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catharina
Guest
He/she quoted Scripture and he/she stated the truth.
He accused you of nothing. He implied nothing regarding you.
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He accused you of nothing. He implied nothing regarding you.
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ANNE_2
Guest
About the original post -
It is a very sad situation when divorced and remarried people want to come back to the Church (perhaps after years), and one or both can not have their original marriage annulled.
In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ - “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery”.
The Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was.
If the divorced are remarried civilly, they find themselves in a situation that objectively contravenes God’s law. Consequently, they cannot receive Eucharistic communion as long as this situation persists.
For the same reason, they cannot exercise certain ecclesial responsibilities.
Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have repented for having violated the sign of the covenant and of fidelity to Christ, and who are committed to living in complete continence.”
The Church can not change what God requires in the words of Jesus. See Mk 10:11-12
OUR Responsibility toward these persons - - -
CCC - 1651 Toward Christians who live in this situation, and who often keep the faith and desire to bring up their children in a Christian manner, priests and the whole community must manifest an attentive solicitude, so that they do not consider themselves separated from the Church, in whose life they can and must participate as baptized persons:
They should be encouraged to listen to the Word of God, to attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, to persevere in prayer, to contribute to works of charity and to community efforts for justice, to bring up their children in the Christian faith, to cultivate the spirit and practice of penance and thus implore, day by day, God’s grace. "
It is a very sad situation when divorced and remarried people want to come back to the Church (perhaps after years), and one or both can not have their original marriage annulled.
- They are still Catholics.
- They still have the right and obligation to attend Mass and follow the teachings of the Church. But they may not receive Holy Communion.
- They have another option listed in the CCC.
If both agree they truly want to place God above all, and want to receive the Sacraments, they can commit to living as brother and sister until an annulment is approved or their original spouses die.
In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ - “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery”.
The Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was.
If the divorced are remarried civilly, they find themselves in a situation that objectively contravenes God’s law. Consequently, they cannot receive Eucharistic communion as long as this situation persists.
For the same reason, they cannot exercise certain ecclesial responsibilities.
Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have repented for having violated the sign of the covenant and of fidelity to Christ, and who are committed to living in complete continence.”
The Church can not change what God requires in the words of Jesus. See Mk 10:11-12
OUR Responsibility toward these persons - - -
CCC - 1651 Toward Christians who live in this situation, and who often keep the faith and desire to bring up their children in a Christian manner, priests and the whole community must manifest an attentive solicitude, so that they do not consider themselves separated from the Church, in whose life they can and must participate as baptized persons:
They should be encouraged to listen to the Word of God, to attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, to persevere in prayer, to contribute to works of charity and to community efforts for justice, to bring up their children in the Christian faith, to cultivate the spirit and practice of penance and thus implore, day by day, God’s grace. "
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
Why don’t you let him speak for himself if he wishes to Catharina?
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
Have you ever been involved in an annulment, Catharina? If you had, I think you might better understand that the process is convoluted, inefficient and not always conducive to discovering the truth to the validity of a marriage. It is a failure of the Church that this process has not been homogenized and improved upon, a failure that daily affects the lives of many Catholics who are trying to do the right thing and be obedient to the Church. This process should reflect the seriousness and sanctity of Christian marriage, and yet often, it does not, leaving people bewildered, frustrated and confused.
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catharina
Guest
What - you think I have him bound and gagged in my closet?
He’s not on-line. When he comes on-line maybe he will speak for himself.
Meanwhile you made a very general and very ugly accusation to one and all -
YOU SAID:
“I just didn’t appreciate the implication that I was in any way CLOSE to blaspheming the Holy Spirit by asserting that a tribunal might make a poor decision regarding the validity of a marriage.”
The post seemed to be addressed to david - but it was not referring to david.
I pointed our that it seemed no one has accused you by implication (or otherwise)
in the way you claimed. You mentioned PJM. I read what he wrote and responded.
Actually, I’m allowed to do that!
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catharina
Guest
Repeating:
People who leave the Church do so for any reason or for no reason at all.
