Removal of "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance

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erbo

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So in my daily internet surfing, I stumbled across this wonderful site (sarcasm):

restorethepledge.org/

The mission of this web site is to remove the clause “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance. They claim that there “can be no freedom OF religion WITHOUT freedom FROM government promoted religion”. They also claim that the original pledge of allegiance never had “under God” in it, and it was added in 1954.

Having said that, I know the Christians on this forum would strongly disagree with removing “under God”, but please consider these questions:
  1. Why was “under God” added to the pledge in 1954?
  2. Does saying “under God” really transform the pledge to make a religious statement?
  3. Is it fair for the people who do not believe they are “under God”, or even those who do not believe in any God in the first place to have to say it as part of the pledge?
  4. In general, when is it appropriate/inappropriate to make religious references in government (buildings, statues, legal documents, pledges, etc)?
  5. What impact does"separation of church and state" mean, as understood by a Christian? Are there boundaries that we have crossed?
The reason why I am asking these questions, is because I have been trying to understand the proper place of religion in public (government) establishments. Thanks!

-erbo
 
“one nation, under God” was added because of the fear of those Godless commie bastards back during the Cold War.

In my opinion, the phrase harms no one, nor does it impinge on anyone’s civil rights. But what do I know?
 
I’m willing to give up ‘under God’ if the liberals asking me are willing to give up abortion rights!😃
 
Michaeljc4 said:
r.
In my opinion, the phrase harms no one, nor does it impinge on anyone’s civil rights. But what do I know?
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You know as much as any of us. 🤷

But agnostics and atheists may disagree about your first statement. Some find the statement either offensive or oppressive.

Personally, I don’t think it matters. Certainly there are much more important issues to me.
 
Did you know that the fellow (or his family, he may have been dead by then) who wrote the Pledge was against the addition of “Under God”? It wasn’t what he had in mind. Personally, that carries a lot of weight with me.
 
Personally, I like having “under God” in the pledge, but it is not a big issue for me. If the people decide to remove it, I wouldn’t lose too much sleep. That said, I voted “no,” because its inclusion or removal from the pledge are both constitutional.
 
BTW…here are the answers, IMO…and understanding…
erbo said:
So in my daily internet surfing, I stumbled across this wonderful site (sarcasm):

restorethepledge.org/

The mission of this web site is to remove the clause “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance. They claim that there “can be no freedom OF religion WITHOUT freedom FROM government promoted religion”. They also claim that the original pledge of allegiance never had “under God” in it, and it was added in 1954.

Having said that, I know the Christians on this forum would strongly disagree with removing “under God”, but please consider these questions:
  1. Why was “under God” added to the pledge in 1954?
  2. Does saying “under God” really transform the pledge to make a religious statement?
  3. Is it fair for the people who do not believe they are “under God”, or even those who do not believe in any God in the first place to have to say it as part of the pledge?
  4. In general, when is it appropriate/inappropriate to make religious references in government (buildings, statues, legal documents, pledges, etc)?
  5. What impact does"separation of church and state" mean, as understood by a Christian? Are there boundaries that we have crossed?
The reason why I am asking these questions, is because I have been trying to understand the proper place of religion in public (government) establishments. Thanks!

-erbo
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  1. Because we are a predominantly Judeo/Christian nation whose founding document says, we are endowed by “our Creator.” People (including the Knights of Columbus) lobbied Congress to get it added to the pledge. A majority voted ‘yes.’
  2. Not particularly.
  3. They don’t have to say “under God” when they say the pledge.
  4. What would be inappropriate would be the government establishing a state religion; a religious test for office; teacher-led prayer in a public school in a classroom (an on-campus club wouldn’t be a problem IMO); or a law requiring a particular religious observance. What is appropriate is personal religious expression by any individual…including government employees…in speeches, documents, whatever. As far as statues, documents (10 commandments), etc., I think they are generally acceptable, but it depends on the context/purpose of said items.
  5. “Separation of Church and State” isn’t in the Constitution. The First Amendment states:
Amendment I
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
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So, basically, read the answers above and it answers question #5.
 
This seems to be the Pledge’s answer to the “Filioque” question…😃
 
erbo said:
So in my daily internet surfing, I stumbled across this wonderful site (sarcasm):

restorethepledge.org/

The mission of this web site is to remove the clause “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance. They claim that there “can be no freedom OF religion WITHOUT freedom FROM government promoted religion”. They also claim that the original pledge of allegiance never had “under God” in it, and it was added in 1954.

Having said that, I know the Christians on this forum would strongly disagree with removing “under God”, but please consider these questions:
  1. Why was “under God” added to the pledge in 1954?
  2. Does saying “under God” really transform the pledge to make a religious statement?
  3. Is it fair for the people who do not believe they are “under God”, or even those who do not believe in any God in the first place to have to say it as part of the pledge?
  4. In general, when is it appropriate/inappropriate to make religious references in government (buildings, statues, legal documents, pledges, etc)?
  5. What impact does"separation of church and state" mean, as understood by a Christian? Are there boundaries that we have crossed?
The reason why I am asking these questions, is because I have been trying to understand the proper place of religion in public (government) establishments. Thanks!

