Removing Doxology from the Mass

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ELDEN_S_WIFE

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My daughter attends a Catholic elementary school in South Carolina. Last week I was substituting and was present at their morning prayer service. The music teacher was beginning instruction on the new ending to the Lord’s Prayer that would take the place of the doxology.

I was confused since none of the new changes involve the Lord’s Prayer and the doxology is still included in the Order of the Mass. (Per the USCCB web pages.)

I have been trying to get a copy of the exact wording that is being used but apparently I’m getting the run around. I want to approach the Pastor about this but I want all the information possible before I do.

Has anyone heard of this and if it is true can they point me to the document that mandates this change?

When I asked the music teacher about it she said it was at Father’s request since the ending "For the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory… is Protestant and we should never have been saying it.

Curiously, no notice was sent home to the parents that our children were being taught this. If it is all above board then why no communication from Rome on one of the Oldest Prayers in Catholic History being changed?

I spoke with the Principal of the school and showed him the Catechism where it mentions the Doxology being a part of ancient liturgy, evidence of which is found in the Didache. He said he was not aware of this but that the information that I presented to him would indicate that the doxology should remain a part of the Mass. I told him if the Vatican says to remove it then we need to remove it, but this seems to be just the whim of a priest.

Any information would be appreciated.

Mary
Worried parent in Rock Hill, SC
 
My daughter attends a Catholic elementary school in South Carolina. Last week I was substituting and was present at their morning prayer service. The music teacher was beginning instruction on the new ending to the Lord’s Prayer that would take the place of the doxology.

I was confused since none of the new changes involve the Lord’s Prayer and the doxology is still included in the Order of the Mass. (Per the USCCB web pages.)

I have been trying to get a copy of the exact wording that is being used but apparently I’m getting the run around. I want to approach the Pastor about this but I want all the information possible before I do.

Has anyone heard of this and if it is true can they point me to the document that mandates this change?

When I asked the music teacher about it she said it was at Father’s request since the ending "For the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory… is Protestant and we should never have been saying it.

Curiously, no notice was sent home to the parents that our children were being taught this. If it is all above board then why no communication from Rome on one of the Oldest Prayers in Catholic History being changed?

I spoke with the Principal of the school and showed him the Catechism where it mentions the Doxology being a part of ancient liturgy, evidence of which is found in the Didache. He said he was not aware of this but that the information that I presented to him would indicate that the doxology should remain a part of the Mass. I told him if the Vatican says to remove it then we need to remove it, but this seems to be just the whim of a priest.

Any information would be appreciated.

Mary
Worried parent in Rock Hill, SC
 
My daughter attends a Catholic elementary school in South Carolina. Last week I was substituting and was present at their morning prayer service. The music teacher was beginning instruction on the new ending to the Lord’s Prayer that would take the place of the doxology.

I was confused since none of the new changes involve the Lord’s Prayer and the doxology is still included in the Order of the Mass. (Per the USCCB web pages.)

I have been trying to get a copy of the exact wording that is being used but apparently I’m getting the run around. I want to approach the Pastor about this but I want all the information possible before I do.

Has anyone heard of this and if it is true can they point me to the document that mandates this change?

When I asked the music teacher about it she said it was at Father’s request since the ending "For the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory… is Protestant and we should never have been saying it.

Curiously, no notice was sent home to the parents that our children were being taught this. If it is all above board then why no communication from Rome on one of the Oldest Prayers in Catholic History being changed?

I spoke with the Principal of the school and showed him the Catechism where it mentions the Doxology being a part of ancient liturgy, evidence of which is found in the Didache. He said he was not aware of this but that the information that I presented to him would indicate that the doxology should remain a part of the Mass. I told him if the Vatican says to remove it then we need to remove it, but this seems to be just the whim of a priest.

Any information would be appreciated.

Mary
Worried parent in Rock Hill, SC
 
If you don’t find conclusive answers from the many informed Catholics on this site then I would simply suggest approaching the Priest. They are there for these matters as well. Obviously you don’t need to hound him over it and be confrontational (which doesn’t seem like you’d do that in the first place) but I doubt very much he would take offense to you inquiring about something important like that. And in the event that he was wrong about something as potentially important as that wouldn’t you think he’d be grateful someone pulled him aside and asked him to look into it, as opposed to just letting it slide or waiting for someone else to point it out or ask about it? It’s easy to remember that Priests are just men sometimes, that despite their impressive educational feats acquired through seminary formation and years of experience (depending on the Priest) that they are not in fact all knowing. Even Priests need to look things up once in awhile because the Glory of God is just simply much too massive for any one person to just “know”. And the portion we DO know of God I would bet, is insignificant compared to the wholeness of God we will experience when He calls us home 😉 God Bless
 
BigFellaMick said:
If you don’t find conclusive answers from the many informed Catholics on this site then I would simply suggest approaching the Priest. … It’s easy to remember that Priests are just men sometimes, that despite their impressive educational feats acquired through seminary formation and years of experience (depending on the Priest) that they are not in fact all knowing…
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Thanks for responding. No I don’t want to hound the priest, I do want to approach him in all charity to correct an error, if it is one, before it goes too far. There have been too many abuses in the past 40 years since Vatican II and I am just trying to do my part in preventing new ones!

