Reminder: No calling Catholics or Orthodox uniates, schismatics, or heretics

[Catherine_Grant]

I will be moderating for this strictly–don’t use uniate, schismatic, or heretic or any derivative of them as general descriptors for Catholic or Orthodox churches or people. It’s happening with too much regularity lately. If you use these words as general descriptors, your entire post will be deleted. Do it again and you’ll be suspended. There are plenty of other words to choose from. Find and use them, please.

Problems with inappropriate content should be reported via the “Report Post” feature. Just click the http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/report.gif image in the problematic post and fill out the form.
**
May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator**

Sticky: Important Forum Information

Historically, the term Uniate was employed relatively freely by the Catholic Churches, including those of the East and Orient, as well as by the Orthodox Churches.

During a period in the 20th century, it took on a pejorative nature when it was perceived as being used sneeringly by some Orthodox (principally those of the Eastern, rather than the Oriental, Churches). As a result, the Eastern and Oriental Catholics ceased using the term in reference to themselves, particularly in America, where the majority of CAF’s posters reside.

In recent history, there has been some increase in the use of the term by Rome itself and by some Eastern and Oriental Catholics. The subject has been much discussed here in the past, expressing that a large segment of CAF’s Eastern and Oriental Catholics continue to view the term to be an offensive pejorative. As such, the abiding guideline was a ban of the term uniate, along with heretic and schismatic (and their derivative forms), when they are used in a manner that smacks of them being confrontational, contemptuous, disparaging, inciteful, insulting, taunting, or worse.

Knowing the offense taken by many of the Eastern and Oriental Catholics who post here, and knowing the historical context for their concern, using the term uniate as a generic descriptor for Catholics of the Eastern and Oriental Churches who are in union with Rome is by nature confrontational and uncharitable and as such is not allowed. Likewise, the use of the terms schismatic or heretic may not be used as generic descriptors for any of the Eastern or Oriental Churches, whether Catholic or Orthodox.

An example of acceptable usage of the terms is a direct quote of a third-party document which is otherwise pertinent to an ongoing discussion. Care should be taken by all posters that their choice of words foster an environment in which it is possible to discuss, dialogue, dissent, and even debate without causing offense or acrimony between posters.

** Note that ascribing these terms to the faithful or to individual members of any of the Apostolic Churches is absolutely unacceptable and will not be tolerated.**

Please review our Charity guidelines first, and if you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact a forum moderator.

 

[notredame_999]

With all due respect moderator, what is wrong with with calling an Orthodox a schismatic from a Catholic perspective? Isn’t that what they did from a Catholic perspective? I’m sure the Orthodox view us the same way. By definition a heretic is someone who doesn’t believe in the full truth. Well, the Orthodox don’t believe in purgatory, original sin, or the immaculate conception so what are they? I’m not trying to instigate things here but I dont understand the political correctness.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear Notre Dame,

How do you know the Orthodox don’t believe in Original Sin? They do indeed!

As for the Immaculate Conception - in fact, the Orthodox don’t accept the Latin definition, but they have always believed that Mary was without any stain of sin, from the moment of her Conception (in fact, the feast of the Conception of St Anne first arose in the East and Catholic England was the first to accept it - as only the feast of Saints can be celebrated, the fact that the Orthodox Church celebrated the Conception means that the Conception of the Mother of God was holy and sanctified).

In fact, Orthodoxy believes that those who have died and who need purification, penance and prayer afterwards for smaller sins and for “satisfaction” (there, you have me using Latin theological terms - are you happy? ) cannot go to heaven until that satisfaction is rendered (primarily through the prayers of the Church, the Divine Liturgy etc.).

So, unfortunately, you are wrong on these scores. Simply because the Orthodox don’t accept the Latin theological tradition doesn’t mean that they do not have their own tradition on the subjects of Triadology, Theotokology (or Mariology in the West), Eschatology and Ecclesiology.

And also, at what time has Rome ever declared the Orthodox “heretics?” Could you point to a Papal ruling or one of the Councils? Any at all? To say that “since the Orthodox don’t accept this or that Latin tradition - therefore they must be heretics” will not cut it.

As an Eastern Catholic, I appeal to Rome on this matter.

As for Schism - I think Catholics and Orthodox have advanced a bit since 1054 AD. Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras have lifted the excommunications between their Churches etc.

We all need to “judge with right judgement” and I applaud the Administrator on her ruling here and this is about theological correctness rather than political correctness.

FYI, my great uncle was the (Redemptorist) Archbishop Locum Tenens of the underground Ukrainian Catholic Church and I have a few other relatives who died as martyrs for union with Rome.

I don’t like being called a “Uniate,” nor to hear Catholics being called “heretics” nor Orthodox “schismatics.” All this belongs to our mutual sad past and we should leave it there.

Alex

 

[MerryCatholic]

I will be moderating for this strictly–don’t use uniate, schismatic, or heretic or any derivative of them as general descriptors for Catholic or Orthodox churches or people. It’s happening with too much regularity lately. If you use these words as general descriptors, your entire post will be deleted. Do it again and you’ll be suspended. There are plenty of other words to choose from. Find and use them, please.

Problems with inappropriate content should be reported via the “Report Post” feature. Just click the http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/report.gif image in the problematic post and fill out the form.
**
May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator**

Thank you for moderators! May God bless you also abundantly!

 

[Lutheranteach]

how about not using those terms at all.

 

[stuart12]

The Catholic Faith is allowed to be obscured for the sake of niceness.
If the Eastern ‘Orthodox’ were once part of the Catholic Church and are now not, what are they other than schismatic?

 

[malphono]

It seems to me that this thread was meant merely a heads-up reminder where the mod made reference to long standing forum rules. Please don’t jump down my throat for saying this, but it also seems to me that it might not be a very good idea to argue with the moderator in this forum.

:twocents:

 

[Catherine_Grant]

With all due respect moderator, what is wrong with with calling an Orthodox a schismatic from a Catholic perspective? Isn’t that what they did from a Catholic perspective?

Not on the Eastern Catholicism forum, they won’t!

Confrontational, contemptuous, disparaging, inciteful, insulting, and taunting choices of words do not meet the level of charity that is required when discussing complex topics such as what Catholics and Orthodox agree or disagree on. Blanket statements (e.g. they don’t believe in Original Sin) do not respect the complexity of the topics discussed here. Entire threads discuss the nuances of such topics from many angles, and our churches’ foremost theologians discuss, debate, agree, and disagree on them at great length. Concise and disparaging summaries (e.g. “they’re heretical”) are usually arrogant and often ignorant and do not foster an environment in which it is possible to discuss, dialogue, dissent, and debate without causing offense or acrimony between posters.

For example, if a person wanted to discuss, disagree with, or debate the topic of the Orthodox beliefs concerning the Immaculate Conception, besides being more appropriately placed in the Non-Catholic Religions or Apologetics forums, the person would do well to lay out a reasonable argument, cite sources, and explain his or her perspective and personal experiences. That would foster charitable discussion, dialogue, and debate.

Example I - Why the Orthodox are wrong about the IC - AKA: What not to do.
Poster 1: Orthodox are a bunch of heretics who don’t even believe in the Immaculate Conception. Saint A’s locution proves Mary’s Immaculate Conception, but they don’t even recognize her as a saint because they don’t have any way of teaching unified thoughts since they don’t have a pope. I’m so happy that I’m Catholic and have the fullness of faith available to me and am not subject to the whims of headless bishops!

Poster 2: You don’t know what you’re talking about, you idiot. Even Catholics don’t have to accept Saint A’s locutions as true. At least the Orthodox don’t have spineless uniates! If anyone is discombobulated, it’s them!

Poster 1: I’d rather be a uniate than a nationalistic schismatic! And what do you call the Western Rite, huh?

Poster 2: I’d rather be a nationalist schismatic with the fullness of truth as Christ gave the Church than a heretical Roman in communion with an egotist.

Moderator: Due to the lack of charity and fruitless discussion, this thread is now closed.

Example II - Catholic/Orthodox Debate on the IC - AKA: What to do.
Poster 1: Pope W wrote in Encyclical A that N is the Catholic belief concerning the Immaculate Conception. Saint X said M concerning the Immaculate Conception. Theologian Dr. Y quoted Pope Z in her book saying it is heretical to hold beliefs O, P, or Q. It is my understanding that Orthodoxy teaches O and Q, which are heretical beliefs according to Pope Z. Here is an official website saying so. Here is an Orthodox saint teaching that. Here is an Orthodox theologian specifically addressing the topic and disagreeing with Rome.