-erbo
Click to expand...
  1. Why was “under God” added to the pledge in 1954?
Because we are a nation with a Christian foundation, Believe it or not.
  1. Does saying “under God” really transform the pledge to make a religious statement?
Of course “God” is a religious statement, but just not referencing a particular religion. “One nation under Christ” would have been more accurate, but would have specified a religion.
  1. Is it fair for the people who do not believe they are “under God”, or even those who do not believe in any God in the first place to have to say it as part of the pledge?
Only if they wish to live and prosper here, they are always free to move to another country.
  1. In general, when is it appropriate/inappropriate to make religious references in government (buildings, statues, legal documents, pledges, etc)?
When it has a historical or moral significance.
  1. What impact does “separation of church and state” mean, as understood by a Christian? Are there boundaries that we have crossed?
It means that government has no place defining beliefs (doctrine or moral) or worship practices of any religion. Individual Christians are free to insert and live out their beliefs, both doctrinal and moral in everything they do and say. I have a protected right to speak and act freely in accord with my beliefs. as long as it does not bring harm or injury to another person or their property.

Sometimes government representatives try and cross a line. For instance telling me that I am not permitted to wear an external visible crucifix when in a public school building. I reminded them that the Constitution prohibited them from even making reference to my religious symbol.
 
We Catholics are responsible!

From the Knights of Columbus web site:
The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States originated on Columbus Day, 1893. It contained no reference to Almighty God, until in New York City on April 22, 1951, the Board of Directors of the Knights of Columbus adopted a resolution to amend the Pledge of Allegiance as recited at the opening of each of the meetings of the 800 Fourth Degree Assemblies of the Knights of Columbus by the addition of the words “under God” after the words “one nation”. . . .

At its annual meeting the following year, on August 20, 1953, the Supreme Council of the Knights of Columbus repeated its resolution to make this amendment to the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag general and to send copies of this resolve to the President, Vice President, Speaker of the House, and to each member of both Houses of Congress.

From this latter action, many favorable replies were received, and a total of seventeen resolutions were introduced in the House of Representatives to so amend the Pledge of Allegiance as set forth in the Public Law relating to the use of the flag. The resolution introduced by Congressman Louis C. Rabaut of Michigan was adopted by both Houses of Congress, and it was signed by President Eisenhower on Flag Day, June 14, 1954, thereby making official the amendment conceived, sponsored, and put into practice by the Knights of Columbus more than three years before.

In a message to Supreme Knight Luke E. Hart at the meeting of the Supreme Council in Louisville, August 17, 1954, President Eisenhower, in recognition of the initiative of the Knights of Columbus in originating and sponsoring the amendment to the Pledge of Allegiance, said:

“We are particularly thankful to you for your part in the movement to have the words ‘under God’ added to our Pledge of Allegiance. These words will remind Americans that despite our great physical strength we must remain humble. They will help us to keep constantly in our minds and hearts the spiritual and moral principles which alone give dignity to man, and upon which our way of life is founded. For the contribution which your organization has made to this cause, we must be genuinely grateful.”
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Why would God Favor the USA over other nations and people? The founders by and large were not Christians or in some cases nominally so. SO to argue that this nation was founded Christian is just not true.

Adding Under God to the pledge is a lesson in self righteousness that we Americans are famous for, and so hated by the rest of the world.
 
fpawlak said:
Why would God Favor the USA over other nations and people? The founders by and large were not Christians or in some cases nominally so. SO to argue that this nation was founded Christian is just not true.

Adding Under God to the pledge is a lesson in self righteousness that we Americans are famous for, and so hated by the rest of the world.
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First of all, your claim that the founders “by and large were not Christians or in some cases nominally so” is a complete falsehood and not supportable by the facts.

Secondly, “under God” in the pledge does not mean that God favors “the USA over other nations and people,” so you are two-for-two on complete falsehoods. “Under God” is a recognition that our rights come from our Creator, as the Declaration says, and that we recognize the fact that our very existence as a country would not be possible without God’s help.
 
Robert,

Please tell me which of the founding fathers were deeply Christian? What facts and basis of those facts are you citing?

I will partially concede your second point, but me thinks your logic a bit tortured. Saying that we as a nation are under God means that we are under God’s guidance or protected by him. Where does your evidence come in to support that.

Cheers,
Frank
 
Yes, the Pledge would be more constitutional if “under God” was removed. The more important question is, what does the Constitution have to do with the Pledge?

But even more important than that is that our Nation is not under God – by its many ungodly policies, it long ago abandoned that umbrella. It is not indivisible, it is divided along economic, political and ethnic lines. It does not provide liberty and justice for all.

Why should Christians identify themselves with this nation which murders thousands and thousands of unborn every day? Constitution or no, Christianity would be better off by removing the phrase.