It seems that some Catholics do not grasp the simple fact that we are called to
live a sacrificial life and that can unfold for people in any variety of ways. To blame
the Church is to undervalue the grace of God that is with us to endure suffering.
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
Oh Catharina…you really are a piece of work. You really do have it all figured out don’t you?
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
I never implied that I was referring to david in my post. And of COURSE you are allowed to write and post what you wish. Just don’t be surprised if nobody really cares to read or ponder what you have to say when you inject yourself into a conversation that doesn’t involve you.
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catharina
Guest
Heavens NO!
I don’t have you figured out.
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catharina
Guest
Ahhhh - now I have you figured out a bit.
You imagine that you speak for a group of people.
In fact you, like I, speak only for yourself.
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joanofarc2008
Guest
I can speak personally to my own situation and the situations of friends of mine that have been involved in the decree of nullity process. Any faithful person I know that has been involved in this process has seemed to come out with a renewed sense of healing. The only people I do know that have not were people that went in with expectations of a certain decision rather than putting their trust in God or were already dating even though they knew (not speaking of those that were ignorant to the law) this to be against Christ’s teaching. I can only speak for the people I have known personally. I hope this helps.
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catharina
Guest
Amen. Thank you, Joan.
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
I wonder if any couples actually get back together after a failed annulment because they figure, “Hey, it’s you or nobody!”
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EvelynEVF
Guest
I think Joan nails it. That’s very much my experience, too. The annulment process just intensifies what’s already there.
I don’t know of anyone who has found it a motivation for getting back together, because all the faithful Catholics I can think of, divorced for serious reasons and would rather be alone for life than remarry the former spouse. And that includes me!
I don’t know of anyone who has found it a motivation for getting back together, because all the faithful Catholics I can think of, divorced for serious reasons and would rather be alone for life than remarry the former spouse. And that includes me!
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BrushedByAngels
Guest
My ex-husband , well he is still my husband in regards to the church… is one of my good friends and we get along great. I know I would consider it, but I am not open to the idea of having any more children so I would remain celibate and I know that would not go over to well with him.
So with this being said, I feel I’ve been called to be single and celibate. I am at peace with it and I don’t care to date anyway.
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davidv
Guest
This seems to be a figment of your imagination. I know one who presented their case before the tribunal, and they would not call it rigid, nor impersonal.
You keep making the claim that the tribunal’s process is flawed. I have not seen you present any factual evidence that it is. Is it just your wishful thinking?
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EvelynEVF
Guest
We can’t speak as if one tribunal represents all tribunals! I have met plenty of people who thought they were treated rudely or given the runaround, or who knows what else based on a single encounter that soured the whole thing for them. And people believe the lies about how some annulments cost $25k (got that from a personal friend).
I feel really blessed to know that I have a great judge and a great advocate, and darling people who will drive me to the chancery when it’s time to read everything and I know I would be too much of an exhausted basket case to drive myself home. But a lot of people out there don’t have any personal connections at all and it all feels like it’s happening far away and they are just a number. There is a huge opportunity for pastoral care there, and i hope the Church will step in.
I feel really blessed to know that I have a great judge and a great advocate, and darling people who will drive me to the chancery when it’s time to read everything and I know I would be too much of an exhausted basket case to drive myself home. But a lot of people out there don’t have any personal connections at all and it all feels like it’s happening far away and they are just a number. There is a huge opportunity for pastoral care there, and i hope the Church will step in.
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Gertabelle
Guest
You seem to believe that God can only speak to us through the happy-happy-joy-joy experiences of life – if every door opens at just the right time, and I get exactly what I want, then it must be God’s will.
But if anybody dares to get in my way and tell me I can’t have what I want, when I want it, then how dare anybody suggest that God could work through that situation to reveal His will to me?
God can work through corrupt systems and corrupt officials and money and power and sociopaths (and poopy diapers, and broken cars, and terrible accidents) – you keep arguing that if the system is flawed or corrupt, then we should be free to do whatever we like, and completely ignore (if necessary to get what we want) the rules and decisions of the Church founded and sustained by Christ Himself. Seriously?
