Removal of "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance

[rlg94086]

Robert,

Some of your sources are in dispute or in fact incorrect.

Thomas Jefferson: It is well known that he was a Deist and not Christian. He did believe in God, wrote his own version of the Bible which is still available in print.

Patrick Henry: There is some doubt that he uttered the words attributed to him.

Thomas Jefferson wrote his own version of the Bible? Wow…guess he wasn’t too religious then, eh? As far as the Patrick Henry quote - even if it turned out those words weren’t uttered, does it mean he wasn’t religious? The fact is that you claimed the following:

fpawlak:

The founders** by and large were not Christians** or in some cases nominally so.

You have no evidence whatsoever to back up that claim, yet you seem to cling to the belief.

fpawlak:

Yes Eisenhower did make that statement which you quote. But does the words under God really have the effect that he speaks of. The evidence of modern American life blatantly contradicts that.

I provided the Eisenhower quote in response to your question…

fpawlak:

Why would God Favor the USA over other nations and people?

As I have demonstrated, your implication that “under God” is there to state God’s favoring the USA is false.

If you want to discuss the faithfulness and humility of our government/country, that is a different subject - wholly unrelated to the wording of the pledge.

 

[fpawlak]

Thomas Jefferson wrote his own version of the Bible? Wow…guess he wasn’t too religious then, eh?

Yeah! He really took God Seriously didn’t he!! He felt he could improve on a divinely inspired work.

As far as the Patrick Henry quote - even if it turned out those words weren’t uttered, does it mean he wasn’t religious? The fact is that you claimed the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpawlak
The founders by and large were not Christians or in some cases nominally so.
You have no evidence whatsoever to back up that claim, yet you seem to cling to the belief.

I just gave you the evidence. Especially pointing out that your sources are incorrect. Yet you continue to attack me for not having any evidence, when in fact I have given you some.

You for get that the founders of this nation did not want anything to do with the Government and religion get entangled in any way. In fact many of them had enough of that and more in England.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). Bellamy’s original Pledge read, “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be stated in 15 seconds. He had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity but decided they were too controversial since many people opposed equal rights for women and blacks. Bellamy said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue and that the United States supports the flag:thumbsup:

The Knights of Columbus in New York City felt that the pledge was incomplete without any reference to a deity. Appealing to the authority of Abraham Lincoln, the Knights felt that the words “under God” which were from Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address were most appropriate to add to the Pledge.

So, The founders were against mixing any religion and the nation. The pledge was written as an expression of allegiance to our nation’s.flag.

So where in any of this does Eisenhower play a role???

Nowhere is the mention of a deity in the original works. In fact it was a religious organization (an organization that is part of a minor religion in this country) that provided the impetus for the under God portion of the pledge. Not the founding fathers nor the author of the pledge placed this nation under God.

Pax Christi
Frank

 

[rlg94086]

I just gave you the evidence. Especially pointing out that your sources are incorrect. Yet you continue to attack me for not having any evidence, when in fact I have given you some.

You have? When? You have made assertions and accusations with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Claiming that my sources are “in dispute” is not evidence my friend. Historians don’t agree on a lot of things. I provided quotes and information on all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence (over 50 of them), and you disputed two of the quotes. Whoopdeedoo. The majority of Founding Fathers were indeed Christian, and I would include Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson. Provide some evidence that the majority weren’t, which was your original claim.

fpawlak:

You for get that the founders of this nation did not want anything to do with the Government and religion get entangled in any way. In fact many of them had enough of that and more in England.

That is a misunderstanding of what the founders wanted. They didn’t want the government establishing a state religion or restricting religious beliefs/freedoms. As the quotes I provided established (and no, they are not all in dispute), the founding fathers were themselves religious and believed that God was integral to the success of our nation.

fpawlak:

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). Bellamy’s original Pledge read, “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be stated in 15 seconds. He had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity but decided they were too controversial since many people opposed equal rights for women and blacks. Bellamy said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue and that the United States supports the flag.

The Knights of Columbus in New York City felt that the pledge was incomplete without any reference to a deity. Appealing to the authority of Abraham Lincoln, the Knights felt that the words “under God” which were from Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address were most appropriate to add to the Pledge.

Yep…no dispute there. Bellamy wrote the pledge and the KofC improved it.

fpawlak:

So, The founders were against mixing any religion and the nation. The pledge was written as an expression of allegiance to our nation’s.flag.

Is there a point in what you are saying? Other than the non-factual statement that “the founders were against mixing any religion and the nation,” what does it have to do with allegiance to our flag (and our nation for which it stands…btw)?

fpawlak:

So where in any of this does Eisenhower play a role???

