Remarriage and Leaving the Church

[EvelynEVF]

Thoughfulone, the priest who advocates ABC is not the Church, and we know it because he is dissenting from the magisterium. If someone defies the Tribunal, that person is defying the magisterium, because that’s where the Tribunal gets their authority.

I would feel sympathy for a person so desperately lonely that they would obediently not date until the Tribunal rendered judgment and there was an appeal, but then crack and date and marry even with a negative judgment. Part of me wonders, though, whether a person who really and truly determined to be obedient, who received the sacraments really frequently and was close to Jesus, would be willing to stick their finger in His eye and turn away in the end.

now, a person who dated during the process? Totally I could see it. And that’s the #1 reason people shouldn’t date in the process, besides the fact that married people don’t date. it’s the top of a really slippery slope.

Obedience is a virtue, even when it sucks. A tribunal never declares a marriage valid. It just says we don’t have enough evidence to declare it invalid.

I am 100% convinced that my marriage is invalid on about five different grounds and I will fight as hard as a can to help the Tribunal see that. If worse comes to worse, God forbid, I will live like a contemplative nun, because I sure don’t need to get anywhere near that slippery slope.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Thoughfulone, the priest who advocates ABC is not the Church, and we know it because he is dissenting from the magisterium. If someone defies the Tribunal, that person is defying the magisterium, because that’s where the Tribunal gets their authority.

I would feel sympathy for a person so desperately lonely that they would obediently not date until the Tribunal rendered judgment and there was an appeal, but then crack and date and marry even with a negative judgment. Part of me wonders, though, whether a person who really and truly determined to be obedient, who received the sacraments really frequently and was close to Jesus, would be willing to stick their finger in His eye and turn away in the end.

now, a person who dated during the process? Totally I could see it. And that’s the #1 reason people shouldn’t date in the process, besides the fact that married people don’t date. it’s the top of a really slippery slope.

Obedience is a virtue, even when it sucks. A tribunal never declares a marriage valid. It just says we don’t have enough evidence to declare it invalid.

I am 100% convinced that my marriage is invalid on about five different grounds and I will fight as hard as a can to help the Tribunal see that. If worse comes to worse, God forbid, I will live like a contemplative nun, because I sure don’t need to get anywhere near that slippery slope.

Your obedience s truly admirable Evelyn!

I think that in general, the process has a few flaws. For example, I KNOW my marriage to be valid. We were dating since we were 17. We are both cradle Catholics. We were both confirmed together as adults and had decent (but not great) marriage preparation. We became engaged 10 years after we started dating and then had to go through an exhaustive process to be approved for marriage in the Vatican at St. Peter’s Basilica. Our marriage is as valid as they come.

And YET, I feel that with some eloquent answers to some questions and enough time to formulate a compelling case, I could probably obtain a decree of nullity without actually lying. I think that by emphasizing certain things and de-emphasizing others and writing some intelligent and thoughtful answers (as well as knowing the ins and outs of what they are looking for), it might not be that hard. I really hope I am wrong.

The process should be more like a trial in my opinion, where you have to show up and plead your case and answer some tough questions on the spot from a trained canon lawyer. I think that this would help to weed out people who are obviously lying or have a vested interest in seeing that an annulment either does or does not happen.

I think that having the whole process take place in writing is just asking for people to either exaggerate or outright lie, giving them a chance to carefully form their words and ideas. I think few people would be willing to show up in person and be untruthful to a tribunal of priests and marriage experts.

If marriage is as holy as the Church claims (which I believe it is) then the annulment process should be more respectful of that.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I agree that far too many annulments are given out. And there are very suspicious circumstances in too many of the very high profile cases.

But is that more a fault of the marriage preparation process (where they are too lax in checking for impediments and in assuring that sufficient knowledge is present to assure full consent) or is that a fault of the tribunal process (where they discover that impediments did, in fact, exist or that consent was not fully given in assessing that the marriage was not valid)?

I agree with this. I think that both marriage preparation and the annulment process have some flaws that need to be worked out. Also,if the Church is serious about the contraception issue, NFP classes should be a mandatory part of the preparation in my opinion, not just a “suggestion” followed by a 20-minute video. I think a lot more people would use NFP if they were required to take the classes and could be confident in its effectiveness.

 

[markomalley]

I agree with this. I think that both marriage preparation and the annulment process have some flaws that need to be worked out. Also,if the Church is serious about the contraception issue, NFP classes should be a mandatory part of the preparation in my opinion, not just a “suggestion” followed by a 20-minute video. I think a lot more people would use NFP if they were required to take the classes and could be confident in its effectiveness.

