Renewing religious life

[Melchior_1]

Maybe I should ask this as a separate thread…but I’m here, so here it goes: Can anyone point me to resources explaing religious orders, their similarity, uniqueness, etc. I know nothing about the distinctions, or even the basics. But I found this thread very interesting. Thanks, and God Bless!

Moto

We have had some good discussions on these boards, actually. this is one of my personal favorites.

Brother JR, Marauder, Batfink, and a few others have given some of us some spiritual direction when it comes to our discernment on secular orders.

Our friend Jason had questions about the Benedictines, which resulted in this conversation.

As always, Brother JR gives a tremendously great rundown on the Franciscan and Dominicans.

There’s a sizable group of us who are either in formation or discerning formation with secular orders. There’s also a couple of consecrated religious who post here as well.

 

[JReducation]

Maybe I should ask this as a separate thread…but I’m here, so here it goes: Can anyone point me to resources explaing religious orders, their similarity, uniqueness, etc. I know nothing about the distinctions, or even the basics. But I found this thread very interesting. Thanks, and God Bless!

Moto

shc.edu/theolibrary/orders.htm

Have fun.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

My question is about the East-West schism of 1054.

The Benedictine Order had largely developed before this event, so how evident is a more holistic spirituality in the Benedictine charism? In what ways does it have an effect?

I know in contemporary times, there has been a lot of interest in Eastern mysticism–prayer types and all that. It can be hard for me to tell this from what might have been there before.

And after the schism how long did it take for the West’s practices to diverge “on the ground?” Specifically liturgical and mystical practices? Was there a big push or did it just gradually happen? *

It seems to me that some of the practices I’m seeing in those traditions might be generally useful to anyone wanting to pray…aka…a more intentional preparation for prayer, the Jesus Prayer, and things like that.

Also what some authors call the “mystical anthropology” might be useful. St. Teresa of Avila talks about this, but it generally takes specialists like Fr. Marie-Eugene to pull it out and make it accessible to non-specialists in mystical theology. I think it might be understood in a much more commonplace way in the Eastern Tradition. This sounds sort of arcane, but it can be a huge help to realizing why we need to pray, what it is to pray, and that God is present and never really leaves.

Maybe I should read Bonaventure. He talks about this too, doesn’t he, Br. JR?*

 

[JReducation]

My question is about the East-West schism of 1054.

The Benedictine Order had largely developed before this event, so how evident is a more holistic spirituality in the Benedictine charism? In what ways does it have an effect?

I know in contemporary times, there has been a lot of interest in Eastern mysticism–prayer types and all that. It can be hard for me to tell this from what might have been there before.

And after the schism how long did it take for the West’s practices to diverge “on the ground?” Specifically liturgical and mystical practices? Was there a big push or did it just gradually happen?

It seems to me that some of the practices I’m seeing in those traditions might be generally useful to anyone wanting to pray…aka…a more intentional preparation for prayer, the Jesus Prayer, and things like that.

Also what some authors call the “mystical anthropology” might be useful. St. Teresa of Avila talks about this, but it generally takes specialists like Fr. Marie-Eugene to pull it out and make it accessible to non-specialists in mystical theology. I think it might be understood in a much more commonplace way in the Eastern Tradition. This sounds sort of arcane, but it can be a huge help to realizing why we need to pray, what it is to pray, and that God is present and never really leaves.

First of all, one has to remember that by the time of the Great Schism, monastic life was very well developed in both East and West. St. Basil had covered the East and St. Benedict the West. Neither side had to surrender anything or start over. Both sides lost in the sense that both can certainly enrich each other and communication between the two was interrupted for centuries.

We certainly do have Eastern monasticism in the Catholic Church. There are many Estern Catholic monks, nuns and monasteries. Their material is out there to be read. It’s that the average Roman Catholic does not visit their websites or their books stores.

Just Google any of the Eastern Catholic Churches and you’ll be surprised at how much Eastern mysticism is available within Catholicism.

