"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Ex 20:8).

[MarysRoses]

The Catholic Church has always taught the need to keep the 10 Commandments, as do most if not all Protestant Churches. I don’t know of any denomination which claims we are free to break the 10 Commandments.

The Apostle John spoke clearly when he said:
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. " 1 John 2:4

This is really bait and switch. You refer to the 10 commandments of the OT, then use a verse clearly referring to Jesus’s commandments… Yet Jesus said his commandments are to love God and love others as our self. It is an INTERPRETATION that this new covenant includes the OT commandments, exactly as presented in the OT.

To hold this view, one must keep ALL of the commandments, all 600 plus of them, not just ten. There is no scholarly support for dividing up the Old Covenant into “ceremonial” and “eternal” laws. Adventists abstain from unclean meat, yet they will mix meat (clean) and dairy products in a dish without hesitation. A clear violation of the commandment not to mix meat and dairy in a dish. They wear clothing of mixed fibers. Another violation, and the list goes on and on… If you break any part of the law, you have broken it all. Sabbath keeping will not make up for that.

Adventists and Catholics both believe that the Ten Commandments are valid and binding. But there are differences in the details, which is why people are continually talking past each other on this topic.

We cannot claim to know God and break His commandments.

Adventists agree that God’s eternal law is a law of Love. Something that existed before Adam and Eve were created, and will always continue. This law is woven directly into his creation… it is an expression of who God is. Societies instinctively know that some laws and rules are good and build up society, and some actions are things that tear apart families and society. Societies that allow murder, adultery, and stealing don’t last. People who live in them have shorter, unhappy lives. Adventists equate this eternal law with the 10 commandments. Catholics believe that the 10 commandments are a reflection of this deeper, eternal law, not a transcription of the law itself.

Again, Catholics believe that the ten commandments are binding… as an expression of this natural moral law. God’s law of love. An interesting contrast to me, is that Adventists believe the 10 commandments as written, word for word, in Exodus 20
are this eternal law. In Ellen White’s vision of the commandments with the Sabbath highlighted, in all of the art, sabbath school materials, posters, paintings, etc etc I saw when I was Adventist, its always Exodus 20. This presents the 10 commandments as a concrete document, unchanging.

This difference has huge consequences:

Adventists believe that the sabbath commandment, as given in the 20th chapter of Exodus… is exactly the same as is inscribed on the tablets held in the ark of the covenant. Their prophetess, Ellen G. White, had a vision, that these tablets were now in heaven, and she said she saw a halo of light highlighting this sabbath commandment. She said that this commandment would be a test for believers, whether they truly follow God and are loyal to Him, or have been deceived by man, with an emphasis on sabbath being “given at creation” (her view… and Adventist teaching, the bible actually does not record it being kept by man until the time of Moses) and that the only proper day to “keep” it was the seventh day of the week… our Saturday.

Catholics believe that Exodus 20 is an expression of God’s eternal law…the natural, moral law, just as Deuteronomy 5 is an expression of God’s eternal law. Both passages list the 10 commandments. Both are essentially the same. But… they are not identical. The sabbath commandment has a different rationale in the two different chapters, both of which are accounts of the giving of the 10 commandments:

From Exodus 20:

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

From Deuteronomy 5:

12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

This difference presents no problem to Catholics… as we believe both passages, and both listings, are expressions of God’s law… not exact transcripts. Catholics believe the Ten Commandments are binding as moral law, not because we believe we are under the same covenant as Israel. Catholics believe Christians are under the New Covenant, and are not bound by the shadows contained in the old covenant.

(Cont. next post…)

 

[MarysRoses]

Adventists have to consider the following… in deuteronomy the reason for the sabbath being given to the Hebrews was this:

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Probably the first thing about my above statement that will jump out to an Adventist and prompt a quick response… “given to the Hebrews”. They would be quick to insist the sabbath was given at creation and was not just for Israel.

But look at the introduction to this chapter, Deuteronomy 5:1-3 :
1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

The Bible, specifically says this covenant was NOT WITH OUR FATHERS… This same chapter goes on to list the same essential commandments as Exodus 4… in fact this is another account of the same event, the covenant with Israel.