Keep me in your prayers as I have a tendency to get emotional and say things I regret later. I spent my hour at Adoration this past Thursday offering it up to God and asking for guidance from the Holy Spirit.

Mary
 
I read the ending of the Our Father you are speaking of was originally a Catholic phrase added to the end of the prayer. It fell out of Catholic use but was retained by the protestants. I can’t remember for sure, but it may have been on here.
 
I don’t know enough about the new translation to be able to fully answer your question, but I do wish to point out that the doxology at the end of the Our Father was not present in the Mass before 1970 and none of the pre-Vatican-2 prayerbooks or catechisms had it either.

So the argument that the doxology is not a traditional part of Catholic worship and prayer does make some sense. having said that, however, the priest needs to follow the Missal as it is written, not as he wishes it to be.
 
The doxology is the priest’s part of the Lord’s Prayer in the ancient Divine Liturgy we celebrate in Eastern Catholic Churches. The people’s part ends with “…and deliver us from evil” or “… and deliver us from the evil one.”.
 
The doxology is the priest’s part of the Lord’s Prayer in the ancient Divine Liturgy we celebrate in Eastern Catholic Churches. The people’s part ends with “…and deliver us from evil” or “… and deliver us from the evil one.”.
 
The doxology is not part of the Our Father. I think people think it is because they hold hands and don’t let go until after it is said.

After the Our Father is recited the priest says " Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ"

It is than that the doxology is said. Unless you believe that these words also are part of the Our Father, than the Doxology is not part of it. I don’t know if it was part of the early masses. I do know that it is a Catholic prayer. It is thought of as Protastant because of it being added on to the Our Father but its origin is Catholic. I understand that it was added to the margins of scripture as a private prayer by the Monks who were copying it. Not realizing that it wasn’t part of scripture the Protestants added it to the Our Father.
 
adrift said:
The doxology is not part of the Our Father. I think people think it is because they hold hands and don’t let go until after it is said.

After the Our Father is recited the priest says " Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ"

It is than that the doxology is said. Unless you believe that these words also are part of the Our Father, than the Doxology is not part of it. I don’t know if it was part of the early masses. I do know that it is a Catholic prayer. It is thought of as Protastant because of it being added on to the Our Father but its origin is Catholic. I understand that it was added to the margins of scripture as a private prayer by the Monks who were copying it. Not realizing that it wasn’t part of scripture the Protestants added it to the Our Father.
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I have heard that it is also part of the practice of the Orthodox. In any case, what is objectionable about the language?
 
RobbyS said:
I have heard that it is also part of the practice of the Orthodox.
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5Loaves said:
The doxology is the priest’s part of the Lord’s Prayer in the ancient Divine Liturgy we celebrate in Eastern Catholic Churches. The people’s part ends with “…and deliver us from evil” or “… and deliver us from the evil one.”.
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The Divine Liturgy we ECs celebrate is the same Liturgy as the Orthodox.

Outside of Divine Liturgy likewise the prayer ends “…and deliver us from evil/the evil one” during the Hours, where the priest will say the Doxology, or in the case of something like morning prayers said in the absence of a priest it ends with “…and deliver us from evil/the evil one.” This is the same for Orthodox and for ECs.
 
ELDEN_S_WIFE said:
My daughter attends a Catholic elementary school in South Carolina. Last week I was substituting and was present at their morning prayer service. The music teacher was beginning instruction on the new ending to the Lord’s Prayer that would take the place of the doxology.

I was confused since none of the new changes involve the Lord’s Prayer and the doxology is still included in the Order of the Mass. (Per the USCCB web pages.)

I have been trying to get a copy of the exact wording that is being used but apparently I’m getting the run around. I want to approach the Pastor about this but I want all the information possible before I do.

Has anyone heard of this and if it is true can they point me to the document that mandates this change?

When I asked the music teacher about it she said it was at Father’s request since the ending "For the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory… is Protestant and we should never have been saying it.

Curiously, no notice was sent home to the parents that our children were being taught this. If it is all above board then why no communication from Rome on one of the Oldest Prayers in Catholic History being changed?

I spoke with the Principal of the school and showed him the Catechism where it mentions the Doxology being a part of ancient liturgy, evidence of which is found in the Didache. He said he was not aware of this but that the information that I presented to him would indicate that the doxology should remain a part of the Mass. I told him if the Vatican says to remove it then we need to remove it, but this seems to be just the whim of a priest.

