Remarriage to the same person

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OldeThom

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Greetings!

Well, for those who know me here in these forums, I am back with great news: my wife and I are talking about getting back together! We are taking things slowly and there are the feelings and hurts of our children to consider as well.

It has been over two years since we separated and divorced. My wife initiated the divorce because I was being a giant butthead (see previous posts for details). She never stopped loving me nor I, her. As many of you know I am a candidate, currently in RCIA at St Mary in Eugene OR. It has been a long, difficult road, but extremely rewarding and fulfilling.

I have some questions and concerns, but first some background:

My wife and I were both married previously. She to a non-Christian, divorced him due to abuse, drug addiction, unfaithfulness and finally because his unwillingness to come to Christ. Her first marriage took place in a Baptist church. They had two children together. I was previously married, to a baptised, non-practicing Catholic, though I did not know that at the time. She did not want children and wrote that into our marriage agreement (but I adopted her son). Under similar circumstance as my wife’s, I divorced her, although in this case because she ran off with another man. We were married by a JP.

My wife and I were married by a Methodist minister on the beach in Carmel CA, not in a church. We have two daughters together,
My wife was Baptised Roman Catholic and received her first confirmation and Eucharist in the Church but shortly thereafter her parents divorced (her mother was Methodist and was at odds with her father, over the differences of faith and other issues).
I was raised Baptist, Baptised and Confirmed into the church but my parents also divorced shortly thereafter.
Being confused Christians, my wife and I we were re-baptised in a Bible church in 1993 and reconfirmed our faith. In my case my childhood church baptismal records were lost and I honestly could not remember the event … In my wife’s case, it was unnecessary.

In discussions with the Deacon of my church, my wife’s and my first marriages were not recognised as valid, and living in sin, but ours most likely is valid, though not officially confirmed. And the Church does not recognise our divorce in the first place. I did not want to seek annulment nor was is it justified.

We want to be “re-married” (if that is even the right term) in the Church (l.e., blessed by a Priest), but how should we proceed? If our marriage is indeed valid and divorce outside the Church is not recognised, and you can only marry once, what do we have to do? Such a mess we have created. I know there are sins to be confessed before we do anything and I need to join the Church first as well.

I hope that all makes sense. Feel free to ask for clarification. Any help and direction would be greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,
Thom
 
Go together with your wife to your perspective parish to register and make an appointment to speak with one of the parish priests. Explain your situation to him and proceed from there. You can also make confessions at that time.

Depending on specific circumstances regarding both your and your wife’s previous marriages, they may or may not be recognized by the Church and may or may not need annulments.

In the event that the circumstances surrounding you and your wife’s marriage together are valid in the eyes of the Church, as your deacon has told you, and your divorce of course being un-recognized, you may simply need a convalidation ceremony to officiate the Church’s “blessing” of your marriage.

God bless! 🙂
 
My husband and I were re-married in the Church. We too divorced, under different circumstances (and neither had been married to anyone else before). We were also married by a JP the first time. We did not have to have an annulment. It varies by case, so you will have to check with your priest (who will check with the bishop or tribunal office if there is any question).
One thing that helped us immensely was going to Retrouvaille before we re-married. It taught us how to communicate with each other so we would avoid the same problems we had the first time. I highly recommend it. www.retrouvaille.org Good luck and God bless!
 
I will point out that Marriage Encounter and Engaged Encounter are also worth the time, and provide communication tools in a religious retreat setting as well.

Retrovaille has an excellent reputation; I’ve not been through it, but locally it’s billed for couples with mariages in distress. The OP’s description sounds like the poster child from the presented descriptions.
 
Sorry for the delay in my response. Thank you all for the kind responses. I looked at the Retrovaille site and info, I do not think that is what we are looking for at this point, though I can see where it’s goal in a marriage in crisis can be quite beneficial. In our case, it is very hard to contain the explosion after the bomb has already gone off.

It has been brought to my attention that my marriage with my current wife may not be valid in the first place because she was baptised Catholic (though non-practicing) and we were not married in the Church by a priest. I have been told you have to have special dispensation to marry outside the Church as a Catholic. I have not been able to meet with my deacon or priest on this, tomorrow perhaps. What exactly is the policy of the Church on a Catholic marrying a non-Catholic Christian?