Yes… it is fair to say the sabbath is a memorial of creation. This reasoning is in Exodus 20. But it is also a fact that the sabbath is a memorial of Israel’s deliverance from bondage in Egypt, as recorded in Deuteronomy 5.

It is also an uncomfortable fact (for Adventists) that Deuteronomy affirms that this covenant was made with the Hebrews… at horeb, and explicitly says it was not made with their fathers.

I have not seen any credible biblical argument that the Ten Commandments, as recorded in Exodus 20, are an exact transcript of God’s eternal law. The fact that there are two versions of them in the bible, with different details but the same essentials shows that they are expressions of the same, deeper reality… not a word for word contract.

That said… what about the sabbath? Catholics accept the Ten Commandments are moral law. What is moral about the sabbath? What is shadow? What passed away withe the Old Covenant… what is binding under the new Law of Love that the NT says is written on the tables of our heart?

What is moral about the sabbath, and what is shadow?

Adventists teach that during the end times, the sabbath will become a matter of salvation. (some teach that it already is, but I’m trying to be charitable). Adventists cannot agree on exactly “how” to keep the sabbath. Some go out to eat, some won’t. Some warm food up… some don’t. Some will cook simple foods, some will only re heat. Some will go to the grocery store for necessities, some won’t.
All they can agree on is that whatever you do to keep “sabbath” holy, is that mostly, it involves going to church and even more importantly, that it has to happen on Saturday. Sunday will not do. To keep Sunday is to disobey God. “knowingly” keeping Sunday instead of Saturday if you have been given the “light” on the sabbath, will cost you your salvation.

When it comes to the Sabbath, there are various views:
Catholic: the church changed the Sabbath to Sunday
Presbyterian: Jesus and the Apostles changed the Sabbath to Sunday
Lutheran and others: The Sabbath was abolished at the cross
SDA and others: The Sabbath was not abolished or transferred

Clearly these views are not compatible with each other, if the Sabbath was abolished it cannot also be transferred to another day.

First, the Catholic Church does NOT claim that Sunday is the biblical Sabbath transferred to another day. This is a straw man argument.

Adventists love to trot out statements that the Church “changed” the sabbath to Sunday. You can find them. They summarize the externals (The day of the week has changed) without delving into the deeper meanings and history. Adventists take these simple explanations, which were not meant to be in depth theological statements, and twist them to their own meanings.

In common English usage, ‘sabbath’ means any day of rest and worship. This is frequently and correctly used in the English language to designate the Sunday rest day as well as the Saturday Sabbath. The Church, did indeed change the day of worship. Christians no longer rest and worship on Saturday, they rest and worship on Sunday. So the Church did indeed “change” the sabbath… as the English word is commonly understood meaning a day of rest. If you look for specific clarification about the status of the biblical sabbath in regards to Sunday, the Church is very clear. Saturday is the biblical sabbath. Sunday is not the sabbath on another day… it is a day distinct from the Jewish sabbath. These documents and explanations are widely available. For Adventists to use these statements to bolster their own assertions without taking into account context and language… is in fact academic dishonesty.

A Catholic understands “Church” to mean the one Church, which has existed from the day of Pentecost. The authority which is referred to in the statements… is the authority Jesus gave his Apostles to teach and establish His Church. Not something that came along long after the apostles. This is indeed “the Church” and the Church did change the day of assembly. These statements were not made with an idea in mind that the “church” came about hundreds of years after Jesus. They are not statements verifying that the day of worship was changed hundreds of years after Jesus. Yet adventists will tack them on after asserting that Sunday became the day of worship under Constantine in the fourth century… as if they confirm their statements. This is another form of academic dishonesty. Catholic statements have to be understood with Catholic definitions of the terms… not Adventist definitions. This is simple fairness.

.