Any information would be appreciated.

Mary
Worried parent in Rock Hill, SC
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From the 2010 GIRM, there is no option to skip or change the doxology:

"The Lord’s Prayer
  1. In the Lord’s Prayer a petition is made for daily bread, which for Christians means principally the Eucharistic Bread, and entreating also purification from sin, so that what is holy may in truth be given to the holy. The Priest pronounces the invitation to the prayer, and all the faithful say the prayer with him; then the Priest alone adds the embolism, which the people conclude by means of the doxology. The embolism, developing the last petition of the Lord’s Prayer itself, asks for deliverance from the power of evil for the whole community of the faithful.
The invitation, the Prayer itself, the embolism, and the doxology by which the people conclude these things are sung or are said aloud."

After the Lord’s Prayer is the Embolism and Doxology, as mentioned by adrift. The new translation is:

Celebrant: Deliver us, Lord, we pray, from every evil, graciously grant peace in our days, that, by the help of your mercy, we may be always free from sin and safe from all distress, as we await the blessed hope and the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

People: For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours now and for ever.

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/roman-missal/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-2.cfm
 
ELDEN_S_WIFE said:
My daughter attends a Catholic elementary school in South Carolina. Last week I was substituting and was present at their morning prayer service. The music teacher was beginning instruction on the new ending to the Lord’s Prayer that would take the place of the doxology.

I was confused since none of the new changes involve the Lord’s Prayer and the doxology is still included in the Order of the Mass. (Per the USCCB web pages.)

I have been trying to get a copy of the exact wording that is being used but apparently I’m getting the run around. I want to approach the Pastor about this but I want all the information possible before I do.

Has anyone heard of this and if it is true can they point me to the document that mandates this change?

When I asked the music teacher about it she said it was at Father’s request since the ending "For the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory… is Protestant and we should never have been saying it.

Curiously, no notice was sent home to the parents that our children were being taught this. If it is all above board then why no communication from Rome on one of the Oldest Prayers in Catholic History being changed?

I spoke with the Principal of the school and showed him the Catechism where it mentions the Doxology being a part of ancient liturgy, evidence of which is found in the Didache. He said he was not aware of this but that the information that I presented to him would indicate that the doxology should remain a part of the Mass. I told him if the Vatican says to remove it then we need to remove it, but this seems to be just the whim of a priest.

Any information would be appreciated.

Mary
Worried parent in Rock Hill, SC
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Talk to the priest.

I’m concerned because you say that you haven’t talked to the priest yet, and you haven’t actually seen the wording, but you conclude by saying that this is being done at the whim of the priest.

With the corrected Mass translation being implemented, I have noticed MANY times people thinking that “one thing” is being changed, when in reality “something else” is what is actually changing. I even had one of my own parishioners think that the entire consecration was being eliminated from the Mass. When the person finally got around to talking to priest (ie me) about it, it turned out that because the new pew cards don’t have the consecration printed (no need to print it) that meant it wasn’t going to be in the “new” Mass. Far from it.

This could be a simple misunderstanding starting with the fact that the priest’s words before and after the Our Father are being modified. One thing leads to another and by the time the information gets to you, it’s completely different.

Talk to the priest and get it from him just exactly what is changing or being eliminated. After you talk to him, take it from there.
 
According to the new translation of the Missal found on the USCCB website the Doxology is still to be said be the people after the Our Father.

If the Priest is not going to have it said then he is not following the Missal and this would need tobe taken to his Bishop.

Although it is not part of the prayer it goes back to the Jewish custom of adding standard doxolgies after prayers. This practise carried over into the church and as someone else stayed it was a monk doing a copy that frist wrote this one on the margin of a manuscript that later copyist added into to text.

Never the less if they are follwing the Missal for the N.O. then it has to be said, however if he is going to be useing the 1962 Missal of the EFand celebrating It in Latin then it would not be said.
 
RobbyS said:
I have heard that it is also part of the practice of the Orthodox. In any case, what is objectionable about the language?
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Nothing. It is a beautiful prayer. Has someone said it was objectionable?
 
FrDavid96 said:
Talk to the priest.
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Please do speak to your priest. The music teacher and the principal may be explaining things poorly, or may be confused themselves.There will likely be a lot of that as we get closer to Advent and the changes take place. Your best source is the priest. If you substitute teach regularly it is important for you to have the correct information to pass on to your students.
 
FrDavid96 said:
Talk to the priest.

I’m concerned because you say that you haven’t talked to the priest yet, and you haven’t actually seen the wording, but you conclude by saying that this is being done at the whim of the priest.