I’d like to say I just don’t understand that kind of ego… but having spent 14 years worshipping my own brilliance away from the “flawed, corrupt, woman-hating” Catholic Church, I can say I know all too well the mindset that leads one to advocate doing whatever feels right – and justifying disobedience to God (by disobedience to His Church) by throwing around words like corrupt and flawed.
To be clear, I am in fact asserting that when Our Lord said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15), He was giving us a path for life. Specifically, we show our love for Him by obedience to His Church – especially regarding the sacramental life – and we show lack of love for Him when we choose what we think is “only fair” over the decrees of His Church.
If doors close in my face for the things I want in life (like marriage) then yes, I do believe that this is God showing me His will for this time in my life. Why is that so hard for you to accept? – That God could actually (gasp) work through the ordinary, mundane, sometimes unfair (especially when I don’t get my own way), difficult realities of life.
This life will be screwed up at times, maybe even most of the time. Heaven will be perfect. And I know of no other way to get there than through obedience
Gert (the grumpy graduate student and exhausted school teacher)
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
Why would I WANT the annulment process to be flawed? I have never had one or attempted one, nor do I want one. But I HAVE been a witness in one, and never once was I asked to speak to a single person face-to-face or even over the phone, nor was anyone else involved.
The marriage was declared invalid, thank God, but the process was certainly flawed. Fill out a questionnaire and hope it goes your way.
Why is this so hard for you to accept?
Do YOU have any personal experience with annulments that give your argument to the contrary any weight whatsoever?
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
I’m only going to respond briefly to this because I think this post was very rude. NEVER did I say or indicate that God cannot communicate to us only through “happy happy joy joy” moments, or that He cannot work through corrupt officials and systems, etc.You seem to believe that God can only speak to us through the happy-happy-joy-joy experiences of life – if every door opens at just the right time, and I get exactly what I want, then it must be God’s will.
But if anybody dares to get in my way and tell me I can’t have what I want, when I want it, then how dare anybody suggest that God could work through that situation to reveal His will to me?
God can work through corrupt systems and corrupt officials and money and power and sociopaths (and poopy diapers, and broken cars, and terrible accidents) – you keep arguing that if the system is flawed or corrupt, then we should be free to do whatever we like, and completely ignore (if necessary to get what we want) the rules and decisions of the Church founded and sustained by Christ Himself. Seriously?
I’d like to say I just don’t understand that kind of ego… but having spent 14 years worshipping my own brilliance away from the “flawed, corrupt, woman-hating” Catholic Church, I can say I know all too well the mindset that leads one to advocate doing whatever feels right – and justifying disobedience to God (by disobedience to His Church) by throwing around words like corrupt and flawed.
To be clear, I am in fact asserting that when Our Lord said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15), He was giving us a path for life. Specifically, we show our love for Him by obedience to His Church – especially regarding the sacramental life – and we show lack of love for Him when we choose what we think is “only fair” over the decrees of His Church.
If doors close in my face for the things I want in life (like marriage) then yes, I do believe that this is God showing me His will for this time in my life. Why is that so hard for you to accept? – That God could actually (gasp) work through the ordinary, mundane, sometimes unfair (especially when I don’t get my own way), difficult realities of life.
This life will be screwed up at times, maybe even most of the time. Heaven will be perfect. And I know of no other way to get there than through obedience
Gert (the grumpy graduate student and exhausted school teacher)
But I’m also not one of those people who sees the Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich and assigns it some deep spiritual meaning. Everything is not a sign or a directive from God.
“The Church” is not a marriage tribunal. Jesus is not a marriage tribunal. Tribunals have been unjust, corrupt and wrong. We are not required to throw up our hands and quit every time we are denied justice or each time a door slams in our faces because it must be a “sign from God”. The right thing to do is to fight for justice, to change flawed systems, and to demand better when we deserve it.
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