(Continued next post)

 

[MarysRoses]

(cont from previous post)

This applies to the “Converts Catechism” you quoted from. Did you check the copyright date on that? 1880 or thereabouts? A few things you should know, that is not an official catechism, its an informal short summary. That statement, as I explained above summarizes the contemporary (19th century) practice of the Church, not the history and theology of Sunday as the weekly feast of the Church. Published in the 19th century, it reflects 19th century popular culture of calling Sunday Sabbath

From our official Catechism, not some simplified pamphlet or article…

---

I. THE SABBATH DAY

2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."92

2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."93

2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord’s day a memorial of Israel’s liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."94

2171 God entrusted the sabbath to Israel to keep as a sign of the irrevocable covenant.95 The sabbath is for the Lord, holy and set apart for the praise of God, his work of creation, and his saving actions on behalf of Israel.

2172 God’s action is the model for human action. If God “rested and was refreshed” on the seventh day, man too ought to “rest” and should let others, especially the poor, "be refreshed."96 The sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is a day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.97

2173 The Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of this day.98 He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."99 With compassion, Christ declares the sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing.100 The sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God.101 "The Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath."102

II. THE LORD’S DAY

This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.103
The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the “first day,” the day of Christ’s Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the “eighth day” following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ’s Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord’s Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106
Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord’s Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

---

It might help to understand a bit more before making accusations of “changing God’s law” .

The letter of the law brings only death…

The spirit gives life.

How do you enter into the divine rest? Under the old covenant… God gave them a finite day to enter into this divine reality. Under the new… We have God Himself in the person of His divine Son, Jesus.
The Jews failed to enter into this divine, HOLY beyond human conception, rest that was hidden in the shadow of a day…
Christians have Jesus, who is all Holy and we find our rest in Him.
Again, fulfilling the shadow.

Adventists make the mistake of taking something infinitely Holy and beyond human understanding, and trying to tie it to something very limited… a particular day of the week.

God Bless,
MarysRoses

 

[KathleenGee]

I think what is also very interesting…is how following the letter of the law causes those to condemn other people…and I do not see belief in Christ as Redeemer in such attachments to which day of the week one worships.

I like John’s last post of whom the law was intended.

And in looking back at Exodus 32: 15-20, when Moses was coming down with the two tablets of the ten commandments hearing the revelry of worshipping the idol of the Golden Calf under Aaron:

‘Moses then turned and came down the mountain with the two tablets of the commandments in his hands, tablets that were written on both sides, front and back, tablets that were made by God,** having inscriptions on them that were engraved by God Himself**. Now, when Joshua heard the noise of the people shouting, he said to Moses, “That sounds like a battle in the camp.” But Moses said, “It does not sound like cries of defeat; the sounds that I hear are cries of revelry.” As he drew near the camp, he saw the calf, and the dancing. With that, Moses’ wrath flared up, so that he threw the tablets down and broke them on the base of the mountain. Taking the calf they had made, he fused it in the fire and then ground it down to powder, which he scattered on the water and made the Israelites drink.’

Now the tablets of the ten commandments were put into water and the Israelites forced to drink, and the end of the Aaronite priesthood.

That Moses had the freedom to destroy God’s own handiwork in His tablets containing the 10 commandments…also is reflected as well as our purification and new life in the waters of Baptism, and Christ also having the power to appoint His representative Peter, as head…and giving the Church the freedom to bind and loose, Christ’s redemptive power at work in us.

 

[meltzerboy]

(cont from previous post)

From our official Catechism, not some simplified pamphlet or article…

---

I. THE SABBATH DAY

2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."92

2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."93

2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord’s day a memorial of Israel’s liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."94

2171 God entrusted the sabbath to Israel to keep as a sign of the irrevocable covenant.95 The sabbath is for the Lord, holy and set apart for the praise of God, his work of creation, and his saving actions on behalf of Israel.

2172 God’s action is the model for human action. If God “rested and was refreshed” on the seventh day, man too ought to “rest” and should let others, especially the poor, "be refreshed."96 The sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is a day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.97

2173 The Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of this day.98 He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."99 With compassion, Christ declares the sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing.100 The sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God.101 "The Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath."102

II. THE LORD’S DAY

This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.103
The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the “first day,” the day of Christ’s Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the “eighth day” following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ’s Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord’s Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106
Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord’s Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

---

It might help to understand a bit more before making accusations of “changing God’s law” .