Respectfully,
Thom
 
OldeThom said:
Sorry for the delay in my response. Thank you all for the kind responses. I looked at the Retrovaille site and info, I do not think that is what we are looking for at this point, though I can see where it’s goal in a marriage in crisis can be quite beneficial. In our case, it is very hard to contain the explosion after the bomb has already gone off.

It has been brought to my attention that my marriage with my current wife may not be valid in the first place because she was baptised Catholic (though non-practicing) and we were not married in the Church by a priest. I have been told you have to have special dispensation to marry outside the Church as a Catholic. I have not been able to meet with my deacon or priest on this, tomorrow perhaps. What exactly is the policy of the Church on a Catholic marrying a non-Catholic Christian?

Respectfully,
Thom
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It requires a dispensation from the bishop to be valid.
Likewise, getting married outside a catholic parish by a catholic minister requires a dispensation to be valid.
 
OK, with a little more research I think I found my answer on the USCCB site.

Looks like my wife needed to get from her bishop a “permission to enter into a mixed marriage” as well as permission to be married physically outside the Church. I am sure she did not know this as she had been attending a non-denominational Bible church for years prior to our marriage. It was comforting to read we did satisfy the 4 primary requirements:


  1. *] The spouses are free to marry;
    *] They freely exchange their consent;
    *] In consenting to marry, they have the intention to marry for life, to be faithful to one another and be open to children;
    *] Their consent is given in the presence of two witnesses and before a properly authorized Church minister

    I will get with my pastor and go over this with him.

    Respectfully,
    Thom
 
Aramis said:
It requires a dispensation from the bishop to be valid.
Likewise, getting married outside a catholic parish by a catholic minister requires a dispensation to be valid.
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Oops, thanks Aramis for the response, looks like we were posting simultaneously.

Thom
 
Since you’re divorced from your wife, IOW, no longer legally married to her, a convalidation is not what you are looking for since that is for people who are already in a legal marriage.

You would simply have to ‘remarry’. Depending on where you live, your ex would need to get permission to enter a mixed-marriage (in some dioceses, ours is one, the priest can grant that permission; in others that must go to the bishop) and you would simply ‘get married’. It would be your second ‘legal’ marriage to your wife but your first ‘valid’ marriage in the Catholic church.

Of course that can only happen if the other ‘marriages’ are looked at and declared null.
 
The others have given you very good advice, and you seem to be finding answer on your own also. Since I really don’t know much about this area, I can’t really help much.

But I did want to send my “Best Wishes” to you and your soon to be Wife. (Yes, I know she’s your x-wife.) I’ll pray that our Heavenly Father help things go smoothly for you on getting re-married to each other again.

May you both remember always to keep God as the head of your household, may you always pray together, (yes and apart too) read the Scriptures daily and never go to bed angry.
 
First, I want to thank those who have responded, this is a difficult thing to discuss in a forum format. Special thanks to adelore for your encouragement and wisdom.

I seem to be caught in a loop here. My pastor said the Church did not recognise my secular divorce. So it was odd to read that the Church does recognise secular divorce (at least in a legal sense) at some level. Frankly all this legalism is quite frustrating. I truly understand the importance of the Sacrament of Marriage, from the relationship to the Persons within the Holy Trinity to the Sacraments to the Church itself and to our relationships here on earth. That is why I am seeking clarification because I want to do what is right in God’s eyes. Oh the tangled webs we weave, When first we practice to deceive. I created this problem, it is humbling to see the errors and sins I committed - to realise what a fool I had been. I get the sense that we spend so much time and energy on divorce and annulment that we lose sight of the inverse, i.e., it was so “easy” to get a divorce, it is so difficult to get back together. This seems out of balance. I keep hoping to find some sort of rite within the Church that will “annul” our divorce, in a legal sense (on paper if you will), and at the same time bless us as a married couple in God’s eyes. Were we actually even married (in a valid marriage) in the first place? It would be so easy to say, “Oh you were never married in the first place. So it is easy, just get married in the Church.” Easy way out, right? Our hearts tell us otherwise and Scripture and the Church clearly says one marriage, one wife. We are staying separated because of this confusion, and because we want our marriage to be valid. Admittedly, there are other reasons as well, but they are quickly vanishing. We understand the need for patience and waiting on the Lord, but it is hard nonetheless. My wife is quite frustrated, as am I. We are praying and hoping our meeting with our pastor later this month will clarify things for us and give us a clear road map of how we should proceed.

Respectfully,
Thom
 
Phemie said:
Since you’re divorced from your wife, IOW, no longer legally married to her, a convalidation is not what you are looking for since that is for people who are already in a legal marriage.

