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GerardPaul
Guest
Why don’t Protestants and othe non-catholic christian groups take John 6 out of the Bible they already don’t believe in the plain truth of Christs words.
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W
water
Guest
Non-Catholics and Catholic interpret Scriptures differently - this doesn’t mean one group has to remove it if its belief is different.
I pray that both will believe the same thing about John 6 someday.
I pray that both will believe the same thing about John 6 someday.
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believers
Guest
Could you please be more specific? Which verse or verses are you referring to?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
How about the ones in your signature? I get a chuckle every time I see that because you must be the only person who doesn’t understand the fallacy of your logic.
What I see is that you have mixed an obvious metaphor (John 4) with a literal passage (John 6:35+) to arrive at a false conclusion.
You’re obviously pretty proud of this, so I’d like to see it explained in greater depth from the Greek so that we can see it proven definitively?
Maybe you can begin by explaining how Jesus subsisted exclusively on doing the will of the Father instead of on ordinary food (or meat).
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believers
Guest
First you must understand Jesus’ ministry was for the Jews only. The Jews only needed to believe that Jesus was their Messiah, the Son of God. Just as Peter did in Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.How about the ones in your signature? I get a chuckle every time I see that because you must be the only person who doesn’t understand the fallacy of your logic.
What I see is that you have mixed an obvious metaphor (John 4) with a literal passage (John 6:35+) to arrive at a false conclusion.
You’re obviously pretty proud of this, so I’d like to see it explained in greater depth from the Greek so that we can see it proven definitively?
Maybe you can begin by explaining how Jesus subsisted exclusively on doing the will of the Father instead of on ordinary food (or meat).
Let’s start off with several verses in the Gospel of John. Notice that the message which is basically to believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
Jhn 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jhn 12:44
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Jhn 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Jhn 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
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believers
Guest
Now read these verses. It is the longer version of my signature. It is the same message that was mentioned throughout the Gospel of John. Believe and have everlasting life.
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Jhn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
REMEMBER, JESUS DEFINED MEAT HERE
Jhn 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Jhn 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Jhn 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Jhn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
REMEMBER, JESUS DEFINED MEAT HERE
Jhn 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Jhn 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Jhn 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
B
believers
Guest
Jhn 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
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Milliardo
Guest
Just as Luther wanted to take out Revelations, James, Jude, and some other New Testament books, but changed his mind because there was no precedent to do so? But some denominations or groups seem to have, at least in theory, taken out some New Testament books already, deeming them not applicable to Christians today.
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JimG
Guest
Perhaps, rather than trying to parse verse by verse, it might be better to read the entire 6th chapter of John’s gospel as the cohesive narrative that it is.
It begins with Jesus crossing the Sea of Galilee and preaching to the crowd who followed him. Then he fed the crowed with the multiplication of loaves of bread. The people, impressed, would have carried him off to make him king, but he hid himself from them and went off alone.
When evening came and Jesus had not shown up at the boat, the disciples got in and re-crossed the lake without him. But he approached them walking on the water.
The next day, on the other side of the lake, the crowd, seeing him, wondered how he got back across. It is at this time that he instigates the bread of life discourse, drawing the crowd into it repeatedly with his solemn statements that he would give them his flesh to eat.
Many are disgusted with his teaching, and go off rejecting him. He does not call them back. But the apostles remain. If he had worked such wonders on the previous day, how can they argue that he cannot do what he says?
It begins with Jesus crossing the Sea of Galilee and preaching to the crowd who followed him. Then he fed the crowed with the multiplication of loaves of bread. The people, impressed, would have carried him off to make him king, but he hid himself from them and went off alone.
When evening came and Jesus had not shown up at the boat, the disciples got in and re-crossed the lake without him. But he approached them walking on the water.
The next day, on the other side of the lake, the crowd, seeing him, wondered how he got back across. It is at this time that he instigates the bread of life discourse, drawing the crowd into it repeatedly with his solemn statements that he would give them his flesh to eat.
Many are disgusted with his teaching, and go off rejecting him. He does not call them back. But the apostles remain. If he had worked such wonders on the previous day, how can they argue that he cannot do what he says?
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Milliardo
Guest
Believer, you forget that if Jesus’ point is belief in Him; that is, if it’s only a symbol or some synonym for belief, then He would’ve clarified it with the Twelve. You stopped at verse 40, and didn’t go on to when the Jews were scandalized at His words. But not only the Jews; those with Him were also scandalized: “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” (verse 60). Note that at that point, they have already believed in Him; there’s simply no reason why they would find this hard to accept. Yet, what did He reply? “Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?” This is a strange response from Jesus if He’s merely talking about faith in Him. Stranger still was after 60 left Him, He turned to the Twelve and asked: “Do you also want to leave?” (verse 70). Like I said, at that point He could have told His Disciples what He meant–whenever He spoke in parables, He always make it a point to explain to His closest associates the meaning of them. But there was no explanation coming; He was willing to let them go for this. As Scott Hahn observed, Jesus is the truth, and He would have been morally obliged to explain His point to clarify things, as He is the truth. But He didn’t.
B
believers
Guest
Simon was the first to believe and confess He was the Christ. The others followed.
Mat 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:20
Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
The other disciples walked away because they did not believe but the 12 stayed.
Jhn 6:67
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Jhn 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go?** thou hast the words of eternal life.**
Jhn 6:69
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
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Milliardo
Guest
Yes, but that doesn’t mean those with Him don’t believe in Him, does it now?
That is not the point, nor could you say they did not believe, because they were already believers, or else it would be sheer folly to follow someone they did not believe in. The point clearly shown is that such a saying is hard for all His Disciples, including the Twelve. To further it, and not clarify it, Jesus is willing to let even them go. Peter’s words are rather telling:
What was Peter’s point here? He is, in effect, saying that he doesn’t understand what Jesus actually said, but there is no one else to go to anyway. It is notable here that Jesus still has not clarified His point–again, if this is merely a figurative narrative about believing in Him, He would clarify it with them. But He never did, and Peter and the others were left wondering what He said, at least until the time they were at the Upper Room and there showed them what He meant.
B
believers
Guest
What are you talking about? Simon and the rest of the 12 believed. There’s no one left. Who are you referring to when you say “those with Him don’t believe in Him”
You’re going to have to start quoting scripture to support your claims.
What was Peter’s point here? He is, in effect, saying that he doesn’t understand what Jesus actually said, but there is no one else to go to anyway. It is notable here that Jesus still has not clarified His point–again, if this is merely a figurative narrative about believing in Him, He would clarify it with them. But He never did, and Peter and the others were left wondering what He said, at least until the time they were at the Upper Room and there showed them what He meant.
Peter and the others BELIEVED that Jesus had the “words of eternal life.” They believed and were sure Jesus was the Son of God.
The other disciples walked away because they did not believe but the 12 stayed.
Jhn 6:67
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Jhn 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Jhn 6:69
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
M
Milliardo
Guest
I believe that your point is that the Twelve believed; the others did not before this, which is simply not true.
I already did, and explained them; you would have to come up with something better then.
Indeed, but the point of Jesus’ body and blood isn’t merely about belief, but He was referring to something physical.
Yes, we’ve already discussed that–is there any other insight you can add to this?
The point is simple–you are, in effect, trying to say that His meaning of body and blood is merely figurative for belief in Him, which could not be so, as He did not explain to the Twelve what it exactly was. He was going to let them go because of that, in fact. After Peter’s proclamation, He did not explain either. But if we look at what happened in the Upper Room, you can see what He is referring in John 6.
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hosemonkey
Guest
Jesus = Living Bread = Flesh (Jn 6:51)
Flesh = Meat (Jn 6:55)
Meat = Work of God (Jn 6:27, 4:34)
Work of God = Believe on Jesus (Jn 6:28-29)
Believe on Jesus = Have everlasting life (Jn 6:40)
Protestant mental gymnastics to refute the particular Catholic belief in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. They MUST refute this because otherwise other catholic beliefs must be accepted as well and there goes protestantism. They believe that the Bible is literally true EXCEPT this portion of the book of John (and others) which clash with other protestant beliefs.
Flesh = Meat (Jn 6:55)
Meat = Work of God (Jn 6:27, 4:34)
Work of God = Believe on Jesus (Jn 6:28-29)
Believe on Jesus = Have everlasting life (Jn 6:40)
Protestant mental gymnastics to refute the particular Catholic belief in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. They MUST refute this because otherwise other catholic beliefs must be accepted as well and there goes protestantism. They believe that the Bible is literally true EXCEPT this portion of the book of John (and others) which clash with other protestant beliefs.
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believers
Guest
Well… it’s getting late. I’ll just leave you with this.
Jhn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Jhn 20:31
But these are written,** that ye might BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that BELIEVING ye might have life through his name.**
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Atreyu
Guest
Look at this verse you quoted:
So, you either believe in the Real Presence, or you deny the Sacrifice of Christ.
Surprisingly, you didn’t bold the last bit of the verse. Jesus gave his literal flesh for the life of the world, right? And therefore the “bread that [Jesus] will give” must be the literal flesh of Jesus. Unless you do not believe that Jesus gave his literal flesh for the life of the world…?
So, you either believe in the Real Presence, or you deny the Sacrifice of Christ.
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Milliardo
Guest
Interesting that you should quote that, because this more than actually defends the Catholic position. But let us first see what Jesus means by this: Jesus here is merely saying that all that He said is true; note that this comes after verses 61-62, wherein He says if what He said is shocking. What is shocking? That Hos body and blood means faith or belief? For the Jews and His Disciples, that is not shocking, since allegories and such parallelisms are known to His listeners. But note that they were scandalized by the realism of what He said–that He is real food, and His blood is real drink. But we go a bit deeper, and like I said this actually reinforces Catholic belief when He said it is the Spirit that gives life. Why so? During Consecration, the host and wine become His body and blood. Is it the priest who does this? No–this is not magic. But what–or who–gives life? It is the Spirit. We go over to the Last Supper once again and see there where is that body and blood–He makes it known there, in the bread and wine. Paul would in fact say later that as long as we eat this bread, which is His body, and the wine which is His blood, we proclaim the death of Jesus for our salvation. Nowhere in both cases did Paul or Jesus equate it to merely mean believing Him.
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Angainor
Guest
Hey! Don’t you dare. John 6 is a wonderful description of the sacrament.
What is the Sacrament of the Altar?
It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, under the bread and wine, for us Christians to eat and to drink, instituted by Christ Himself.
Where is this written?
The holy Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul, write thus:
Our Lord Jesus Christ, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread: and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and gave it to His disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me.
After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Take, drink ye all of it. This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me.
What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?
That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.
How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?
It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does them, but the words which stand here, namely: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins. Which words are, beside the bodily eating and drinking, as the chief thing in the Sacrament; and he that believes these words has what they say and express, namely, the forgiveness of sins.
Who, then, receives such Sacrament worthily?
Fasting and bodily preparation is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins.
But he that does not believe these words, or doubts, is unworthy and unfit; for the words For you require altogether believing hearts.
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