The letter of the law brings only death…

The spirit gives life.

How do you enter into the divine rest? Under the old covenant… God gave them a finite day to enter into this divine reality. Under the new… We have God Himself in the person of His divine Son, Jesus.
The Jews failed to enter into this divine, HOLY beyond human conception, rest that was hidden in the shadow of a day…
Christians have Jesus, who is all Holy and we find our rest in Him.
Again, fulfilling the shadow.

Adventists make the mistake of taking something infinitely Holy and beyond human understanding, and trying to tie it to something very limited… a particular day of the week.

God Bless,
MarysRoses

Mary, I have two points of disagreement that are central to your very interesting argument. One is the idea that if one breaks one commandment of the 613 (actually far fewer today since the destruction of the Temple), one breaks them all. To the best of my knowledge, this is not part of Jewish teaching in the Hebrew Bible (particularly the Torah) or in the Oral Law (Talmud), but rather a reshaping that appears in the New Testament. According to Jewish Law, one may atone for the sin of breaking a particular commandment although one has successfully adhered to many others. The second point I take issue with is your mention that the reference to the Sabbath in Deuteronomy states that it is applicable to the present generation, not to our fathers. This expression is used also during the Passover Seder, in which one reads in the Haggadah that G-d has delivered ME from Egypt, NOT OUR FATHERS. The purpose of this phrase is to emphasize the personal nature of the Law for each individual, as well as its immediacy and eternity through its being handed down from one generation to the next in the form of a continuous oral tradition which is not frozen in the past or in writing. The phrase cannot therefore be interpreted literally.

 

[Berachiah]

It might help to understand a bit more before making accusations of “changing God’s law” .

The letter of the law brings only death…

The spirit gives life.

How do you enter into the divine rest? Under the old covenant… God gave them a finite day to enter into this divine reality. Under the new… We have God Himself in the person of His divine Son, Jesus.
The Jews failed to enter into this divine, HOLY beyond human conception, rest that was hidden in the shadow of a day…
Christians have Jesus, who is all Holy and we find our rest in Him.
Again, fulfilling the shadow.

Adventists make the mistake of taking something infinitely Holy and beyond human understanding, and trying to tie it to something very limited… a particular day of the week.

God Bless,
MarysRoses

Thank you very much MarysRoses for the very informative and enlightening posts. And to KathleenGee too who contributes to the discussion.

 

[MarysRoses]

Mary, I have two points of disagreement that are central to your very interesting argument. One is the idea that if one breaks one commandment of the 613 (actually far fewer today since the destruction of the Temple), one breaks them all. To the best of my knowledge, this is not part of Jewish teaching in the Hebrew Bible (particularly the Torah) or in the Oral Law (Talmud), but rather a reshaping that appears in the New Testament. According to Jewish Law, one may atone for the sin of breaking a particular commandment although one has successfully adhered to many others. The second point I take issue with is your mention that the reference to the Sabbath in Deuteronomy states that it is applicable to the present generation, not to our fathers. This expression is used also during the Passover Seder, in which one reads in the Haggadah that G-d has delivered ME from Egypt, NOT OUR FATHERS. The purpose of this phrase is to emphasize the personal nature of the Law for each individual, as well as its immediacy and eternity through its being handed down from one generation to the next in the form of a continuous oral tradition which is not frozen in the past or in writing. The phrase cannot therefore be interpreted literally.

I respect your opinion, but I’d like to point out I was addressing the Christian perspective on the Sabbath and the Old Covenant Law, not the Jewish perspective. The NT is clear that to break one is to break them all, and that we cannot atone for ourselves. There is no sacrifice for us other than Jesus who is God.

Modern day Jewish perspectives on the 613 commandments do vary. From the Ultra-Orthodox to the Reformed. Many liberal Jews today do not find a contradiction in keeping Jewish Tradition and being a Jew, and also being agnostic if not atheistic. There are Humanistic Jewish organizations and Buddhist Jewish organizations.

Adventists are free to hold Jewish positions on the Law and commandments, but it is not a Christian perspective.

Marysroses.

 

[jmjconder]

**I wish to get this OP back on track.

Let us put aside the various meanings of the word Sabbath.