Fraternally,

Br JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

First of all, one has to remember that by the time of the Great Schism, monastic life was very well developed in both East and West. St. Basil had covered the East and St. Benedict the West. Neither side had to surrender anything or start over. Both sides lost in the sense that both can certainly enrich each other and communication between the two was interrupted for centuries.

We certainly do have Eastern monasticism in the Catholic Church. There are many Estern Catholic monks, nuns and monasteries. Their material is out there to be read. It’s that the average Roman Catholic does not visit their websites or their books stores.

Just Google any of the Eastern Catholic Churches and you’ll be surprised at how much Eastern mysticism is available within Catholicism.

Fraternally,

Br JR, FFV

Yes, I read some of this when I first became Christian a long time ago, Anthony Bloom and so on. I still have those books but I haven’t gone through them in a long while. I like this. I like icons too.

So there were substantially formed East & West traditions before the Schism? Without intensive and active borrowing, I mean.

I know that we also have 21 rites or something like that, and some of them are Eastern in nature–like the Byzantine rite. Latin is just the biggest one. Although most Latins think they have the only Catholic rite in union with Rome, they don’t. And each one of those has a sub-cultural or community aspect that most Latins aren’t aware of. I’ve worked with Lithuanian and Byzantine rite Catholics, even in this rural area.

 

[JReducation]

Yes, I read some of this when I first became Christian a long time ago, Anthony Bloom and so on. I still have those books but I haven’t gone through them in a long while. I like this. I like icons too.

So there were substantially formed East & West traditions before the Schism? Without intensive and active borrowing, I mean.

I know that we also have 21 rites or something like that, and some of them are Eastern in nature–like the Byzantine rite. Latin is just the biggest one. Although most Latins think they have the only Catholic rite in union with Rome, they don’t. And each one of those has a sub-cultural or community aspect that most Latins aren’t aware of. I’ve worked with Lithuanian and Byzantine rite Catholics, even in this rural area.

We have 23 churches that together make up the one Catholic Church. The Latin Church is the biggest of them all and has the primacy, because it’s Peter’s Church. Normally, other Catholics refer to members of the Latin Church as Roman Catholics, for obvious reasons.

In the Latin Church there are five rites. The other 22 Eastern Churches share at least another five rites.

Unlike the Latin Church, which spread through the world as Europe expanded its colonial outreach, the Eastern Catholic Churches did not move too far from their homelands, since they were in countries that were not colonizers as were the European.

However, successive ward and oppression crept up on the nations of the East, forcing many Eastern Catholics and Easter Orthodox to have to flee to Eastern Europe to former European colonies, such as the USA. That’s how they come to be among us, albeit in smaller numbers.

This also explains how they have managed to preserve their liturgical purity. Their liturgical form is very rooted in their ethnic culture, which is not the same in the Latin Church. The people of the Congo or the Amazon have nothing in common with Europeans, most do not speak European languages. To them, the Roman Mass is very foreign and contains elements and symbols that are foreign.

Religious orders have had to adapt in these situations in order to accommodate the vocations from these countries. Those adaptations included changes in the liturgy and the LOTH long before the reforms of Vatican II, changes in the religious habit, Latin was dropped as the official language of the order in those countries and the local languages were adopted. For many of these religious, Latin presented an unreasonable task. It was not necessary in order to enter a religious community and it was extremely difficult when a different alphabet or phonetic system was involved. For example, when St. Maximilian Kolbe arrived in Japan as the Franciscan superior in the early 1930s, he stopped the use of Latin and he dispensed with the use of the Franciscan habit, because both were very European. It was his argument that the Blessed Mother did not want him to bring European Catholicism to Japan, but to bring Japan to Catholicism. This meant bringing in Japanese language and culture.

We have older pictures of friars in Japanese clothing, all dressed the same, because it was a habit. There are older missals in Japanese. Gradually, as Japan opened to the West and the friars gained their trust, many of the Latin Catholic customs from the west came to be accepted by the Japanese Catholics, including dress and Latin. That took years.

In the case of the Eastern Catholics, they’re already Catholic. There is no need for them to borrow from the West. They’er very self-contained in that regard. Whereas Western or Roman Catholics borrow from each other, because we’re not self-contained.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

We have 23 churches that together make up the one Catholic Church. The Latin Church is the biggest of them all and has the primacy, because it’s Peter’s Church. Normally, other Catholics refer to members of the Latin Church as Roman Catholics, for obvious reasons.

In the Latin Church there are five rites. The other 22 Eastern Churches share at least another five rites.

Unlike the Latin Church, which spread through the world as Europe expanded its colonial outreach, the Eastern Catholic Churches did not move too far from their homelands, since they were in countries that were not colonizers as were the European.

However, successive ward and oppression crept up on the nations of the East, forcing many Eastern Catholics and Easter Orthodox to have to flee to Eastern Europe to former European colonies, such as the USA. That’s how they come to be among us, albeit in smaller numbers.

This also explains how they have managed to preserve their liturgical purity. Their liturgical form is very rooted in their ethnic culture, which is not the same in the Latin Church. The people of the Congo or the Amazon have nothing in common with Europeans, most do not speak European languages. To them, the Roman Mass is very foreign and contains elements and symbols that are foreign.

Religious orders have had to adapt in these situations in order to accommodate the vocations from these countries. Those adaptations included changes in the liturgy and the LOTH long before the reforms of Vatican II, changes in the religious habit, Latin was dropped as the official language of the order in those countries and the local languages were adopted. For many of these religious, Latin presented an unreasonable task. It was not necessary in order to enter a religious community and it was extremely difficult when a different alphabet or phonetic system was involved. For example, when St. Maximilian Kolbe arrived in Japan as the Franciscan superior in the early 1930s, he stopped the use of Latin and he dispensed with the use of the Franciscan habit, because both were very European. It was his argument that the Blessed Mother did not want him to bring European Catholicism to Japan, but to bring Japan to Catholicism. This meant bringing in Japanese language and culture.

We have older pictures of friars in Japanese clothing, all dressed the same, because it was a habit. There are older missals in Japanese. Gradually, as Japan opened to the West and the friars gained their trust, many of the Latin Catholic customs from the west came to be accepted by the Japanese Catholics, including dress and Latin. That took years.

In the case of the Eastern Catholics, they’re already Catholic. There is no need for them to borrow from the West. They’er very self-contained in that regard. Whereas Western or Roman Catholics borrow from each other, because we’re not self-contained.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

I know about the liturgical differences. I’ve attended the Divine Liturgy a number of times in the Byzantine Church, the one in union with Rome. It’s very beautiful. Much longer and the music is very good, not trendy and they take it seriously. Around here, Catholicism is Latin Rite for about 50-60 miles all the way, so I don’t attend the Divine Liturgy when I’m at home. Besides I am Latin Rite, having converted and been received there.

However, some of the prayer practices of the East are very helpful to me. Did St. Bonaventure write much about “spiritual anthropology,” meaning did he write about the way human beings are constructed to pray and relate to God, in any way, something that might correspond to the kinds of things you see in eastern books on how to pray?

 

[OraLabora]

We have 23 churches that together make up the one Catholic Church. The Latin Church is the biggest of them all and has the primacy, because it’s Peter’s Church. Normally, other Catholics refer to members of the Latin Church as Roman Catholics, for obvious reasons.

In the Latin Church there are five rites. The other 22 Eastern Churches share at least another five rites.

Unlike the Latin Church, which spread through the world as Europe expanded its colonial outreach, the Eastern Catholic Churches did not move too far from their homelands, since they were in countries that were not colonizers as were the European.

However, successive ward and oppression crept up on the nations of the East, forcing many Eastern Catholics and Easter Orthodox to have to flee to Eastern Europe to former European colonies, such as the USA. That’s how they come to be among us, albeit in smaller numbers.

This also explains how they have managed to preserve their liturgical purity. Their liturgical form is very rooted in their ethnic culture, which is not the same in the Latin Church. The people of the Congo or the Amazon have nothing in common with Europeans, most do not speak European languages. To them, the Roman Mass is very foreign and contains elements and symbols that are foreign.

Religious orders have had to adapt in these situations in order to accommodate the vocations from these countries. Those adaptations included changes in the liturgy and the LOTH long before the reforms of Vatican II, changes in the religious habit, Latin was dropped as the official language of the order in those countries and the local languages were adopted. For many of these religious, Latin presented an unreasonable task. It was not necessary in order to enter a religious community and it was extremely difficult when a different alphabet or phonetic system was involved. For example, when St. Maximilian Kolbe arrived in Japan as the Franciscan superior in the early 1930s, he stopped the use of Latin and he dispensed with the use of the Franciscan habit, because both were very European. It was his argument that the Blessed Mother did not want him to bring European Catholicism to Japan, but to bring Japan to Catholicism. This meant bringing in Japanese language and culture.

We have older pictures of friars in Japanese clothing, all dressed the same, because it was a habit. There are older missals in Japanese. Gradually, as Japan opened to the West and the friars gained their trust, many of the Latin Catholic customs from the west came to be accepted by the Japanese Catholics, including dress and Latin. That took years.

In the case of the Eastern Catholics, they’re already Catholic. There is no need for them to borrow from the West. They’er very self-contained in that regard. Whereas Western or Roman Catholics borrow from each other, because we’re not self-contained.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

This needs to be repeated many times over in this forum. We read all too often that Latin should remain the norm for the Roman Church. Yes it should be kept, and even given pride of place, but it should not be forced on cultures for which it imposes an inordinate obstacle. We should be a Universal Church, not a colonizing Church.

 

[iloveangels]

This needs to be repeated many times over in this forum. We read all too often that Latin should remain the norm for the Roman Church. Yes it should be kept, and even given pride of place, but it should not be forced on cultures for which it imposes an inordinate obstacle. We should be a Universal Church, not a colonizing Church.

OraLabora,

Hi! Maybe, but that’s not my point here. I was just looking for a better understanding in terms of information and background on styles of prayer, perhaps from a variety of sources.

 

[JReducation]

I know about the liturgical differences. I’ve attended the Divine Liturgy a number of times in the Byzantine Church, the one in union with Rome. It’s very beautiful. Much longer and the music is very good, not trendy and they take it seriously. Around here, Catholicism is Latin Rite for about 50-60 miles all the way, so I don’t attend the Divine Liturgy when I’m at home. Besides I am Latin Rite, having converted and been received there.

However, some of the prayer practices of the East are very helpful to me. Did St. Bonaventure write much about “spiritual anthropology,” meaning did he write about the way human beings are constructed to pray and relate to God, in any way, something that might correspond to the kinds of things you see in eastern books on how to pray?

You can begin here Journey of the Mind Into God

Bonaventure’s approach to the subject of prayer is rather interesting. For him, everything begins with Francis. Everything that he writes on the spiritual life comes from his medications on the life of Francis.

From Francis we learn the nature of God, the nature of man, how to enter into communion with God and man, how to live in communion with the Church, how to read the scriptures and how to use them in daily life, how the scriptures come alive in the Christian. There is no need for any other teacher than Francis As Francis is the mirror of perfection, one need not go far to see Christ. We can see Christ through Francis and we can learn to live in Christ by observing Francis.

He spent the last 16 years of his life meditating on Francis, writing on Francis and preaching on Francis . Every single sermon of the last year of his life was about Francis and the life of faith.

Bonaventure made such good use of Francis that when he became bishop, every priest in his diocese had to study Francis, more than just biographical facts about him, but his entire journey into God. Every priest had to look at Christ through the eyes of Francis and preach it that way to the faithful. If not, you were out of his diocese. He pulled no punches on this. When he became Cardinal, he influenced the Roman Curia, to this day, to make a lot of use of Francis and Franciscan spirituality. It comes through in many little bits at the curia.

Just an example, when Francis composed the first set of stations of the cross, his wording was guided by Augustine. This past Good Friday, the Holy Father insisted that Aquinas not be used as the resource for the Stations of the Cross. Instead, he asked a team of Augustinian sisters to compose them. Our Holy Father is very connected to Bonaventure and Augustine. Studying his life, I think that his passion for Augustine is awakened by Bonaventure. He studied Bonaventure first and received a theology degree on him, then went on for his doctorate on Augustine.

It certainly cured me of stereotypical thinking. I never imagined a German theologian passionate about the approach that Augustine and Bonaventure take to theology, since Aquinas is cold hard logic and the other two begin with the heart. I used to think that a German theologian would prefer the cold hard logical approach. Goes to show ya’ that stereotypes don’t work.

This needs to be repeated many times over in this forum. We read all too often that Latin should remain the norm for the Roman Church. Yes it should be kept, and even given pride of place, but it should not be forced on cultures for which it imposes an inordinate obstacle. We should be a Universal Church, not a colonizing Church.

This had been an uphill battle that Franciscans, Dominicans and Jesuits have been fighting with the Church for hundreds of years. To be honest, the battle has not been with the Holy See. It has always been with individuals, especially the Spanish and the Portuguese. Many of those who led exploration and conquests were ruthless in their attempt to Latinize the world. These three orders never had problems standing up to them in defense of the indigenous people and their cultures.

Many have claimed that Asia, India and much of the Amazon is not Christian because of the intervention of the Franciscans, Dominicans and Jesuits. My answer to such allegations is that God works on his timetable not mine.

OraLabora,

Hi! Maybe, but that’s not my point here. I was just looking for a better understanding in terms of information and background on styles of prayer, perhaps from a variety of sources.

I don’t think this was meant for you. I think it was an urbi et orbi statement.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

You can begin here Journey of the Mind Into God

Bonaventure’s approach to the subject of prayer is rather interesting. For him, everything begins with Francis. Everything that he writes on the spiritual life comes from his medications on the life of Francis.

From Francis we learn the nature of God, the nature of man, how to enter into communion with God and man, how to live in communion with the Church, how to read the scriptures and how to use them in daily life, how the scriptures come alive in the Christian. There is no need for any other teacher than Francis As Francis is the mirror of perfection, one need not go far to see Christ. We can see Christ through Francis and we can learn to live in Christ by observing Francis.

He spent the last 16 years of his life meditating on Francis, writing on Francis and preaching on Francis . Every single sermon of the last year of his life was about Francis and the life of faith.

Bonaventure made such good use of Francis that when he became bishop, every priest in his diocese had to study Francis, more than just biographical facts about him, but his entire journey into God. Every priest had to look at Christ through the eyes of Francis and preach it that way to the faithful. If not, you were out of his diocese. He pulled no punches on this. When he became Cardinal, he influenced the Roman Curia, to this day, to make a lot of use of Francis and Franciscan spirituality. It comes through in many little bits at the curia.

Just an example, when Francis composed the first set of stations of the cross, his wording was guided by Augustine. This past Good Friday, the Holy Father insisted that Aquinas not be used as the resource for the Stations of the Cross. Instead, he asked a team of Augustinian sisters to compose them. Our Holy Father is very connected to Bonaventure and Augustine. Studying his life, I think that his passion for Augustine is awakened by Bonaventure. He studied Bonaventure first and received a theology degree on him, then went on for his doctorate on Augustine.

It certainly cured me of stereotypical thinking. I never imagined a German theologian passionate about the approach that Augustine and Bonaventure take to theology, since Aquinas is cold hard logic and the other two begin with the heart. I used to think that a German theologian would prefer the cold hard logical approach. Goes to show ya’ that stereotypes don’t work.

This had been an uphill battle that Franciscans, Dominicans and Jesuits have been fighting with the Church for hundreds of years. To be honest, the battle has not been with the Holy See. It has always been with individuals, especially the Spanish and the Portuguese. Many of those who led exploration and conquests were ruthless in their attempt to Latinize the world. These three orders never had problems standing up to them in defense of the indigenous people and their cultures.

Many have claimed that Asia, India and much of the Amazon is not Christian because of the intervention of the Franciscans, Dominicans and Jesuits. My answer to such allegations is that God works on his timetable not mine.

Thank you. Excellent information as usual.

But. The obvious question emerges: If all this is available, why is it not more accessible to those who are looking for it? I mean that I think this would be completely new to most Secular Franciscans.

