Rene Descartes: Mind-Body Dualism

  • Thread starter Thread starter MindOverMatter
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

MindOverMatter

Guest
Why has the Catholic Church, and philosophers in general, rejected Mind-Body Dualism?

It seems obvious me that the Mind is of a different Nature to the Body.
 
Why has the Catholic Church, and philosophers in general, rejected Mind-Body Dualism?

It seems obvious me that the Mind is of a different Nature to the Body.
I wouldn’t say that the Church has rejected mind-body dualism. The church holds that we have a spirit and that we have flesh and that is what makes us man.

Concerning the philosophers there are many out there that have different views and in fact the mind-body problem is still one of the most contested subjects in philosophy.
 
I wouldn’t say that the Church has rejected mind-body dualism. The church holds that we have a spirit and that we have flesh and that is what makes us man.

Concerning the philosophers there are many out there that have different views and in fact the mind-body problem is still one of the most contested subjects in philosophy.
Dualism is a heresy.
 
Dualism is a heresy.
Here is a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2516 **Because man is a composite being, spirit and body, **there already exists a certain tension in him; a certain struggle of tendencies between “spirit” and “flesh” develops. But in fact this struggle belongs to the heritage of sin. It is a consequence of sin and at the same time a confirmation of it. It is part of the daily experience of the spiritual battle:

For the Apostle it is not a matter of despising and condemning the body which with the spiritual soul constitutes man’s nature and personal subjectivity. Rather, he is concerned with the morally good or bad works, or better, the permanent dispositions - virtues and vices - which are the fruit of submission (in the first case) or of resistance (in the second case) to the saving action of the Holy Spirit. For this reason the Apostle writes: “If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”

I think you are referring to some form of bitheism (2 equally opposite Gods) which is a heresy, but mind-body dualism is not.
 
Here is a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2516 **Because man is a composite being, spirit and body, **there already exists a certain tension in him; a certain struggle of tendencies between “spirit” and “flesh” develops. But in fact this struggle belongs to the heritage of sin. It is a consequence of sin and at the same time a confirmation of it. It is part of the daily experience of the spiritual battle:

For the Apostle it is not a matter of despising and condemning the body which with the spiritual soul constitutes man’s nature and personal subjectivity. Rather, he is concerned with the morally good or bad works, or better, the permanent dispositions - virtues and vices - which are the fruit of submission (in the first case) or of resistance (in the second case) to the saving action of the Holy Spirit. For this reason the Apostle writes: “If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”

I think you are referring to some form of bitheism (2 equally opposite Gods) which is a heresy, but mind-body dualism is not.
It is true that there is another dualism that is a heresy.

I am referring to the dualism that claims the body exists before the soul. As you quoted in the Catechism this is not so, they are composite, and created together.
 
It seems obvious me that the Mind is of a different Nature to the Body.
It is true that the mental / non-corporeal is quite different from the physical / corporeal. However, both are aspects of the same substance, the human person. It is that substance that is human, not the mental or physical alone.
 
An interesting topic, indeed. If you think about it, you can identify three aspects: body, mind, and consciousness. Our bodies and minds differ but consciousness is what we have in most in common. Put in another light, we can control our bodies and minds voluntarily, but we can’t voluntarily control consciousness.
 
Concerning the philosophers and scientist the main reason why they reject substance dualism or “mind-body” dualism is that they are looking for a physical explanation for the mind. The problem is they haven’t truly found one that explains away every mental phenomena.
 
Why has the Catholic Church, and philosophers in general, rejected Mind-Body Dualism?

It seems obvious me that the Mind is of a different Nature to the Body.
First of all, why does it seem obvious? You haven’t given an argument. The fact that it seems obvious to you is not an argument.

In the second place, there are various versions of mind-body dualism other than that of Descartes. Descartes’ version is a particularly radical one and has in my opinion been extremely pernicious. The Thomistic view, following Aristotle, is that the soul is the form of the body. Unlike classical Aristotelianism, Thomism holds that the soul does persist after the death of the body, but only because the body has individualized the soul–and a soul without a body is not a whole person. This is different from straight mind-body dualism, which in my opinion is theologically, philosophically, and scientifically untenable.

Edwin
 
This is different from straight mind-body dualism, which in my opinion is theologically, philosophically, and scientifically untenable.

Edwin
Hey Edwin,

I agree with your evaluation of Cartesian dualism and your preference of the Thomistic view that the soul is the form of the body.

My question is: does the Thomistic position rely on a teleological understanding of physics (e.g. that of Aristotle)?

It seems that if physics is mechanistic then we are left with either Cartesian dualism, where the a gap in the mechanistic working of the brain must be allowed for in order for the soul to exercise its free will, or else some brand of materialism or epiphenomenalism with no room for human freedom.

Sharp11
 
The reason many philosophers do not favor dualism is because of the lack of elegance it affords.