What does “keep it holy” mean for non-Catholics? Catholics are taught that this Commandment, at the very least means attending the Liturgy of the Day.

What is expected from other denominations? What does “keep it holy” means. If it does not include attending church - then how do people (on their own) know they have followed this Commandment?**

 

[mrasell]

Your religion is based on a certain day of the week. Watch out for phariseeism.

Both Catholics, Presbyterians and SDA’s accept that we should keep the Sabbath, the difference is which day and does man have the authority to change God’s law.

Jesus always kept God’s laws but rejected the man made rules of the Pharisees.
"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? " Mt. 15:3

The same is true of the Sabbath, Jesus rejected the man made rules that said one could not heal on the Sabbath or pluck a few grains of corn to satisfy hunger. These were not God’s laws but human rules.

 

[mrasell]

They see history as simply Papal domination from the late 500’s AD to 1700’s AD. The Pope is the Anti-Christ because the popes wore ‘a tiara having the inscription: Viceregent of the Son of God’.

There has never been such an inscription used on a papal tiara according to Catholic sources, and the only ones bringing this out are the Biblical websites having the Catholic Church as one of the horns mentioned in Revelations.

In response to a readers question, the Catholic journal, Our Sunday Visitor for April 18, 1915 replied, “The letters inscribed in the Pope’s mitre [his priestly crown] are these, Vicarius Filii Dei, which is the Latin for Vicar of the Son of God. Catholics hold that the Church, which is a visible society, must have a visible head.”

Papal documents frequently refer to the Pope as the Vicar of Christ.

On Aug 3, 1941, the same Catholic magazine carried an article: “Pope’s Tiara Not Inscribed” which appears to contradict the one in 1915. The article mention Seventh-day Adventists and says the title is not inscribed on the Pope’s tiara.
This article is unclear because the mitre and tiara are two different crowns, so this does not actually deny that it is on the mitre.

Cardinal Manning wrote a book entitled, “The Temporal Power of the Vicar of Jesus Christ”.

 

[mrasell]

First, the Catholic Church does NOT claim that Sunday is the biblical Sabbath transferred to another day. This is a straw man argument.

In a best selling book, The Faith of Millions, John A O’Brien a RC scholar said,
“Since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn’t it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes of course it is inconsistent.”

He goes on to say that Sunday observance “rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away – like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock from her hair.” (John A, O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, rev. ed. (Huntingdon, IN: Our Sunday Visitor Inc., 1974), pp. 400-401)

The key issue for me is that God sanctified the 7th day at Creation (Gen. 2:2-3), no where in Scripture is it stated that this was abolished or changed to another day. The Sabbath is an eternal memorial of Creation, and part of the 10 commandments, God’s eternal moral law.

 

[mrasell]

I respect your opinion, but I’d like to point out I was addressing the Christian perspective on the Sabbath and the Old Covenant Law, not the Jewish perspective. The NT is clear that to break one is to break them all, and that we cannot atone for ourselves. There is no sacrifice for us other than Jesus who is God.

Modern day Jewish perspectives on the 613 commandments do vary. From the Ultra-Orthodox to the Reformed. Many liberal Jews today do not find a contradiction in keeping Jewish Tradition and being a Jew, and also being agnostic if not atheistic. There are Humanistic Jewish organizations and Buddhist Jewish organizations.

Adventists are free to hold Jewish positions on the Law and commandments, but it is not a Christian perspective.

Marysroses.

The concept of there being moral, ceremonial and civil law is I believe shared by the Catholic Church.

The Christian perpsective is that the ceremonial and civil laws ended at the cross, but not the 10 commandments and the eternal moral law.

The disagreement is over whether the Sabbath should be classified as moral or ceremonial.

Although there were 613 laws, the covenant was based on the 10 commandments according to Deuteronomy 4:13. Jesus and the Apostles affirmed the 10 commandments. And John speaks of the Ark of the Covenant in God’s temple in heaven (Rev. 11:19).

When James says, if you break one, you break them all, he refers to two of the 10 commandments (James 2:10-11).

Paul clearly saw a difference between the moral and ceremonial laws:
“Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.” 1 Cor. 7:19

 

[JustaServant]

In response to a readers question, the Catholic journal, Our Sunday Visitor for April 18, 1915 replied, “The letters inscribed in the Pope’s mitre [his priestly crown] are these, Vicarius Filii Dei, which is the Latin for Vicar of the Son of God. Catholics hold that the Church, which is a visible society, must have a visible head.”

Papal documents frequently refer to the Pope as the Vicar of Christ.

On Aug 3, 1941, the same Catholic magazine carried an article: “Pope’s Tiara Not Inscribed” which appears to contradict the one in 1915. The article mention Seventh-day Adventists and says the title is not inscribed on the Pope’s tiara.
This article is unclear because the mitre and tiara are two different crowns, so this does not actually deny that it is on the mitre.

Cardinal Manning wrote a book entitled, “The Temporal Power of the Vicar of Jesus Christ”.

So, why don’t you just come out and say it?
Do you believe the Pope is the anti-christ?

 

[JustaServant]

The concept of there being moral, ceremonial and civil law is I believe shared by the Catholic Church.

The Christian perpsective is that the ceremonial and civil laws ended at the cross, but not the 10 commandments and the eternal moral law.

Why do you separate the Catholic Church from Christian?

 

[Farsight001]

In response to a readers question, the Catholic journal, Our Sunday Visitor for April 18, 1915 replied, “The letters inscribed in the Pope’s mitre [his priestly crown] are these, Vicarius Filii Dei, which is the Latin for Vicar of the Son of God. Catholics hold that the Church, which is a visible society, must have a visible head.”

Yes, it is true this has happened. And Our Sunday Visitor, realizing it’s MISTAKE, printed multiple retractions.

Papal documents frequently refer to the Pope as the Vicar of Christ.

So? Vicar of Christ translates to Vicarius Christi. Vicarius Filii Dei means “Vicar of the Son of God”, which you will not find the pope referred to as.

On Aug 3, 1941, the same Catholic magazine carried an article: “Pope’s Tiara Not Inscribed” which appears to contradict the one in 1915. The article mention Seventh-day Adventists and says the title is not inscribed on the Pope’s tiara.
This article is unclear because the mitre and tiara are two different crowns, so this does not actually deny that it is on the mitre.

How about you mention the retraction printed, I think, also in 1915, which did specify? Or how about you produce pictures of these so called mitres?

Cardinal Manning wrote a book entitled, “The Temporal Power of the Vicar of Jesus Christ”.

Which, again, would translate as Vicarius Jesu Christi, not Vicarius Filii Dei.

But this is all besides the point. Scripture says specifically that 666 would represent the NAME of the beast. No matter how you try to spin it, whether Vicarius Filii Dei is a real or fake title, it is still a TITLE, not a name. So it is not applicable.

 

[mrasell]

Why do you separate the Catholic Church from Christian?

My point was that both Catholic and Protestant uphold the moral laws of the Old Testament.

 

[mrasell]

But this is all besides the point. Scripture says specifically that 666 would represent the NAME of the beast. No matter how you try to spin it, whether Vicarius Filii Dei is a real or fake title, it is still a TITLE, not a name. So it is not applicable.

We are told that the number of the beast is six hundred and sixty six (Rev. 13:18).

There are two relevant references to this number in the Hebrew Bible:

1. The Scriptures tell us that Solomon received six hundred and sixty six talents of gold in one year of his reign (1 Kings 10:14). God had warned the people through Moses that when they wanted a king like the other nations, he was not to multiply gold, horses and wives (Deuteronomy 17:14-17). Despite the warning of the prophet, Solomon did the very things he was warned not to. The affluence of Solomon and his many heathen wives was the beginning of his idolatry and worship of other gods.
2. The other significant occurrence of the number is found in the book of Daniel. After King Nebuchadnezzar had received the vision of the metal man that foretold the end of his empire, he later repented of his submission to God and built an image made entirely of gold (Daniel 3:1). He wanted to make sure his empire would last forever, contrary to the vision he had been given (Daniel 2:31-35), so he made his idol completely of gold. In this way he tried to defy God’s plans for the world. He called together all the leading officials of his realm and decreed that anyone who refused to bow down and worship his image would be cast into a fiery furnace! There is evidence that there may have been some sort of rebellion in the Babylonian empire about this time. Therefore the image could have been seen as a test of loyalty to the king. It is interesting that the dimensions of the golden image were sixty cubit high and six cubits wide. This would suggest that it was also six cubits deep, given that they used a sexagesimal numerical system, so we have a link to the number six hundred and sixty six.