Agreed. It would also help to hear about it from the pulpit every few months. I think I’ve heard one or maybe, maybe, maybe two homilies about it in the 10 years I’ve been in my current parish. And never in my previous parish.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Thoughfulone, some dioceses do make you show up in person and answer questions from a canon lawyer, on the spot. If mine routinely did that, there would be a judgment of nullity after they spent about ten minutes with my ex

It is sad and frustrating to me that there is so much variation in tribunals, at least from the anecdotes I have heard and read. If I had gotten a rubber-stamped decree from some of the tribunals I’ve read about, I would always wonder, I think; I believe that my marriage was invalid, but I would wonder if they really thought so or just didn’t give a rip.

It helps me to know that the judge in my case is known personally to a few of my witnesses as being really serious about his position and the judgments he hands down.

Aand while I very much appreciate the sentiment and the encouragement, obedience isn’t admirable. It’s just normal, yk? It’s supposed to be the default position.

 

[catharina]

Thoughfulone, some dioceses do make you show up in person and answer questions from a canon lawyer, on the spot. If mine routinely did that, there would be a judgment of nullity after they spent about ten minutes with my ex

It is sad and frustrating to me that there is so much variation in tribunals, at least from the anecdotes I have heard and read. If I had gotten a rubber-stamped decree from some of the tribunals I’ve read about, I would always wonder, I think; I believe that my marriage was invalid, but I would wonder if they really thought so or just didn’t give a rip.

It helps me to know that the judge in my case is known personally to a few of my witnesses as being really serious about his position and the judgments he hands down.

Aand while I very much appreciate the sentiment and the encouragement, obedience isn’t admirable. It’s just normal, yk? It’s supposed to be the default position.

Yes. Obedience must be the default position.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Yes. Obedience must be the default position.

Thank you

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Aand while I very much appreciate the sentiment and the encouragement, obedience isn’t admirable. It’s just normal, yk? It’s supposed to be the default position.

Well if that were true, we would have no need for Jesus Christ

 

[EvelynEVF]

YIKES! You give a Franciscan convulsions!

Seriously, I’m sure what you meant to convey was that if we could all manage to be perfect, we wouldn’t have needed Jesus’ sacrifice.

But what it sounds like you’re saying, in context, is that by choosing to submit myself to the authority of the Church, and by arranging my life so as to make that easier rather than harder, I am somehow diminishing the Incarnation. St. Paul anticipated that one, asking “Shall I sin, that grace may abound the more? By no means!”

Yep, we all sin. Yep, we all suffer from consupiscence. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t fight with all we’ve got to cooperate with the grace of God!

 

[PJM]

=Thoughtfulone;7796836]But is a person who does not get a decree of nullity necessarily sinning if they choose to date and remarry in another church? I mean, can’t a tribunal make a mistake when judging whether or not a marriage was valid? If they are wrong, and the person asking for an annulment truly believes that they are wrong and have misjudged the facts of the case for whatever reason, then they may choose to leave the Church in order to get remarried out of sheer desperation. The tribunal doesn’t MAKE a marriage valid or invalid.

In an ABSOLUTE Sense: 'The Church" cannot error in her teachings on Faith beliefs and or Morals and Morallity"

**Matt.16:19 " I [Jesus] will [Did /Have/ Done Deal] give you [Peter and My Church] the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[ALL of THEM] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." ** Means what the Church Teaches on Faith and Morals can’t be in error.]

John 14: 16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, [The Holy Spirit] to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

John.17: 15 to 19 "I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that **thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. ** **Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. **[18] As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. [As the Father sent the Son; God as God in power and righteousness; so I send my Cchurch] [19] ***And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. ***

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith,** [Meaning only One set of beliefs[/COLOR]] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

AND PLEASE READ THIS WITH UTMOST CARE:

**Heb. 6: 4-8 **“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [Catholic Confirmation: a PERSONAL-Covenant promise to God] who have tasted the heavenly gift,[Jesus Himself in Catholic Holy Communion] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [Catholic baptism] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [Been taught the Bible TRUTHS] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.”

The ONLY UNFORGIVEABLE SIN IS FENIAL OF GOD: BUT ONE WHO THINKS THIS IS NOT PRECISELY WHAT HAPPENS IN EXODUSING THE CC; MAKES A FATAL ERROR. Christ and His CC are One and the same TRUTH.

Be careful what you encourage friends; souls are at risk.

God Bless,
Pat**

 

[BrushedByAngels]

What the church needs to do is have the tribunal ask every question of the potential newlyweds the same questions that make it grounds for annulment. Better this than have a couple live in sin thinking they are in a valid marriage.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

YIKES! You give a Franciscan convulsions!

Seriously, I’m sure what you meant to convey was that if we could all manage to be perfect, we wouldn’t have needed Jesus’ sacrifice.

But what it sounds like you’re saying, in context, is that by choosing to submit myself to the authority of the Church, and by arranging my life so as to make that easier rather than harder, I am somehow diminishing the Incarnation. St. Paul anticipated that one, asking “Shall I sin, that grace may abound the more? By no means!”

Yep, we all sin. Yep, we all suffer from consupiscence. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t fight with all we’ve got to cooperate with the grace of God!