Poster 2: Pope W was later refuted by Pope R who said* E*. Pope W’s encyclical is not dogmatic. The dogmatic proclamation concerning the Immaculate Conception says F. Dr. Y mistranslated Pope Z and a more accurate translation is G. This catechetical program put out by the pan-Orthodox publisher says H about the Immaculate Conception, which does not appear to be at odds with the dogmatic proclamation posted on the Vatican website here.

Poster 3: Pope Saint J and early church fathers K and L wrote extensively on the topic. They said that Mary sinned during her life and that her bodily death was the wage of her sin. They specifically taught against the Immaculate Conception.

Poster 4: You’re all a bunch of idiots quoting &^%*^%$ saints and popes. When are you going to wake up and realize those dead old guys are the reason we have the patriarchal system that disenfranchises women and reduces them to objects? The Immaculate Conception was created to perpetuate this myth of women being meek and humble servants of men. They have to be virgin sex objects and nothing more and as long as they don’t reach the “perfect” example of the “immaculate” Mary then men can continue to subjugate them to their win-lose primal form of oppression and servitude. The so-called “Jesus” was the biggest patriarchal oppressor of them all, right up there with Muhammad and Hitler. Jesus and Mary are the reason we have abortions today.

Poster 1: Where did Pope Saint J say that, Poster 3? The only thing I can find from him on the topic says the opposite so I’d be interested in seeing your sources. What I can find is here and he says C.

Moderator: It looks like I need to moderate Poster 4 who was uncharitable and off-topic and agenda-driven… at least no one responded to the post, creating more work for me. I really don’t like it when a perfectly fine conversation is being had and someone comes along and tries to throw a wrench in it like that. I’m so happy that the other posters are discussing and debating charitably, choosing their words carefully, and making this forum flourish with salt and light.

I hope this illustrates the difference.

 

[Harpazo]

I will be moderating for this strictly–don’t use uniate, schismatic, or heretic or any derivative of them as general descriptors for Catholic or Orthodox churches or people. It’s happening with too much regularity lately. If you use these words as general descriptors, your entire post will be deleted. Do it again and you’ll be suspended. There are plenty of other words to choose from. Find and use them, please.

Problems with inappropriate content should be reported via the “Report Post” feature. Just click the http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/report.gif image in the problematic post and fill out the form.
**
May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator**

Isn’t the intent all the same? I had a similar conversation with a friend who said curse words are only bad because of the meaning we give them. She said that one could circumvent using derogatory words by making up another word in its place to not get in trouble at work or judged by her peers. However, if someone comes up with another way to say uniate or heretic or schismatic, aren’t they probably intending the same meaning, just being creative and PC with it?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Catherine_Grant]

Isn’t the intent all the same? I had a similar conversation with a friend who said curse words are only bad because of the meaning we give them. She said that one could circumvent using derogatory words by making up another word in its place to not get in trouble at work or judged by her peers. However, if someone comes up with another way to say uniate or heretic or schismatic, aren’t they probably intending the same meaning, just being creative and PC with it?

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew,

Our charity guidelines do not allow posters to use confrontational, contemptuous, disparaging, inciteful, insulting, or taunting choices of words. Our policy on the use of the words uniate, schismatic, and heretic highlight three words often used in that manner but it is not an exhaustive list. You are correct to point out that a replacement word with the same intent is not sufficient to foster an environment of discussion, dialogue, and debate. If someone decides to try that, please bring the post to my attention.

Posting here requires posters to comment with charity. It isn’t that hard for most, but I’m here for those few who seem to have difficulty with it.

 

[Aramis]

It seems to me that this thread was meant merely a heads-up reminder where the mod made reference to long standing forum rules. Please don’t jump down my throat for saying this, but it also seems to me that it might not be a very good idea to argue with the moderator in this forum.

:twocents:

A long standing bad rule based firmly in Politically-Correct-dreamland…

Many church documents use the terms Unia and Uniate.

And the orthodox are material schismatics, as the Vatican defines the term.

 

[5Loaves]

I will be moderating for this strictly–don’t use uniate, schismatic, or heretic or any derivative of them as general descriptors for Catholic or Orthodox churches or people. It’s happening with too much regularity lately. If you use these words as general descriptors, your entire post will be deleted. Do it again and you’ll be suspended. There are plenty of other words to choose from. Find and use them, please.

Problems with inappropriate content should be reported via the “Report Post” feature. Just click the http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/report.gif image in the problematic post and fill out the form.
**
May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator**

Please be reminded of this. These terms have cropped up again in recent days. As our moderator says “There are plenty of other words to choose from. Find and use them, please.”

Thank you.