Remarriage and Leaving the Church

[larry85704]

The problem with divorce and remarriage is that one cannot objectively confess and repent without removing the impediment of the prior marriage and convalidating. Therefore one leaves the confessional still in a state of objective mortal sin. This is why none of your parallels work.  
Yesterday 11:33 pm

Oops, who is being the cafeteria Catholic here, me or you? I thought that you cannot receive Communion if you have committed a mortal sin and have not received the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, done your penance, made a sincere commitment not to do it again and received forgiveness.

I’ve also been told that there are objectively grave sins that if you commit them, even out of ignorance, you have committed a mortal sin. Honestly, I am not sure about that last part. But anyway, lets take birth control for example. Now you are not supposed to use birth control. Suppose you go to Church on Sunday, after going to Confession on Saturday and receive Communion. Sunday night you have sex with your spouse, whom you are validly married to in the Catholic Church. But you use a rubber. Now you knew you were going to use that rubber before you received Communion and before you went to Confession. I believe you were never forgiven from the mortal sin of using birth control on Saturday. You should not receive Communion on Sunday.

Birth control is a simple case because many traditional Catholics are well aware that it is not acceptable. But if you agree with my statements concerning birth control then I would ask you if there was any difference between the couple receiving Communion that were living in sin because of adultery and the couple living in sin because of birth control?

I am not married and do not use birth control, so I have no great agenda here.

But, if my reasoning is correct, how can anyone go to Communion?

Truely, the Catholic Church has many, many rules on the books that state something is a mortal sin. As a Catholic we should be bound by all of them, not just the ones that we can use to make others feel bad. We can claim ignorance, but with the availability of the internet, ignorance is not a valid defense. If it is your eternal soul on the line, why not read the Catechism, Canon Law and Scripture?

On the other hand, there is the story of Jesus reaching out to sinners. He did that several times. Gosh, I think my pastor did it on Sunday. Are not we suppoased to do that? Do we reach out to sinners by telling them they are not good enough to receive Communion? Especially when by our own rules we are no better?

 

[catharina]

It is true that many Catholics, as this thread proves, have no place in their hearts for a divorced person. These are quotes from individuals that have never experienced the emotional devastation of being abandoned by a spouse & then being abandoned by Catholics as yourself who judged them without any experience with heart ache involved. The best part is that Jesus never abandoned me. He healed my heart.

I ask that you read John 9:1-18, Mark 3:1-6 . They address the self-righteousness and the judgment contained in this thread.

This whole thread is filled with I am holier than you. You are only lucky that you have not experienced it. Judge only your actions. It is God’s job to judge mine.

I will never leave the Catholic Church. I went to Catholic grade school, high school, and graduated from a Catholic college. I will die Catholic and enter heaven as Catholic. I hope to see you there. Please don’t jeopardize your chance by being a harsh judge of other lest you miss the plank in your own. May God bless you and soften your heart.

There is nothing self-righteous or self-serving
about defining and explaining the teachings of the Church.

Hope you will work on grasping that fact.

 

[marica_mandic]

No such thing as a Church divorce.

You may be thinking of an “annulment” – which is a determination by the Church that a valid marriage did not exist in the first place.

Yes I meen that .Thank you.
That if he can get it.
If he can not get it, the best is God law, no matter how hard.

 

[joanofarc2008]

The problem with divorce and remarriage is that one cannot objectively confess and repent without removing the impediment of the prior marriage and convalidating. Therefore one leaves the confessional still in a state of objective mortal sin. This is why none of your parallels work.  
Yesterday 11:33 pm

Oops, who is being the cafeteria Catholic here, me or you? I thought that you cannot receive Communion if you have committed a mortal sin and have not received the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, done your penance, made a sincere commitment not to do it again and received forgiveness.

I’ve also been told that there are objectively grave sins that if you commit them, even out of ignorance, you have committed a mortal sin. Honestly, I am not sure about that last part. But anyway, lets take birth control for example. Now you are not supposed to use birth control. Suppose you go to Church on Sunday, after going to Confession on Saturday and receive Communion. Sunday night you have sex with your spouse, whom you are validly married to in the Catholic Church. But you use a rubber. Now you knew you were going to use that rubber before you received Communion and before you went to Confession. I believe you were never forgiven from the mortal sin of using birth control on Saturday. You should not receive Communion on Sunday.

Birth control is a simple case because many traditional Catholics are well aware that it is not acceptable. But if you agree with my statements concerning birth control then I would ask you if there was any difference between the couple receiving Communion that were living in sin because of adultery and the couple living in sin because of birth control?

I am not married and do not use birth control, so I have no great agenda here.

But, if my reasoning is correct, how can anyone go to Communion?

Truely, the Catholic Church has many, many rules on the books that state something is a mortal sin. As a Catholic we should be bound by all of them, not just the ones that we can use to make others feel bad. We can claim ignorance, but with the availability of the internet, ignorance is not a valid defense. If it is your eternal soul on the line, why not read the Catechism, Canon Law and Scripture?

On the other hand, there is the story of Jesus reaching out to sinners. He did that several times. Gosh, I think my pastor did it on Sunday. Are not we suppoased to do that? Do we reach out to sinners by telling them they are not good enough to receive Communion? Especially when by our own rules we are no better?

Actually if one does not know it becomes a venial sin by definition and then is absolved through the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Why you would call me a Cafeteria Catholic I have no idea - I am not dating, I am divorced, I am upholding the Church teaching. I participate in the Sacrament of Penance every 2-4 weeks. So what is it about me and my behavior that bothers you? Is it that the bar has been set too high and that you cannot point the finger at me and tell me I don’t know what it is like because I do?

 

[catharina]

**1. But is a person who does not get a decree of nullity necessarily sinning if they choose to date and remarry in another church? ** I mean, can’t a tribunal make a mistake when judging whether or not a marriage was valid? If they are wrong, and 2. the person asking for an annulment truly believes that they are wrong and have misjudged the facts of the case for whatever reason, then they may choose to leave the Church in order to get remarried out of sheer desperation. The tribunal doesn’t MAKE a marriage valid or invalid.

1. Yes
2. An individual can NOT substitute his/her own judgment for that of the Church.

 

[catharina]

But there are cases where a party may very well lie, give false testimony, or oppose the annulment out of sheer spite or malice. I’m sure this has happened before. I gave testimony in my mother’s annulment and I assure you, it would have been quite easy for me to lie in my written testimony. It’s not like an in-depth investigation takes place. They read the testimonies and decide.

Again, the tribunal doesn’t MAKE a marriage valid or invalid. I’m sure there have been cases where the tribunal has judged wrongly. If that is true, there would be no adultery.

Repeating yourself doesn’t change a thing.

The Church has authority over the matter.
We do not have that authority.

 

[catharina]

Precisely. There are people out there (like abusive “husbands” or jealous “wives” or even children who favor one parent over another, for example) who would do or say ANYTHING to keep a person from getting an annulment. It’s not as if you have a lawyer or an advocate who is paid to find evidence and plead your case. You fill out the questionnaires, they look at them and render a decision, which takes YEARS and is final. I’m not sure if there is an appeal process or not to be honest.

I don’t think that God would judge a person too harshly who KNOWS their marriage to be invalid but received a negative response to their annulment request because of circumstances like the one above for marrying outside the Church and continuing to receive the sacraments anyway.

More of the same. The individual does not “out-rank” the Church.
There aren’t exceptions to the rule regarding “refused annulments.”

 

[joanofarc2008]

Repeating yourself doesn’t change a thing.

The Church has authority over the matter.
We do not have that authority.

Also if someone really feels that the Tribunal judged wrongly they always have the right and privelege of appealing to Rome.

 

[catharina]

… Ultimately, we must trust that God is in control, and give the Tribunal this trust.

YES.

 

[catharina]

In cases such as these when there appear to be two almost completely different stories of the marriage - tribunals have ways of sorting these things out including in person interviews and psychological evaluations. It is not something that is done without discernment.

YES.

 

[catharina]

The problem with divorce and remarriage is that one cannot objectively confess and repent without removing the impediment of the prior marriage and convalidating. Therefore one leaves the confessional still in a state of objective mortal sin. This is why none of your parallels work.  
Yesterday 11:33 pm

Oops, who is being the cafeteria Catholic here, me or you? I thought that you cannot receive Communion if you have committed a mortal sin and have not received the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, done your penance, made a sincere commitment not to do it again and received forgiveness.