Haha! Of course that’s what I meant

 

[Thoughtfulone]

In an ABSOLUTE Sense: 'The Church" cannot error in her teachings on Faith beliefs and or Morals and Morallity"

**Matt.16:19 " I [Jesus] will [Did /Have/ Done Deal] give you [Peter and My Church] the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[ALL of THEM] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." ** Means what the Church Teaches on Faith and Morals can’t be in error.]

John 14: 16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, [The Holy Spirit] to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

John.17: 15 to 19 "I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that **thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. ** **Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. **[18] As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. [As the Father sent the Son; God as God in power and righteousness; so I send my Cchurch] [19] ***And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. ***

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith,** [Meaning only One set of beliefs[/COLOR]**] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

AND PLEASE READ THIS WITH UTMOST CARE:

**Heb. 6: 4-8 **“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [Catholic Confirmation: a PERSONAL-Covenant promise to God] who have tasted the heavenly gift,[Jesus Himself in Catholic Holy Communion] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [Catholic baptism] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [Been taught the Bible TRUTHS] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.”

The ONLY UNFORGIVEABLE SIN IS FENIAL OF GOD: BUT ONE WHO THINKS THIS IS NOT PRECISELY WHAT HAPPENS IN EXODUSING THE CC; MAKES A FATAL ERROR. Christ and His CC are One and the same TRUTH.

Be careful what you encourage friends; souls are at risk.

God Bless,
Pat

The decision of a marriage tribunal is not a teaching of “the Church” on faith and morals, otherwise, they would never be wrong.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Brushedbyangels, I like your idea! I have friends whose dad/fil worked with a tribunal. When they got engaged, he had already seen so many horror stories that he really put them through the wringer before they got married.

 

[davidv]

The decision of a marriage tribunal is not a teaching of “the Church” on faith and morals, otherwise, they would never be wrong.

So? Why does it have to be infallibe? It is a binding decision made an official body who have been given the authority to make the decisions that come before them. As they preform an official Church function you are bound to their decision, just like you are to you pastor or bishop.
Right, wrong or indifferent, their decision stands unless overruled by an appeal.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

So? Why does it have to be infallibe? It is a binding decision made an official body who have been given the authority to make the decisions that come before them. As they preform an official Church function you are bound to their decision, just like you are to you pastor or bishop.
Right, wrong or indifferent, their decision stands unless overruled by an appeal.

I just didn’t appreciate the implication that I was in any way CLOSE to blaspheming the Holy Spirit by asserting that a tribunal might make a poor decision regarding the validity of a marriage.

 

[catharina]

I just didn’t appreciate the implication that I was in any way CLOSE to blaspheming the Holy Spirit by asserting that a tribunal might make a poor decision regarding the validity of a marriage.

Who ever implied that?
(Other than yourself, at this moment?)

I doubt that it enetered anyone’s mind!

BTW, the point of this thread:
poor decision or great decision,
the decision of the Tribunal stands,
unless/until it’s overturned

 

[Thoughtfulone]

So? Why does it have to be infallibe? It is a binding decision made an official body who have been given the authority to make the decisions that come before them. As they preform an official Church function you are bound to their decision, just like you are to you pastor or bishop.
Right, wrong or indifferent, their decision stands unless overruled by an appeal.

That’s the point of this thread. It is the rigidity and impersonal nature of the Church regarding these matters and the extremely flawed annulment process which leads some Catholics to become despondent and leave the Church. The process clearly needs to be updated and homogenized to ensure better judgments by the tribunals.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Who ever implied that?
(Other than yourself, at this moment?)

I doubt that it enetered anyone’s mind!

BTW, the point of this thread:
poor decision or great decision,
the decision of the Tribunal stands,
unless/until it’s overturned

PJM did, when he said,

AND PLEASE READ THIS WITH UTMOST CARE:

Heb. 6: 4-8 “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [Catholic Confirmation: a PERSONAL-Covenant promise to God] who have tasted the heavenly gift,[Jesus Himself in Catholic Holy Communion] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [Catholic baptism] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [Been taught the Bible TRUTHS] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.”

The ONLY UNFORGIVEABLE SIN IS FENIAL OF GOD: BUT ONE WHO THINKS THIS IS NOT PRECISELY WHAT HAPPENS IN EXODUSING THE CC; MAKES A FATAL ERROR. Christ and His CC are One and the same TRUTH.

 

[catharina]

That’s the point of this thread. It is the rigidity and impersonal nature of the Church regarding these matters and the extremely flawed annulment process which leads some Catholics to become despondent and leave the Church. The process clearly needs to be updated and homogenized to ensure better judgments by the tribunals.

People who leave the Church do so for any reason or for no reason at all.

It seems that some Catholics do not grasp the simple fact that we are called to
live a sacrificial life and that can unfold for people in any variety of ways. To blame
the Church is to undervalue the grace of God that is with us to endure suffering.