He was President of the United States of America, when the words “under God” were added to the pledge. Isn’t that what we were talking about? Sorry if history confuses you.

fpawlak:

Nowhere is the mention of a deity in the original works. In fact it was a religious organization (an organization that is part of a minor religion in this country) that provided the impetus for the under God portion of the pledge. Not the founding fathers nor the author of the pledge placed this nation under God.

Pax Christi
Frank

So? Who is disputing the history of the pledge? The KofC did provide the impetus (others joined in the effort, as well), and the Congress, which is elected by the people in our democratic republic, approved the change. The reason the Founding Fathers have been brought into the thread is to back up the fact that we were founded by religious people who believed that our very rights (you remember…the inalienable ones) are given to us by our Creator (aka God).

 

[fpawlak]

Oh! I get it. What you say is fact. What is say is nonsense. Even when I provide quotes taken from the sources. Yes historians do disagree when they are dealing with facts on certain issues. You point to web sites that don’t identify where they are getting their information. The wonderful thing about the Internet is that anyone can publish anything an present it as fact.

Indeed Eisenhower was the president of the country. Since when are politicians infallible??? I’ll foster a Wager that you swallow everything that Dubya has to say as fact.

Somewhere, someone told me never to argue with a bigot!!!

BTW Am I beginning to frustrate you?? You are starting to sound pretty hostile.

Pax Christi
Frank

 

[BarbG]

This is not exactly a reply to any of the comments but I couldn’t help wondering if any of you knew that the man who tried to have the words “under God” removed from the Pledge claims to be an atheist – if so, why would an atheist go to GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY – a JESUIT school??? He brought the suit on behalf of his daughter and didn’t even have custody of the girl.
If you’re not a Catholic, I don’t think you have to take Theology classes but I do believe you have to take a certain amount of units of Philosophy – guess I’ll have to check with my son again who teaches at a Jesuit university (but not Georgetown)!!!

 

[fpawlak]

No truck with you Barb, but am not surprised that an Atheist wanted the words removed from the pledge.

Not to disappoint you but most so called Catholic Universities have stopped being Catholic long ago. They no longer teach solid Catholicism. Somewhere I have a list of the truly Catholic Universities and they are relatively small schools.

Sad situation indeed.

 

[rlg94086]

Oh! I get it. What you say is fact. What is say is nonsense. Even when I provide quotes taken from the sources. Yes historians do disagree when they are dealing with facts on certain issues. You point to web sites that don’t identify where they are getting their information. The wonderful thing about the Internet is that anyone can publish anything an present it as fact.

Indeed Eisenhower was the president of the country. Since when are politicians infallible??? I’ll foster a Wager that you swallow everything that Dubya has to say as fact.

Somewhere, someone told me never to argue with a bigot!!!

BTW Am I beginning to frustrate you?? You are starting to sound pretty hostile.

Pax Christi
Frank

I’m not feeling hostile at all, Frank. However, your lack of a decent argument and your insults don’t really require any further response.

I do apologize for the history confusing you comment, but I hardly expected you to reply by calling me a bigot and “swallowing everything Dubya has to say.”

 

[fpawlak]

Robert,

I also apologize for calling you a bigot and accusing you of swallowing everything that Dudya says. That was grossly unfair of me.

As to the quality of my argument, I think that I did pretty well. Many sources were cited. I would not have so much of a problem with the words Under God if this nation was a far side different than it is morally.

Could we please put aside our differences, ans simply agree to disagree?

Warmest Regards,
Frank

 

[gmags2003]

I don’t have a problem with “under God” as all nations are under God.

The pledge of allegiance is what really wears me out. Years of rhetoric has been instilled within you and I with regard to saluting the flag. People start to become obsessed with freedom and say, anti-fascism. These people, known as patriots, pledge allegiance to the flag and thereby agree with what it states (freedom). If I don’t want to salute the flag on the grounds of being lazy or politically against it, these so called patriots freak out and say that I am offending those who in the service of defending us. The best one of all is “you can move somewhere else”. Thank you patriots for giving me myriad options! Freedom, huh?! Case closed.

Phony false flag patriotism really makes me irritated. God Bless America! What about “God Bless the World”? Should God be in the Pledge of Allegiance? Since I don’t buy into the pledge of allegiance, I probably couldn’t care less, as I worship God in church and through prayer, not through patriotism.

 

[Doyle_Mashern]

The Constitution is a very malleable document. It can be made say whatever someone with a political presupposition wants it to say.

The Supreme Court interpreting the Constitution is a bit like the large number of mutually-exclusive truths you get when everyone gets to use Sola Scriptura to come up with their hermeneutics.