In both stories we see that this number is linked to false worship and the breaking of God’s commandments. A final test of loyalty is about to come upon the earth, some will receive the seal of God (Revelation 7:2-3) while others will receive the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:17; 14:9). The saints however remain faithful to Jesus and God’s commandments (Rev. 14:12).

The wording of Revelation 14:7 echoes that of the fourth commandment:

“worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters”.

“For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” (Exodus 20:11)

(taken from my book, exploring the heavenly sanctuary, chapter 11)

 

[mrasell]

So, why don’t you just come out and say it?
Do you believe the Pope is the anti-christ?

In Greek “anti” means to take the place of, therefore someone who seeks to take prerogatives belonging to Christ alone is a form of antichrist. The Scriptures say there is only one mediator between man and God, which is Christ:
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5)

Man cannot change God’s laws because they are unchangeable:
“all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever” Ps. 111:7-8

 

[JustaServant]

In Greek “anti” means to take the place of, therefore someone who seeks to take prerogatives belonging to Christ alone is a form of antichrist. The Scriptures say there is only one mediator between man and God, which is Christ:
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5)

Man cannot change God’s laws because they are unchangeable:
“all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever” Ps. 111:7-8

And…
Why don’t you just answer the question?
Do you beleive the Pope is the anti-christ?

 

[Farsight001]

We are told that the number of the beast is six hundred and sixty six (Rev. 13:18).

There are two relevant references to this number in the Hebrew Bible:

1. The Scriptures tell us that Solomon received six hundred and sixty six talents of gold in one year of his reign (1 Kings 10:14). God had warned the people through Moses that when they wanted a king like the other nations, he was not to multiply gold, horses and wives (Deuteronomy 17:14-17). Despite the warning of the prophet, Solomon did the very things he was warned not to. The affluence of Solomon and his many heathen wives was the beginning of his idolatry and worship of other gods.
2. The other significant occurrence of the number is found in the book of Daniel. After King Nebuchadnezzar had received the vision of the metal man that foretold the end of his empire, he later repented of his submission to God and built an image made entirely of gold (Daniel 3:1). He wanted to make sure his empire would last forever, contrary to the vision he had been given (Daniel 2:31-35), so he made his idol completely of gold. In this way he tried to defy God’s plans for the world. He called together all the leading officials of his realm and decreed that anyone who refused to bow down and worship his image would be cast into a fiery furnace! There is evidence that there may have been some sort of rebellion in the Babylonian empire about this time. Therefore the image could have been seen as a test of loyalty to the king. It is interesting that the dimensions of the golden image were sixty cubit high and six cubits wide. This would suggest that it was also six cubits deep, given that they used a sexagesimal numerical system, so we have a link to the number six hundred and sixty six.

In both stories we see that this number is linked to false worship and the breaking of God’s commandments. A final test of loyalty is about to come upon the earth, some will receive the seal of God (Revelation 7:2-3) while others will receive the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:17; 14:9). The saints however remain faithful to Jesus and God’s commandments (Rev. 14:12).

The wording of Revelation 14:7 echoes that of the fourth commandment:

“worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters”.

“For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” (Exodus 20:11)

(taken from my book, exploring the heavenly sanctuary, chapter 11)

I already knew all that and it was in no way a response to what I said. What was the point of posting any of that?

In Greek “anti” means to take the place of, therefore someone who seeks to take prerogatives belonging to Christ alone is a form of antichrist. The Scriptures say there is only one mediator between man and God, which is Christ:
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5)

Do you know what a mediator is? Can you provide a definition like you might find in a dictionary? I promise, this has a point.