I’ve also been told that there are objectively grave sins that if you commit them, even out of ignorance, you have committed a mortal sin. Honestly, I am not sure about that last part. But anyway, lets take birth control for example. Now you are not supposed to use birth control. Suppose you go to Church on Sunday, after going to Confession on Saturday and receive Communion. Sunday night you have sex with your spouse, whom you are validly married to in the Catholic Church. But you use a rubber. Now you knew you were going to use that rubber before you received Communion and before you went to Confession. I believe you were never forgiven from the mortal sin of using birth control on Saturday. You should not receive Communion on Sunday.

Birth control is a simple case because many traditional Catholics are well aware that it is not acceptable. But if you agree with my statements concerning birth control then I would ask you if there was any difference between the couple receiving Communion that were living in sin because of adultery and the couple living in sin because of birth control?

I am not married and do not use birth control, so I have no great agenda here.

But, if my reasoning is correct, how can anyone go to Communion?

Truely, the Catholic Church has many, many rules on the books that state something is a mortal sin. As a Catholic we should be bound by all of them, not just the ones that we can use to make others feel bad. We can claim ignorance, but with the availability of the internet, ignorance is not a valid defense. If it is your eternal soul on the line, why not read the Catechism, Canon Law and Scripture?

On the other hand, there is the story of Jesus reaching out to sinners. He did that several times. Gosh, I think my pastor did it on Sunday. Are not we suppoased to do that? **Do we reach out to sinners by telling them they are not good enough to receive Communion? **Especially when by our own rules we are no better?

The Church tells them that.

Please! Are you suggesting that everyone in a parish
is in a state of mortal sin? That’s ridiculous.

Also, you are officially way-off-topic.

 

[EvelynEVF]

We can’t commit mortal sin by accident. That said, I’m sure there are still some people who receive when they should not. The fact that they do, doesn’t make a bit of difference in my own decision process. I apologize for my rant yesterday. I am very frustrated that there are so few models of heroic virtue out there, and sometimes it feels like either people can’t figure out why i would go to the trouble of remaining faithful to the Church, or think that if it’s really hard and somebody caves, it’s just not that big of a deal.

Oh, and once a tribunal makes a decision which is ratified by a higher tribunal, the case is closed, so it shouldn’t be possible to make it last forever unless someone really, truly has new evidence. This was pointed out to me with a quote from canon law, and it was a great relief.

 

[catharina]

**We can’t commit mortal sin by accident. **

**Major point and very well-said. **

That said, I’m sure there are still some people who receive when they should not. The fact that they do, doesn’t make a bit of difference in my own decision process. I apologize for my rant yesterday. I am very frustrated that there are so few models of heroic virtue out there, and sometimes it feels like either people can’t figure out why i would go to the trouble of remaining faithful to the Church, or think that if it’s really hard and somebody caves, it’s just not that big of a deal.

Oh, and once a tribunal makes a decision which is ratified by a higher tribunal, the case is closed, so it shouldn’t be possible to make it last forever unless someone really, truly has new evidence. This was pointed out to me with a quote from canon law, and it was a great relief.

 

[joanofarc2008]

We can’t commit mortal sin by accident. That said, I’m sure there are still some people who receive when they should not. The fact that they do, doesn’t make a bit of difference in my own decision process. I apologize for my rant yesterday. I am very frustrated that there are so few models of heroic virtue out there, and sometimes it feels like either people can’t figure out why i would go to the trouble of remaining faithful to the Church, or think that if it’s really hard and somebody caves, it’s just not that big of a deal.

Oh, and once a tribunal makes a decision which is ratified by a higher tribunal, the case is closed, so it shouldn’t be possible to make it last forever unless someone really, truly has new evidence. This was pointed out to me with a quote from canon law, and it was a great relief.

It’s CAF - we all get at least one rant per week - J/K!!

And no we simply cannot let other’s decisions justify our own actions - after all imagine if Lot’s family had not done the right thing with their two angelic guests - No Moabites, No Ammonites. Interesting take on history.

 

[catharina]

It’s CAF - we all get at least one rant per week - J/K!!

Sort of brilliant.

Maybe there could be a new forum: Rants Only.
Except CA might have to hire many new mods.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Sort of brilliant.

Maybe there could be a new forum: Rants Only.
Except CA might have to hire many new mods.