You would simply have to ‘remarry’. Depending on where you live, your ex would need to get permission to enter a mixed-marriage (in some dioceses, ours is one, the priest can grant that permission; in others that must go to the bishop) and you would simply ‘get married’. It would be your second ‘legal’ marriage to your wife but your first ‘valid’ marriage in the Catholic church.

Of course that can only happen if the other ‘marriages’ are looked at and declared null.
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Oh I forgot to say, after April 11th (Easter Vigil) I will be part of the Catholic Church … finally crossing the Tiber. So there will not be a “mixed-marriage” because we do not intend on any “marriage” or whatever, until after then.

Respectfully,
Thom
 
OldeThom said:
I seem to be caught in a loop here. My pastor said the Church did not recognise my secular divorce. So it was odd to read that the Church does recognise secular divorce (at least in a legal sense) at some level.
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First let me say that I’m not a canon lawyer, a member of the Marriage Tribunal, nor do I play either role on TV.

I’m just very confused by what your pastor said to you and the story you tell.

It’s true that a marriage that is valid in the eyes of God is not ended by a legal divorce. Even if the legal marriage ends, the spiritual marriage endures until the death of one of the spouses.

That said, even ignoring both your and your wife’s previous marriages, why would your marriage to each other be valid when your wife was Catholic and married you outside the Church?

If your marriage IS indeed valid in the eyes of the Church (and reading over your story again I can only assume that that would be because your wife had officially defected from the Catholic Church and so wasn’t bound by its laws) then you need do nothing more as far as the Church is concerned. Valid is valid and nothing more is required.

OTOH the State will require you to marry again unless you want to be considered to be in a common-law relationship.

If in fact it turns out that your marriage to each other WAS NOT VALID in the eyes of God this would require a straightforward marriage in the Church, including license, preparation, etc. This would satisfy both the Church and the State.

If your marriage is valid, the easiest thing to do would be to have a civil marriage and then ask the priest to allow you to renew your vows. That would take care of the legality and a ‘renewal’ would not imply that the marriage wasn’t already valid.

The difference between a convalidation and a renewal of vows is this:

A convalidation is a marriage before God.

In a renewal of vows there is a recognition that you are already married in the eyes of God. Although the vows are the same, the words leading up to them are not:

My dear friends (N. & N.), you have come here with your family and friends to celebrate your faithfulness to each other and to thank God for the years he has given you to live in mutual love.
Through the joys and sorrows, the triumphs and trials of life, God has been with you.

The Church shares your joy today and is thankful to you for being such a powerful sign of God’s loyal and faithful love for the world.

"God has enriched and strengthened you over the years by the sacrament of marriage. In renewing your vows today, you give witness once again to God’s love.

You have proven your devotion to each other by your life together. Now join your right hands and renew your consent before God and his Church." (In a convalidation or an ordinary wedding the words would be 'join your right hands and declare your consent before God and his Church).

The part in blue would be omitted where the couple is not in a sacramental marriage.
 
Phemie, thank you for your clear and direct response.

I think the issue lies here with my wife. OK, so the issue at heart may be. did she “defect” from the Church and therefore not bound by it’s laws? I can not answer that for her. However, given she was forced to abandon the Church because of her parents divorce, her mother being Methodist and remarried to Methodist, going to a Methodist church for the rest of her teen years until she herself married her first husband and did not attend any church during that marriage, I’d say the break or defection was fairly obvious. If not then, then certainly after her first marriage dissolved, attending a non-denominational Bible church, where we met, indirectly. After we married, she and I were re-baptised in that church and signed the church’s Confession of Faith and Baptism, then we were admitted into that church as members.

The deacon and pastor of my church knows much of this, so perhaps their comments about our marriage were along the lines of reasoning of which you stated. That, however, was some time ago, much has changed since then and we have alot more information, That is why I will be meeting with him again to clarify. I was hoping for an all-in-one process, but maybe that does not exist. As you stated, to satisfy the civil legal record, we will most likely need to obtain a secular marriage certificate, then have our vows renewed in the Church. Makes sense.