It seems much more beautiful to state that there is just one thing, one substance, or one reality.

If you are going to say that there are two, why not three (like with consciousness)? Why not many?
 
Hey Edwin,

I agree with your evaluation of Cartesian dualism and your preference of the Thomistic view that the soul is the form of the body.

My question is: does the Thomistic position rely on a teleological understanding of physics (e.g. that of Aristotle)?

It seems that if physics is mechanistic then we are left with either Cartesian dualism, where the a gap in the mechanistic working of the brain must be allowed for in order for the soul to exercise its free will, or else some brand of materialism or epiphenomenalism with no room for human freedom.

Sharp11
I think this is a really good question, and I’m not sure I know enough science or philosophy to answer it well. On the other hand, we sort of get into it in the systematic theology class I teach, because our textbook rejects the idea that God’s continual action is necessary to keep the universe from falling into nothingness (on the ground that this doesn’t square with modern physics), and today in our discussion of St. Athanasius’ *On the Incarnation *a student raised this same issue (since this is a key premise of that particular work).

Here’s my view, for what it’s worth: I don’t think Aristotelian physics and modern, mechanistic physics are incompatible, because they answer different sorts of questions. I think it’s quite possible to say that reality is teleological, but that modern science is concerned with aspects of reality than can be studied empirically and manipulated in particular ways, and so naturally doesn’t discover teleology. I’m resting in part on Kuhn’s *Structure of Scientific Revolutions *here. Paradigms are defined by the questions they find relevant and interesting. The modern paradigm excludes teleology on principle in order to achieve certain kinds of understanding. I don’t think it has thereby refuted teleology. (And I am certainly strongly invested in the Athanasian view that without God creation would fall back into nothingness.)

But I may be talking through my hat.

Edwin
 
Paradigms are defined by the questions they find relevant and interesting. The modern paradigm excludes teleology on principle in order to achieve certain kinds of understanding. I don’t think it has thereby refuted teleology.
Yes, that’s a good point. But if mechanistic physics can fully explain, say, the growth of a human fetus in the womb, then hasn’t it rendered the teleological view that the soul is the organizing principle of the body an unnecessary addition to an already self-sufficient model? Sure, it might not have directly destroyed a teleological understanding of physics, but is leaving it for Occam’s Razor to deal with really that different?

And yet if mechanistic physics cannot explain the growth of a human fetus in the womb, or the decision-making process in the brain, then wouldn’t we expect it to have run into a wall, so to speak, by now? Shouldn’t scientists have encountered observable events inexplicable by mechanistic models alone? I’m not a neuroscientist, but I haven’t heard of any such thing happening.

Food for thought…

Sharp11
 
Yes, that’s a good point. But if mechanistic physics can fully explain, say, the growth of a human fetus in the womb, then hasn’t it rendered the teleological view that the soul is the organizing principle of the body an unnecessary addition to an already self-sufficient model? Sure, it might not have directly destroyed a teleological understanding of physics, but is leaving it for Occam’s Razor to deal with really that different?

And yet if mechanistic physics cannot explain the growth of a human fetus in the womb, or the decision-making process in the brain, then wouldn’t we expect it to have run into a wall, so to speak, by now? Shouldn’t scientists have encountered observable events inexplicable by mechanistic models alone? I’m not a neuroscientist, but I haven’t heard of any such thing happening.

Food for thought…

Sharp11
I apoligise for this long post, but it is neccesary to my point. I am a writer, so i often fall into the habit of writing novels on issues that i am passionate about. I hope that you will have the patience to read it untill the much welcomed end.

My Mind, In The Eyes Of Science

This is the thing which angers me the most. It is the short sighted idea that just because a quality emerges from a natural process, then that ought to mean that the natural process involved is the ultimate cause of any given quality. Physics certainly explains the means by which qualities unfold; but it doesn’t explain to me why those qualities come into being in the first place. Why should an eye or a central nervous system arise according to any given pattern or structure in nature? I can certainly imagine a universe in which the same processes, patterns and structures, give rise to a completely different set of qualities. What is it that defines the nature of things to such an extent that there is a continuous order in natural events, and that certain qualities are assigned to various emergent structures?
The universe began to exist, so there can be no evolution of qualities before the bigbang. So, when i see a rich expression of quality and order within the universe including “mind”, i can’t help but be overwelmed by a sense of purpose regardless of the natural processes through which these factors emerge. I certainly think that it would be pretty naive and arrogant of me to think that our Universe is the only kind of nature that exists. There seems to be a transcendent reality beyound the bounds of our own.

The problem with science today, is that we have been plagued with reductionism philosophies for far too long; to such extent that we assume from the out-set that “quality” is synonymous with structure. That’s not to say that all apparent qualities are not synonymous with structure. Some qualities are shallow in nature, such as “geometric shapes”; but consciousness and abstract language, is not to be confused with this type of quality; the difference being, is that one of them is measurable and therefore applicable to empirical logic, and the other is not. For example, the numbers 110110 might explain and expose the process and the means by how we get a specific quality, a picture of my face, on our computer screen, but it would be silly, or at least mistaken, to think that the numbers are synonymous in nature to the picture which have just appeared on your screen. They have different dimensions of being to eachother. Although they are clearly complimentary to eachother in respect of function, they evdently have to different natures. The numbers are merely markers which allow pre-determined qualities to arise in an organized and coherent manner according to logic; rather then being arbitrary. The brain is a logic machine which grounds human consciousness in space-time and converts signals in such a way as to allow us a logical coherent view of physical reality.

Another interesting thing is the reality of ideas. The idea that my ideas are fundamentally caused by a grouping of atoms, set in a specific pattern or structure, is an insufficient explanation of the true nature behind ideas; an idea is evidently different to the nature of an atom or a physical object in space-time. You can clearly measure brains states which represent human consciousness, because the states themselves are physical; but you cannot empirically measure or see “consciousness” “perception” or “ideas”, because they have no measurable or quantifiable dimensions, and therefore any attempt to do so with the tools of science, is ultimately “unscientific”. The physical process explains only that there is various things which need to occur “physically” before I am allowed to perceive reality consciously.

Science is limited to measurable quantities, and therefore can only give us a shallow description of what reality is. There are many questions will never be answered by science such as why a mother loves her child and why objects in space-time have dreams and aspirations for the future and philosophies. Some people are starting to wake up to this fact and are now looking for answers in philosophy again, rather then just science. Some people however are still trapped in their stubbornness.
 
Pope John Paul II in his book i think put into perspective some of these
questions." Descartes, who split thought from existence and identified
existence with reason itself: ( I think therefore i am )
How different from the approach of St Thomas, for whom it is not thought which
determines existence, but existence “esse” which determines thought! I think
the way i think because i am that which i am…" excerpt from ‘Crossing the Threshold
of Hope’

My personal views;
This makes sense to me that my being is not ascribed to me by a function of my
intellectual capacity, for then we divide ourselves where some are more beings than
others. It is interesting how in science some feel the need to continually ‘reinvent the
wheel’ maybe it is a case of thinking too much. Is it not enough to say ‘I am, because of God?’
 
Why has the Catholic Church, and philosophers in general, rejected Mind-Body Dualism?

It seems obvious me that the Mind is of a different Nature to the Body.
Where did you get the idea that the Catholic Church has rejected dualism?

Also, your phrase “philosophers in general” can include a lot of different philosophical schools not related to Catholicism. The condition of modern philosophy is rather disordered, especially due to the prevalence of philosophical materialism. However, the philosophia perennis is alive and well.

Any theory or doctrine of the mind-body relationship that holds mind to be spiritual and the body to be physical is type of dualism. In philosophy there are different theories of dualism. Plato and Descartes held to an extreme dualism. Thomas Aquinas taught a moderate dualism in which the spiritual soul is the form and principle of life of the body. In general, the Church and Catholic philosophers hold to the Thomistic explanation as the best answer to the mind-body problem.
 
I think this is a really good question, and I’m not sure I know enough science or philosophy to answer it well. On the other hand, we sort of get into it in the systematic theology class I teach, because our textbook rejects the idea that God’s continual action is necessary to keep the universe from falling into nothingness (on the ground that this doesn’t square with modern physics), and today in our discussion of St. Athanasius’ *On the Incarnation *a student raised this same issue (since this is a key premise of that particular work).
Contrary to your textbook, physics is irrelevant to the question of the existence of contingent being. The natural sciences do not deal, and are not competent to deal with that aspect of being. Physics treats of matter and motion, the quantifiable aspects of phenomenal reality. It has nothing to say about meta-physical reality or the metaphysical constituents of being such as act and potency, essence and existence, which are what is relevant to the question of the continued existence of the cosmos.

All contingent being, that is, the entire universe, is held in existence at every moment by God. You can look at it as the act of Creation itself, which was not a once and for all act in the beginning of time, but a continuous act. By way of analogy, compare the music coming from a flute. The music exists only a long as the musician plays. When he stops playing the music stops. Likewise, if God were to cease holding the cosmos in existence, it would completely disappear from existence. Game over!

I would say your theology text is badly flawed.

St. Paul has some words to the effect that say that it is in Him that we move and have our being. The universe is in God as much as God is in the universe, and that fact is relevant to understanding how the universe cannot exist independently of God’s creative and sustaining act.
 
It is true that there is another dualism that is a heresy.

I am referring to the dualism that claims the body exists before the soul. As you quoted in the Catechism this is not so, they are composite, and created together.
Any theory that says the body exists before the soul would be false because it is the soul which is the organizing principle and life of the body. There can be no living body without the soul.

Death occurs when the soul departs the body. What is left behind is not truly the body any longer, but a mass of flesh and bones that begins to decay.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top