Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[rinnie]

Except that almost every single proof that Bahaullah is Christ Returned has been laid out on these 3-4000 posts on the Bahai Faith.

Where’s Jose Luis’s proof and evidence? Is he from Elam? How is the number 1260 related to him? What about Daniel’s prophecy? How does he provide an “increase in government”? The list of questions go on and on and on…NOTHING from Jose!!

Ask these questions of Baha’u’llah and you have books and books of evidence and explanations and rational clarifications. Mr. Luis?

But you stick with argumentation PR.

Baha’is are not here to argue, and to be honest I’ve argued with you far too much, and to the detriment of my soul. Clinging onto a figure of speech where I say “every scholar” to mean literally “every single scholar” and defining scholar for me when it was evidently clarified that I meant university scholars, is clear evidence that you are trying to find every single fine hair that might deviate even a microscopic measure away from what you call truth…

Baha’is call this “trying to advance oneself over your brother” and “disputing idly”
I keep falling for this trap with you and I won’t any more simply because I can’t live my life ensuring that every single word of my posts are according to dictionary definitions and are undeniably the truth. That’s not a discussion.

But the problem here is you have Christ contradicting himself. Do you see what I am trying to say.

You say Baha. is Christ pretty much reincarnated. Yet you claim to reject reincarnation.

 

[PRmerger]

That is a choice one could make,

Of course.

Catholicism professes coercion of religious belief is to be rejected! It is always a choice we make.

 

[PRmerger]

From the perspective of a plant which says: “I have received sunlight 3 days ago. I have no need of further sunlight.” and then says to other plants, “What is the proof of the sun which you claim to be gathering sunlight from?”

And yet these plants are saying, “You don’t need this sunlight,friend. The light you received from the original sun is good, too.”

Why would I need to respect the current sunlight when the plants are telling me my old sun was just fine?

 

[doormouse73]

Except when doormouse says Jesus comes through the Eucharist, as a Catholic he or she means it literally which bahai totally must reject. Does Jesus even work for Christians in the grand scheme of things? It seems as if the church has fallen to the gates of hades.

Except when doormouse says Jesus comes through the Eucharist, as a Catholic he or she means it literally

that was my point,thank you IgnatianPhilo.

does baha or Bahaullah come to you in the flesh aswell as spirit, at any given time through the week or days?

 

[daler]

And yet these plants are saying, “You don’t need this sunlight,friend. The light you received from the original sun is good, too.”

Why would I need to respect the current sunlight when the plants are telling me my old sun was just fine?

PR
. Plants do thrive for awhile on the light of former days, but if you put a plant in a closet for a week or two, what happens? It is not a happy plant. The old sun shone fine in its day, but it only shined for a predetermined time, shedding only a finite amount of light. Yet over the course of the day, from its rising to its setting, if we study the motion of its rising and falling, and study the shadows it cast upon coming and going, from the very trajectories of these shadows we can foretell that it must rise again.

. The plants were not designed to be nourished solely on yesterdays portion, but to receive, each day, a fresh measure of light, according to the plan of God. These risings and settings are of the same sun, though it dawns in a slightly different point on the horizon each time. These variances do not mean that it is a different sun. It is the same sun, each day, which rises in the garb of a new name, from our perspective, but not the sun’s. For the sun, there are no days, and no nights.

. Saul did not believe in the Light of the New Sun until he was blinded by it. Overwhelmed by It finally, on the road to Damascus, he could no longer deny it. Saul became Paul. I can only testify to you that I have been on my own road to Damascus and have become so blinded by that dazzling Orb that to deny it would be to deny all the Prophets and Messengers of the past.

. Paul did not deny Moses and Abraham once he had found the Light of Truth dawning from the Horizon of Jesus, but rather he was confirmed all the more in their validity. It is the same for me, as the perspective on and the faith in Jesus became far greater and more acute when once I realized that Baha’u’llah was the One Whom Jesus had said was coming. They are One and the Same Sun rising on different days, each testifying to the Truth of the Other. This is how I see Them, with open eyes, as Paul, who is my spiritual brother, with whom I walk also, along with Tony, and Arthra, and Servant, and Nick, and countless others.

. You, too, are invited to walk this road, but no one is forcing you to come along. It is the same road Jesus walked, and it is not an easy road to walk, but it is the one we have chosen. Some say “I have walked enough. I am tired. I think I will set down for awhile.” That is quite well and good. Yesterday’s road has brought you a long way. Yesterday’s sun warmed you for awhile. Some of us enjoy the walk and have need of more time in the sun, soaking up its current rays, shining from yet another horizon…

. “Ye are all the leaves of one tree, and the fruits of just one branch. Glory not in this, that you love your country. Rather glory in this, that you love mankind…”

 

[eddie_too]

one thing that appears quite obvious is that neither bab, bahaullah nor any of there followers know much about the teachings of Jesus Christ.

i think that explains most of what the bahai write on this thread.

 

[daler]

But the problem here is you have Christ contradicting himself. Do you see what I am trying to say.

You say Baha. is Christ pretty much reincarnated. Yet you claim to reject reincarnation.

Rinnie,
. We reject reincarnation, but what is meant is that those qualities and attributes present in Christ are present in Baha’u’llah, just as those qualities and attributes manifest in Elijah appeared in John the Baptist. There is no contradiction when one understands this.

. Again, if we look at the rose which grew and blossomed this spring, it is not the same rose which appeared last year, or two years ago, or two thousand years ago. Not if we look at the specific identity of the physical qualities of this year’s rose and the former. Yet if we look at what this new Rose brings, it brings that same beauty and fragrance found in last year’s rose, or the one from two years ago, or two thousand years.

. What is important is that Christ has returned in the Glory of God, as promised.

, ““For the Son of man shall come in the Glory of his Father with his angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.” Matthew 16:27”

 

[SteveVH]

PR
. Plants do thrive for awhile on the light of former days, but if you put a plant in a closet for a week or two, what happens? It is not a happy plant. The old sun shone fine in its day, but it only shined for a predetermined time, shedding only a finite amount of light.

This assumes, wrongly, that the light of Christ is no longer shining. Jesus is the light that can never be extinguished and it was not a finite amount of light. This is the problem. You do not understand Who Jesus Christ really is. He is the Light. There is no other.

 

[eddie_too]

steve,

the bahai reject, pretty much in totality, the faith handed down to us by the apostles.

the bahai teach that Jesus got it all right, except where He said He would raise His physical body from the grave, but that everyone after Him got it wrong.

in reality, that is the way any charlatan would have to preach a new religion. joseph smith did the same thing. remember the mormon doctrine of the Great Apostasy?

ther is no way to profitably discuss or reason with someone who rejects everything you believe.

the bahai, whether they admit it or not, in this forum seeking converts.

that is why i use a, sometimes , blunt tone in my comments. i hope to help who might find the bahai fiction tantalizing to re-evaluate the bahai claims in light of the fact that the bahai totally reject the faith handed down to us by the apostles.

 

[daler]

This assumes, wrongly, that the light of Christ is no longer shining. Jesus is the light that can never be extinguished and it was not a finite amount of light. This is the problem. You do not understand Who Jesus Christ really is. He is the Light. There is no other.

Steve,
. May I ask if there is but one sun in the physical sky? And does it not rise and set? Does it not, each day, say: “I am the sun of yesterday. I have returned. Recognize me and receive my light.”

. When we go beyond the “Names” of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, we find that they are all the same day. When the astronauts go into space, they see only one sun. We also see only one sun.

. When the sun appeared to me yesterday, while walking on the beach, I got a little sun burned, as I did the day before while walking on another beach. It wasn’t a new sun just because it was a new day and another beach. It was the same sun returned and shining 24 hours later and no matter what beach I walked on. I could deny it at my own peril, and ignore the burning intensity of its rays, but those rays are still real. The proof comes later, when I find myself to be sunburned.