With the corrected Mass translation being implemented, I have noticed MANY times people thinking that “one thing” is being changed, when in reality “something else” is what is actually changing. I even had one of my own parishioners think that the entire consecration was being eliminated from the Mass. When the person finally got around to talking to priest (ie me) about it, it turned out that because the new pew cards don’t have the consecration printed (no need to print it) that meant it wasn’t going to be in the “new” Mass. Far from it.

This could be a simple misunderstanding starting with the fact that the priest’s words before and after the Our Father are being modified. One thing leads to another and by the time the information gets to you, it’s completely different.

Talk to the priest and get it from him just exactly what is changing or being eliminated. After you talk to him, take it from there.
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Thanks for your advice and your service,

My wording was poorly done (that’s what I get for staying up so late and composing a new thread!). I didn’t meaning that this was indeed at the whim of the priest. I was trying to let the Principal know that I was ok with the change if it was from the Vatican and there was official documentation for the change, but I was not if it were just because a priest thought it needed to be removed.

And this is not just me hearing it wrong. I was present at the prayer service at the Catholic school where they were teaching the children (280+) the new ending of the Lord’s Prayer. The music teacher sang the ending, the priest’s new wording and then the “new” response that would be replacing the current doxology.

At 50 my memory is not good enough to remember what she sang, however, being 50 I have heard the correct words enough to know that this was not the ending to the Lord’s Prayer. By the time she got to the new response I could not think straight enough to even tell you what she said, other than it was not "For the Kingdom, and the Power…etc.

And no I have not gone to the priest yet because I thought it would be a simple matter for me to go to the music teacher to get the words she used so I could check if I was just hearing wrong or if these were the correct changes. I owed the priest at least that much, to do my homework before bothering him if it was a misunderstanding on my part.

I couldn’t get the music teacher to give me the words even after emailing her and speaking to her in person. I decided to speak to the principal since he is the next person in the “chain of command” and he said he would speak with the teacher and get the words for me. Two days later he finally tells me that per Father, we are supposed to remove the doxology from the Mass, but again, no words.

I started to feel like I was being brushed off and that this was being treated like no big deal. That is why I checked Jimmy Akin’s book “Mass Revision” and why I went on the USCCB web page and checked the New Order of the Mass (old.usccb.org/romanmissal/order-of-mass.pdf) and finally why I came to Catholic Answers to “Ask an Apologist” whether this was supposed to be changed. I am still waiting for their answer. I know they are busy and it may be a while, if ever, that they answer my question so I came here.

I am trying to have all my “ducks in a row” before I speak with Father.

I appreciate all help. Thank you,

Mary
(sorry I have always been wordy…I’m working on it…still being wordy…darn.)
 
ELDEN_S_WIFE said:
My daughter attends a Catholic elementary school in South Carolina. Last week I was substituting and was present at their morning prayer service. The music teacher was beginning instruction on the new ending to the Lord’s Prayer that would take the place of the doxology.

I was confused since none of the new changes involve the Lord’s Prayer and the doxology is still included in the Order of the Mass. (Per the USCCB web pages.)
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you would have to ask the teacher, there is no change in the new translation of the Roman Missal that affects the people’s response or the priest’s prayer after the Our Father.
 
ELDEN_S_WIFE said:
…
Two days later he finally tells me that per Father, we are supposed to remove the doxology from the Mass, but again, no words.
…
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Keep the heat on by asking questions, if you are willing to take any flak that comes. The priest must be able to give a reason for such a change, one that he would be willing to repeat to his bishop that he represents, and the bishop that has that ability to make some liturgical changes (and I believe this is not one because it is not in the current GIRM).

CIC Canon 527
§2 The parish priest is to take care that the blessed Eucharist is the centre of the parish assembly of the faithful. He is to strive to ensure that the faithful are nourished by the devout celebration of the sacraments, and in particular that they frequently approach the sacraments of the blessed Eucharist and penance. He is to strive to lead them to prayer, including prayer in their families, and to take a live and active part in the sacred liturgy. Under the authority of the diocesan Bishop, the parish priest must direct this liturgy in his own parish, and he is bound to be on guard against abuses.

CIC Canon 838
§1 The ordering and guidance of the sacred liturgy depends solely upon the authority of the Church, namely, that of the Apostolic See and, as provided by law, that of the diocesan Bishop.
§2 It is the prerogative of the Apostolic See to regulate the sacred liturgy of the universal Church, to publish liturgical books and review their vernacular translations, and to be watchful that liturgical regulations are everywhere faithfully observed.
§3 It pertains to Episcopal Conferences to prepare vernacular translations of liturgical books, with appropriate adaptations as allowed by the books themselves and, with the prior review of the Holy See, to publish these translations.
§4 Within the limits of his competence, it belongs to the diocesan Bishop to lay down for the Church entrusted to his care, liturgical regulations which are binding on all.

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P1T.HTM#116
 
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