Respectfully,
Thom
 
from OldeThom
It has been over two years since we separated and divorced. My wife initiated the divorce because I was being a giant butthead (see previous posts for details). She never stopped loving me nor I, her. As many of you know I am a candidate, currently in RCIA at St Mary in Eugene OR. It has been a long, difficult road, but extremely rewarding and fulfilling.
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Welcome home Thom!
My wife and I were both married previously. She to a non-Christian, divorced him due to abuse, drug addiction, unfaithfulness and finally because his unwillingness to come to Christ. Her first marriage took place in a Baptist church. They had two children together…
My wife was Baptised Roman Catholic
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Your wife was still married to this first man, in the eyes of the Church, when the two of you married – thus she has never validly been married to you. However, what applies in her case is what is commonly (but not “correctly”) called “the easy annulment.” She married outside the Church without permission. She doesn’t need to worry at all about proving spousal abuse, etc. She needs to submit a petition for Nullity of Marriage Due to Defect of Form.
I was previously married, to a baptised, non-practicing Catholic, though I did not know that at the time. She did not want children and wrote that into our marriage agreement (but I adopted her son). Under similar circumstance as my wife’s, I divorced her, although in this case because she ran off with another man. We were married by a JP.
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You also are still considered married to your first wife, but because, as a Catholic, she did not obtain permission to marry outside the Church, you also need only to submit a petition for Nullity of Marriage Due to Defect of Form. If you and she had been married in the Church, then you’d now need to provide some evidence as to her intentsions re: children, etc. Your nullity petition would be about consent rather than defect of form – but it isn’t.
We have two daughters together
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May their parents be models of faith for them. 🙂
If your son is still a minor, the Church is supposed to assure that you’re fulfilling your obligation as his father before you marry someone else.

I
was raised Baptist, Baptised and Confirmed into the church but my parents also divorced shortly thereafter.
Being confused Christians, my wife and I we were re-baptised in a Bible church in 1993 and reconfirmed our faith. In my case my childhood church baptismal records were lost and I honestly could not remember the event … In my wife’s case, it was unnecessary.
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You can ask your pastor for an affidavit form you can fill out re: your Baptism, or he may want to administer a “conditional Baptism” – he won’t be “re-baptizing” you.
In discussions with the Deacon of my church, my wife’s and my first marriages were not recognised as valid, and living in sin, but ours most likely is valid, though not officially confirmed.
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Your deacon isn’t accurate – only the diocesan Marriage Tribunal can proclaim that a marriage is valid or invalid. He’s jumping the gun. You and your second wife need to get those petitions in.

When the petitions for nullity for defect of form are granted, both of your first marriages would be considered not to have existed in the eyes of the Church. Your wife’s and your marriage would be viewed by the Church as secularly lawful – but not valid, since your wife, a Catholic, did not obtain permission from the Church to marry outside the Church. You two would then prepare to have your marriage convalidated. There’s still some messiness to be resolved, however – I don’t know if you need to be legally married outside the Church, first, to satisfy the government, or if the convalidation would satisfy the government – you need to discuss this part with your pastor.

You and your wife may not have sexual relationships until your marriage is convalidated by the Church.
I know there are sins to be confessed before we do anything and I need to join the Church first as well.
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God is so merciful. 🙂
 
Thom,
Here’s the long and the short of it.

Both of you will need to petition for declarations of nullity for your first marriages to your first spouses (unless one of those spouses has since died).

As for your first marriage to each other, in the eyes of the state you were legally divorced, so you will have to be married again (unless there’s some state law allowing otherwise, but as far as I know this isn’t likely).

After you get those anullments (assuming they are granted and without restrictions), then you can proceed to marry each other. You will get a marriage license from the state and the priest will act as the officiant (both in the eyes of the state and the Church). This will be a marriage, not a convalidation; because the Church only “convalidates” a marriage if it’s valid under the law, and since you are legally divorced, there is no legal marriage to be con-validated.

It might even be the case that you need to petition for a decree of nullity for your marriage to your now-x-wife before marrying her–again because that marriage is now “ended” in legal terms it cannot be convalidated.

I’m sure your pastor will work with you on this, and I’m likewise sure that this will have to be examined carefully by the diocese office of matrimonial concerns.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that you are trying to make things right. The paperwork won’t be easy, but in the end, a valid sacramental marriage will be worth all the effort.
 
I will bring these comments to my parish pastor - I am numb from them. This entire process is presenting a problem for my wife (2nd that is) who is reluctant to come back to the Church. She is asking for her records from her childhood church, but this is far as she is willing to go. It seems she is quite content with her beliefs and church she now attends. She has many issues with the Catholic Church, just as I did, but from a different perspective.