I don’t think this was meant for you. I think it was an urbi et orbi statement.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Yeah, sorry.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you. Excellent information as usual.

But. The obvious question emerges: If all this is available, why is it not more accessible to those who are looking for it? I mean that I think this would be completely new to most Secular Franciscans.

My experience of Secular Franciscans tells me that the one dimension of Franciscan tradition that they have failed to promote among themselves and to contribute to as well, has been the academic dimension.

If I had $1.00 for every Secular Franciscan who tells me about how simple and carefree a Franciscan should be, I could solve world hunger. This is just a lame excuse for saying that they don’t have to study and don’t have to teach.

The friars have been involved in academics since Francis was alive. All of this stuff is out there. One just has to want to find it. But the OFS has never encouraged its people to do so and much less to contribute to the deposit of Franciscan Intellectualism. It’s a shame. the Franciscans have more doctors of the Church than any other order, because we have been involved in the field of theology in larger numbers for 800 years. Even the Dominicans and Jesuits have less doctors of theology. They also have less STDs than we do.

The big difference between the OPs, SJs and Franciscans is that the former use their STDs to teach and preach. We don’t do as much preaching and teaching as they do. We do more hands on type of work or no work at all, if possible.

But there is a great deal of Franciscan writing out there by the great doctors of the Franciscan family and the lesser known Franciscans as well. The writings of St. Clare and St. Agnes of Prague are deeply mystical.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

My experience of Secular Franciscans tells me that the one dimension of Franciscan tradition that they have failed to promote among themselves and to contribute to as well, has been the academic dimension.

If I had $1.00 for every Secular Franciscan who tells me about how simple and carefree a Franciscan should be, I could solve world hunger. This is just a lame excuse for saying that they don’t have to study and don’t have to teach.

I know. Big problem. Lots of aspects. Much resistance too. Spiritual aspects, aka prayer, as an important part of belonging de-emphasized in my local area. And real study too.

The friars have been involved in academics since Francis was alive. All of this stuff is out there. One just has to want to find it. But the OFS has never encouraged its people to do so and much less to contribute to the deposit of Franciscan Intellectualism. It’s a shame. the Franciscans have more doctors of the Church than any other order, because we have been involved in the field of theology in larger numbers for 800 years. Even the Dominicans and Jesuits have less doctors of theology. They also have less STDs than we do.

Yes, the early history of the order is full of this. Lists and lists of OFM teachers in Paris early in the order. users.bart.nl/~roestb/franciscan/index.htm

The big difference between the OPs, SJs and Franciscans is that the former use their STDs to teach and preach. We don’t do as much preaching and teaching as they do. We do more hands on type of work or no work at all, if possible.

Right because of differences in charisms. We have things they don’t and vice versa. And for the Franciscan family, we have slight differences for the 4 different groups (first-minority; second-poverty; third-penance, both regular & secular).

But there is a great deal of Franciscan writing out there by the great doctors of the Franciscan family and the lesser known Franciscans as well. The writings of St. Clare and St. Agnes of Prague are deeply mystical.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Thank you, Br. JR.

 

[iloveangels]

My experience of Secular Franciscans tells me that the one dimension of Franciscan tradition that they have failed to promote among themselves and to contribute to as well, has been the academic dimension.

If I had $1.00 for every Secular Franciscan who tells me about how simple and carefree a Franciscan should be, I could solve world hunger. This is just a lame excuse for saying that they don’t have to study and don’t have to teach.

I really don’t know if Secular Franciscans are picking up the pace in other countries. I know that there are a lot of new professions and the average age is younger elsewhere, say Africa & Asia. I don’t even know if scholarly activity is one of the metrics they’re even looking at. I doubt it.

 

[OraLabora]

Yeah, sorry.

Indeed the statement wasn’t directed at you, it was meant in a general way. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

 

[iloveangels]

Indeed the statement wasn’t directed at you, it was meant in a general way. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

No worries, OraLabora. Have a great weekend!

 

[MotoCatholic]

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. Sorry for my delayed respones. I’ve been “out of the loop” for a bit. I’ll dig-in over the weekend.

Moto