. The rays shed by the coming of Christ had an eternal effect upon the earth and the souls who walked it. That never goes away. His words, however, were tailored according to the capacity of humanity to receive Him, even as Moses gave only an allotted portion in His Day. It is the same Sun being reflected upon these Chosen Mirrors in a fresh measure each Dawn.

. Whether accepted or not is a matter of Faith. We call ourselves Jews, Christians, or Baha’is, it is the same Sun which burns away the veils of ignorance and blinds those who dare to stand against it, or oppose it, or deny it. “If” It is real, then It is real whether we accept it or turn away. There will always be some who turn away from Christ, as the Jews did, and refuse themselves the fresh measure of God’s light coming from the Burning Bush.

. There will always be some who deny Baha’u’llah, and that is quite alright, but were I one of those, I would at least hope that I had availed myself of examining the proofs and studying the verses without the veil of prejudice. Saul had this veil removed, and became Paul. He then preached that which he saw of the Light, which was the same Light which came to Moses, but in fuller measure.

 

[daler]

This assumes, wrongly, that the light of Christ is no longer shining. Jesus is the light that can never be extinguished and it was not a finite amount of light. This is the problem. You do not understand Who Jesus Christ really is. He is the Light. There is no other.

PS Steve, briefly, we would say that Christ is the “Lamp”, and there have been other Lamps, such as Moses, Abraham, David, and Noah, before Him. If the Jews said to Paul, Moses is the Light, I suspect he would identify Him as the Lamp, and that a new Lamp had appeared, bearing the same Light.

. As it is indeed the same Light which shines from God, we prefer to use the term “Mirror”, because the Mirror reflects the Light, and is not its Origin, even as Jesus said He was not the Origin of the Light in the following verse.

. John 14:24 “He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.”

. that Light shines forever. It does not cease to shine. But another Mirror appears and is shining with that same Light from the same Source. So you are right, that His Light does not cease to shine, but the Words revealed in the Bible, such as highlighted in the red letter editions, are quite finite in number.

. Through the Instruments of God’s will, the Words which have been uttered and written by Baha’u’llah are a great outpouring of the same Light, from the same Source, as was promised by Jesus when He spoke the words. “I have yet many things to say to you but ye cannot bear it now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you unto all truth.”

. Baha’u’llah is the fulfillment of this verse.

 

[arthra]

neither bab nor bahaullah have any historical connection to christianity as Jesus had to judaism. Jesus is a product of judaism. neither bab nor bahaullah is a product of christianity.

accordingly, there is no reason to believe that either bab or bahaullah are connected to the God of Abraham or to Jesus Christ in any significant manner.

bab and bahullah are even less related to the God of Abraham and Jesus than was mohammed or joseph smith and there connection is extraordinarily tenuous.

Hmmm. connection with the God of Abraham… Baha’is would claim that there is a connection.

Abraham, on Him be peace, made a covenant concerning Moses and gave the glad-tidings of His coming. Moses made a covenant concerning the promised Christ, and announced the good news of His advent to the world. Christ made a covenant concerning the Paraclete and gave the tidings of His coming. The Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning the Báb, and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of His coming. The Báb made a Covenant concerning the Blessed Beauty, Bahá’u’lláh, and gave the glad-tidings of His coming for the Blessed Beauty was the One promised by the Báb. Bahá’u’lláh made a covenant concerning a Promised One Who will 115 become manifest after one thousand or thousands of years.

~ 'Abdu’l-Bahá, from a Tablet - translated from the Persian, published in “Bahá’í World Faith” (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1976), p. 358)
(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 114)

So we would say that the connection is through the successive covenants…

 

[eddie_too]

interestingly enough, neither noah, nor abraham, nor moses, nor Jesus, nor mohammed ever claimed to be the manifestations that bahaullah claimed them to be.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. May I ask if there is but one sun in the physical sky? And does it not rise and set? Does it not, each day, say: “I am the sun of yesterday. I have returned. Recognize me and receive my light.”

No. Rather the sun says “I am the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. My light never ceases to shine. It is only your perception of me that changes. Believe that I still shine, even when you cannot see me”.