Let the stoning begin on the lawn in fifteen minutes.
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
  1. Why was “under God” added to the pledge in 1954?
Because we are a nation with a Christian foundation, Believe it or not.
  1. Does saying “under God” really transform the pledge to make a religious statement?
Of course “God” is a religious statement, but just not referencing a particular religion. “One nation under Christ” would have been more accurate, but would have specified a religion.
  1. Is it fair for the people who do not believe they are “under God”, or even those who do not believe in any God in the first place to have to say it as part of the pledge?
Only if they wish to live and prosper here, they are always free to move to another country.
  1. In general, when is it appropriate/inappropriate to make religious references in government (buildings, statues, legal documents, pledges, etc)?
When it has a historical or moral significance.
  1. What impact does “separation of church and state” mean, as understood by a Christian? Are there boundaries that we have crossed?
It means that government has no place defining beliefs (doctrine or moral) or worship practices of any religion. Individual Christians are free to insert and live out their beliefs, both doctrinal and moral in everything they do and say. I have a protected right to speak and act freely in accord with my beliefs. as long as it does not bring harm or injury to another person or their property.

Sometimes government representatives try and cross a line. For instance telling me that I am not permitted to wear an external visible crucifix when in a public school building. I reminded them that the Constitution prohibited them from even making reference to my religious symbol.
Click to expand...
👍 Because we are a nation with a Christian foundation, believe it or not…I like that, it reminds me of something I have to say when proclaiming some fact or plan or idea; whether you like it or not…, whether you believe it or not…, whether you understand it or not… Some things a person likes aren’t good for them, some things a person believes aren’t truth, and sometimes we don’t have good understanding. We are free to reject good and embrace evil. The inclusion of God in our daily life is, by definition a good thing. This is my perspective but it can’t rightfully be legislated and forced on all people. My position is to keep “under God” in the Pledge and allow some tolerance of peaceful opposition. Colmcille:)
 
fpawlak said:
Robert,

Please tell me which of the founding fathers were deeply Christian? What facts and basis of those facts are you citing?
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“Deeply” Christian? What is your criteria, and how do you expect to determine that? I would reasonably assume that the depth of their faith varied, just as the depth of faith of any congregation varies.

Here is a list of their religious affiliations: adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html
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fpawlak:
I will partially concede your second point, but me thinks your logic a bit tortured. Saying that we as a nation are under God means that we are under God’s guidance or protected by him. Where does your evidence come in to support that.

Cheers,
Frank
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I don’t believe in torture. 😉 😛

Here is a quote of a message from Eisenhower which explains the significance of “under God”:
In a message to Supreme Knight Luke E. Hart at the meeting of the Supreme Council in Louisville, August 17, 1954, President Eisenhower, in recognition of the initiative of the Knights of Columbus in originating and sponsoring the amendment to the Pledge of Allegiance, said:

“We are particularly thankful to you for your part in the movement to have the words ‘under God’ added to our Pledge of Allegiance. These words will remind Americans that despite our great physical strength we must remain humble. They will help us to keep constantly in our minds and hearts the spiritual and moral principles which alone give dignity to man, and upon which our way of life is founded. For the contribution which your organization has made to this cause, we must be genuinely grateful.”
Click to expand...
So, “under God” doesn’t say that “God favors us over other nations.” It is a recognition of Him as the creator of the rights upon which this country is founded.
 
rlg94086 said:
“Deeply” Christian? What is your criteria, and how do you expect to determine that? I would reasonably assume that the depth of their faith varied, just as the depth of faith of any congregation varies.

Here is a list of their religious affiliations: adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html
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That link seems to have some trouble. Here is another brief article about the faith of our founders:
propertyrightsresearch.org/declaration_of_independence.htm
History
Did you know that 52 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were orthodox, deeply committed Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention.

It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society. Immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this nation.

Patrick Henry, who is called the firebrand of the American Revolution, is still remembered for his words, ‘“Give me liberty or give me death.”’ But in current textbooks the context of these words is deleted. Here is what he actually said: ‘“An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death.”’
These sentences have been erased from our textbooks. Was Patrick Henry a Christian? The following year, 1776, he wrote this ‘“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here.”’

Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well-worn Bible: ‘"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator. "’ He was also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role.

On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, ‘“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”’
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Here’s another fantastic site which goes signer by signer of the Declaration, with quotes to back up their comments.
hometown.aol.com/bayoubengalbait/page2.html

There is a whole page just for Jefferson.
hometown.aol.com/bayoubengalbait/page8.html
***"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the Liberties of a nation be secure when we ******have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my ***country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Robert,

Some of your sources are in dispute or in fact incorrect.

Thomas Jefferson: It is well known that he was a Deist and not Christian. He did believe in God, wrote his own version of the Bible which is still available in print.

Patrick Henry: There is some doubt that he uttered the words attributed to him.

Yes Eisenhower did make that statement which you quote. But does the words under God really have the effect that he speaks of. The evidence of modern American life blatantly contradicts that.

Cheers,
Frank
 
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