Hey 25% of the time CAF is my reason for Confession - 25% of time it’s Facebook - 50% of the time is none of anyone’s business.

 

[catharina]

Hey 25% of the time CAF is my reason for Confession - 25% of time it’s Facebook - 50% of the time is none of anyone’s business.

I get it. Seriously, last winter, I removed myself
from CA for several months since I was feeling so
continuously riled up. The break did me a lot of good!

 

[joanofarc2008]

I get it. Seriously, last winter, I removed myself
from CA for several months since I was feeling so
continuously riled up. The break did me a lot of good!

Thats why we have the Annulment and Divorce group - so people can get support without having to defend the process.

 

[larry85704]

Is it that the bar has been set too high and that you cannot point the finger at me and tell me I don’t know what it is like because I do?

I have no interest in pointing the finger at you or anybody.

What I am doing is pointing out that Catholics have rules. Lots of rules. So many rules that most Catholics never heard of them. One of the rules is that you don’t go to Communion if you are in the state of Mortal Sin. This does not apply to you. It applies to everybody.

I ask what is the difference between someone going to Communion in the state of mortal sin, for whatever the reason, and someone going to Communion because they are divorced and remarried? In truth, there is no difference.

I know that the separation from a spouse is a terrible thing. People sometimes do some pretty stupid things after a divorce or a death perhaps because they are in so much pain. Personally, I think the Church should find some way to help the divorced and widowed and I pray that in someplaces they do.

I find it to be a load of **** that a priest would tell you to get a divorce, for whatever reason, and then not have the annulment granted by the time the divorce is final. I am well aware that people get divorced because the priest, or deacon, told them to. The priest is acting in the best interest of the Church and the person. It is not always sinful to get a divorce and I feel it may be sinful to stay in a marriage, depending on the circumstances.

And I believe it is true that Catholics leave the Church because they feel like they are not ____, after a divorce, or surprisingly, a death… You can choose whatever word you want, “not good enough”, “an outcast”, “not worthy”. How do you feel about going to Mass without your wife for the first time since she died and seeing all the couples around you holding hands? I doubt if you are ready to go party. I have seen men crying in Church because of just that. What did most people do. Nothing, except try not to stare. Me, I went up and put my arm around him and asked what was wrong. He told me. Sadly, I never saw him again.

I think if people would realize that they go to Communion in a state of mortal sin all the time they should be a little more charitable. And, if you claim to be a Catholic, you cannot claim ignorance. Even ignorance of sin does not make the sin a good thing. So, you are doing something harmful to you, agreed without your knowledge, but still harmful. It is in your best interest to learn what is sinful, and what is not.

By the way, I do not believe, as many of the people that contribute to this forum do, that it is easy to commit a mortal sin. I believe that to be in a state of mortal sin you must have choosen to sever your relationship with God permanently. You know, married couples have fights. They may be nasty fights, but they don’t get a divorce. Well, I think a grave sin is like a nasty fight. While it certainly can lead to a mortal sin (divorce) it doesn’t have too. But that is just me.

joanofarc2008 you are going through a difficult time. You are to be applauded for following the teachings of the Church. I don’t think you are a cafeteria Catholic. I wish you happiness and peace in Jesus Christ.

 

[joanofarc2008]

What I am doing is pointing out that Catholics have rules. Lots of rules. So many rules that most Catholics never heard of them. One of the rules is that you don’t go to Communion if you are in the state of Mortal Sin. This does not apply to you. It applies to everybody.

Here is the premise of everything you just said - and here is where is you are wrong. We don’t have that many rules. We have that many people that wish not to properly catechize themselves so as to live in a state of ignorance because that is easier.

Yes divorce is hard - but I have never known a priest to say that just because one divorces one can remarry. That is never guaranteed. As a matter of fact it is one of those things that is made VERY VERY clear in marriage prep. So very simply if one is not sure they should not get married. The decision to get married should be treated with the same discernment as the decision to become an ordained priest or member of a religious community. They are both vocations.**

Most just don’t treat them with the same seriousness until it suits them to do so.

Thank you for your kind words but it is hard to see from the other side until you have been through the discernment process and no how many times these things get said.

You are right though people do need to be more kind - the Church does state the teaching’s of Christ and insist that we live by them.

God bless.