The moon reflects the rays of the sun and could therefore be called a certain kind of lamp or mirror. You believe Jesus is the moon. We believe Jesus is the sun, the origin of all light that is reflected in this world through his prophets and his people. He is the great “I AM”, not a mirror or reflection of the great “I AM”.

 

[Servant19]

Then it appears that there is no reason, at all, to accept Bahaullah as a manifestation of God.

…except that Jesus said nothing about the salvation of society as a collective body.

THAT’S why I’m a Bahai, individual AND social salvation.

 

[daler]

No. Rather the sun says “I am the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. My light never ceases to shine. It is only your perception of me that changes. Believe that I still shine, even when you cannot see me”.

The moon reflects the rays of the sun and could therefore be called a certain kind of lamp or mirror. You believe Jesus is the moon. We believe Jesus is the sun, the origin of all light that is reflected in this world through his prophets and his people. He is the great “I AM”, not a mirror or reflection of the great “I AM”.

Steve,
. We believe that that God is the Origin of that Light which Christ brings in the context Jesus uses His own Words when He says: “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.” So obviously we have a different sense of understanding as to the origin of the words given to humanity which Christ says are not His own.

. To “humanity”, the Manifestation of God “is” the origin of the Light, to “us”, for we cannot go to God but through His Manifestation, as in the words, “No man cometh to the Father but by Me”, which we regard as the station of the Manifestation. That is, no human can gain access to God but through Him Who is the Manifestation of God, and indeed He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

. God is not in competition with Himself. Nor are His Prophets, and there still seems to be a difference in understanding no matter how terms are used. We say that God sends forth the Manifestations of His Light, and when the words of God are “I am”, that these words spoken by the tongue of His Manifestation are certainly the words of God, but we do not refer to the Manifestation Himself as God. However, it is somewhat confusing, for depending on how you look at Him:

. “Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God”, He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world…”

. So the One Who speaks these words, in my understanding, is God Himself, speaking to humanity through the One we call His Mouthpiece, while understanding at the same time that this created One (His Manifestation) is not the Creator. Either one understands this or does not, I suppose, but for Baha’is, in referring to God, we believe that “He doeth what He willeth”

. Concerning the uniqueness of Bahá’u’lláh’s station and the greatness of His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi affirms that the prophetic statements concerning the “Day of God”, found in the Sacred Scriptures of past Dispensations, are fulfilled by the advent of Bahá’u’lláh:

. “To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father”, the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father”; to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.”

 

[Servant19]

But the problem here is you have Christ contradicting himself. Do you see what I am trying to say.

You say Baha. is Christ pretty much reincarnated. Yet you claim to reject reincarnation.

Hi sister rinnie,

No, it’s no more reincarnation as John the Baptist was the return of Elijah.

If we think about how John the Baptist was Elijah returned one would gain much insight into how Bahaullah was Christ Returned

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

My two questions have not been answered.

How do you establish that the early church was corrupted (by which a manifestation was needed)?

What is the word? An abstract concept? A distinct substance apart from God? Or God himself? Or something else?

Why can’t we say the 1000 year prophecy was a metaphore? After all bahai declare when Jesus said “I am not a ghost, for ghosts do not eat,” a metaphore in the gospel of Luke. It seems to me perfectly reasonable that you have misunderstood your prophet just like Christians corrupted Chistianity (somehow).

 

[Servant19]

that was my point,thank you IgnatianPhilo.

does baha or Bahaullah come to you in the flesh aswell as spirit, at any given time through the week or days?

God is a spirit doormouse, as verified in the New Teatament. When communing and uniting ourselves with Him, we utilize our spiritual aspects and have no need for the flesh.

Only the human spirit attains eternal life, that which is flesh is flesh, and decomposes just like all other flesh. The spirit is made of another, ethereal, eternal substance. It does not rely on anything physical or fleshy.

 

[Servant19]

one thing that appears quite obvious is that neither bab, bahaullah nor any of there followers know much about the teachings of Jesus Christ.

i think that explains most of what the bahai write on this thread.

What specifically are you referring to here Eddie?