It is impossible to answer whether or not “under God” should be there. It just depends on who is writing the opinion. I know the real answer but they never seem to ask me.

 

[ProVobis]

Why would God Favor the USA over other nations and people? The founders by and large were not Christians or in some cases nominally so. SO to argue that this nation was founded Christian is just not true.

Adding Under God to the pledge is a lesson in self righteousness that we Americans are famous for, and so hated by the rest of the world.

There’s something to your post. It’s interesting that we have the “God Bless America” sung at sporting events while the British have “God Save Our Queen” at theirs.

But if atheist have their way, both will be banned.

 

[rlg94086]

There’s something to your post. It’s interesting that we have the “God Bless America” sung at sporting events while the British have “God Save Our Queen” at theirs.

But if atheist have their way, both will be banned.

Okay…but technically, we don’t sing “God Bless America” at our sporting events…we sing the *Star Spangled Banner. *Although, it would be nice if we sung the last verse every once in a while :

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war’s desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav’n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust.”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

EDIT ADD…I just tried singing that verse out loud and my 9th grader joined in. I was shocked that she knew the words , but I guess they sang the whole thing last year in choir. Well, that public school better be shut down! How dare they mention God!

 

[ProVobis]

The majority of Founding Fathers were indeed Christian, and I would include Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson.

Weren’t the majority of the Founding Fathers Freemasons, which are positions that are totally against the Church, specifically against monarchies and the papacy? Maybe the history books call them Christians but we know better, don’t we?

 

[rlg94086]

Weren’t the majority of the Founding Fathers Freemasons, which are positions that are totally against the Church, specifically against monarchies and the papacy? Maybe the history books call them Christians but we know better, don’t we?

You seem a bit confused. Who said they were majority Catholic?

Most Freemasons that I have met are Christians. I don’t know if the majority of the Founding Fathers were Freemasons, but they were Christians - a couple were Catholic.

 

[fpawlak]

I know of two stadiums where God Bless America is sung at every game. This is honor those defending our country since the beginning of the Iraq War.

One is Fenway Park in Boston, Ma., the other is Yankee Stadium Bronx, NY.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

It took until 1954 to realize the country has a Christian foundation?

Personally I only learned about this scrap of information a couple of years ago - and I figure the founding fathers did a pretty good job setting things up that if they did not put it in maybe it should not really be there.

 

[rlg94086]

I know of two stadiums where God Bless America is sung at every game. This is honor those defending our country since the beginning of the Iraq War.

One is Fenway Park in Boston, Ma., the other is Yankee Stadium Bronx, NY.

Thanks Frank…I didn’t know that!

 

[rlg94086]

It took until 1954 to realize the country has a Christian foundation?

Personally I only learned about this scrap of information a couple of years ago - and I figure the founding fathers did a pretty good job setting things up that if they did not put it in maybe it should not really be there.

Well, since the founding fathers didn’t write the pledge (c. 1892), your point is moot. Maybe Bellamy got it wrong.

Come to think of it…less time passed between the writing of the pledge and the addition of “under God” than had passed from our country’s founding to the writing of the pledge.

 

[Gertabelle]

As I understand it, the Pledge was written so children could take place in part of the 1893 World Fair and Exposition in Chicago. Katharine Lee Bates visited that Exposition on her way to Colorado to teach summer courses at Colorado College in Colorado Springs. She and some of the other teachers made the trek to the top of Pike’s Peak that summer and Katharine wrote the poem “America, the Beautiful.” The fourth verse of that poem refers to alabaster cities, a reference to the buildings she saw at the Exposition.

Personally, I feel uncomfortable pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth, even a symbol of my country. Let my allegiance be to God’s perfect and holy will, rather than some human construct. Our whole school says the pledge together every morning, and it just makes me really uneasy each time.

Gertie

 

[fpawlak]

As I understand it, the Pledge was written so children could take place in part of the 1893 World Fair and Exposition in Chicago. Katharine Lee Bates visited that Exposition on her way to Colorado to teach summer courses at Colorado College in Colorado Springs. She and some of the other teachers made the trek to the top of Pike’s Peak that summer and Katharine wrote the poem “America, the Beautiful.” The fourth verse of that poem refers to alabaster cities, a reference to the buildings she saw at the Exposition.

Personally, I feel uncomfortable pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth, even a symbol of my country. Let my allegiance be to God’s perfect and holy will, rather than some human construct. Our whole school says the pledge together every morning, and it just makes me really uneasy each time.

Gertie

Here is an interesting little article on the history of the pledge.

history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm