldn’t ask you to reject the words that are attributed to Jesus… You can believe what you wish… **

 

[PRmerger]

That’s wonderful doormouse

If Jesus can work through us in any way that works for us then that is praiseworthy.

Then it appears that there is no reason, at all, to accept Bahaullah as a manifestation of God.

 

[arthra]

Right on the money, eddie. This is really what it comes down to. I don’t believe the Baha’i have any idea of what they need to be saved from, therefore salvation is seen from the perspective of this earthly life; a reorganization of the world paradigm so that we can live in peace and harmony with all of our brothers and sisters. While this is certainly a laudable sentiment, it does not speak to the underlying cause of the suffering in this world; sin and evil. That is what must be defeated in order to bring peace and that is exactly what Christ has done. But his kingdom is not of this world.

That’s certainly your view Steve…I have no problem with that.

“Salvation” for us is both personal and social … I’ll provide a few examples here:

In the Baha’i view salvation is both individual and social…hence our interest in improving society…

If the environment is oppressive the spiritual life can be impacted… The spiritual life on the other hand is necessary for there to be real progress…

*I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. **I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.

---

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 242

One word more in conclusion. The proclamation of the Oneness of Mankind – the head corner-stone of Bahá’u’lláh’s all-embracing dominion – can under no circumstances be compared with such expressions of pious hope as have been uttered in the past.

His is not merely a call which He raised, alone and unaided, in the face of the relentless and combined opposition of two of the most powerful Oriental potentates of His day- while Himself an exile and prisoner in their hands. It implies at once a warning and a promise – a warning that **in it lies the sole means for the salvation of a greatly suffering world, a promise that its realization is at hand.
**
28 November 1931 to the Bahá’ís of the West, published in “The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh: Selected Letters”, pp. 33-37, 40 43, 45-48)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 181)

Since it has been demonstrated that the instinct to worship is universal and has been associated with an infinite number of more or less temporary devotional practices, moral systems and social forms, there is no inherent reason why this instinct may not be reaffirmed in terms of loyalty to mankind and devotion to the cause of world unity on all levels. The God of humanity can no longer be expressed as a racial dominance nor as a national will to survive at all costs nor as a denominational gift of personal salvation. The pure revelation of God has been given humanity from age to age through His prophets and messengers. Secondary and limited formulas of religion prolong the moral crisis which blinds individuals to the assurance of a world era.
(Baha'i International Community, 1947 Feb, A Baha'i Declaration of Human Obligations and Rights)