My journey, started over two years ago now, to come to know the truth, know what I know: know what I believe and believe what I know. God has taken me to many places and people on this journey. I have unlearned many things, relearned others and acquired new teachings and understanding. Having the prospect of rejoining my wife was something I did not expect but always hoped for. I love her dearly. Now, on the verge of becoming a Catholic myself, I thought with all this talk about getting back together again I could be a positive influence on her and help her come back to the Church once we reestablished our marriage. Our marriage was always suspect and now it seems, from what I am now reading, we weren’t even married. That is very disconcerting. The point here is not to make it easy, I know this, but to make it right. I am not sure if this is helping. Much prayer is needed and all of this is beyond my ability and capacity to understand. I have many things to consider and many hours of prayer to come, over this.

Respectfully,
Thom
 
You mentioned all the legalism in the Church and only wanting to do what He wants you to do. He wants your obedience to His Will, which sometimes seems messy since human beings mess things up so, but once it is straightened out it will be very straightforward. Just don’t worry, follow what the Church (via her Magisterium) teaches and take it to your priest or tribunal (priests are often so overworked these days).

Welcome Home to you and your wife/fiancee!
 
brigid12 said:
You mentioned all the legalism in the Church and only wanting to do what He wants you to do. He wants your obedience to His Will, which sometimes seems messy since human beings mess things up so, but once it is straightened out it will be very straightforward. Just don’t worry, follow what the Church (via her Magisterium) teaches and take it to your priest or tribunal (priests are often so overworked these days).

Welcome Home to you and your wife/fiancee!
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I have read and received some horror stories that are most disturbing about this process. Yes, it does get messy when fallen man tries to intervene in God’s Will. I’m not “home” yet.

Respectfully,
Thom
 
Just a follow-up after meeting with my local parish pastor, Fr Mark.

Basically, both of our previous marriages are “Lack of Form” cases, our own marriage falls under the same category (plus according to the Church, my wife never had the right to remarry, so invalid to start with). Since we are not seeking termination (and the Church does not recognise civil divorce anyway) and are seeking to re-marry at some date in the future, with me wanting it to be blessed within the Church, my pastor feels the Convalidation ceremony would be more appropriate after we have obtained the proper civil marriage license. He will continue to look into this.

I asked if we were committing a mortal sin, to which he asked (and he explained) if we knew it was a “grave matter” our being married. No, the Catholic Church and it’s doctrine was not known to us and we were following the precepts of our own church which allowed for divorce in certain situations, whose categories our previous marriages fell within. My paster said then, no, we did not commit a mortal sin. However, with regards to the present and the future, knowing what I know now and after joining the Church come Easter, that is a different matter …

My wife’s situation, since she is the Catholic, is pretty straight forward, she has all her information and has a reasonable ex. My situation, since I am not the Catholic, my ex is, then it gets complicated. Tracking her down will be the least of my worries, I think. My pastor said to document everything and anything along the way, which I have already started. I will do my best, but this is truly in the hands of God. If it is meant to be, then so shall it be.

It disturbs me to know I have not said any of this to my wife. I realise the timing isn’t right, but it still disturbs me. In a recent email from her, discussing my oldest daughters lack of forgiveness and hatred of me, amplifies my concern - she wrote,
She trusts what she sees more than what she hears. That is why she has a difficult time with religion. She said it gives her post traumatic stress when she goes to church and sees people praying. And that reminds her of what you said and what you did and how it didn’t match.
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My wife has the same issues with me, to some extent, but we are working through those, but her issues go back to her childhood with her own father (a vocal Catholic, but non-practicing in just about every sense.)

My wife and I have many things to accomplish before any re-marriage can take place, but first I must move closer to my wife and daughters. We both have some messy extended family matters to deal with. We also need some solid family counseling, much spiritual guidance and copious amounts of prayer. It still grieves me to realise I caused all of this.

I became very discouraged and downhearted over the last month. I even contemplated leaving my journey to the Church, but that was the enemy speaking not me or God. I don’t recommend anyone reading Canon Law unless you intend on being a JCD! I have a tenancy to be swallowed-up by the context of my research - if you have not noticed. My apologies to all for my negativity and pessimism.

With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible … and God will do what He wishes to do. - (Matt 19:26; Ps 135:6) In this context, it is no accident that the 19th chapter of Matthew’s gospel begins with a discourse on the subject of marriage. I know the Lord is good and His mercy is forever. Amen.

Respectfully,
Thom
 
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