Repent? Favor? Reward?

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Why is it that Lord would have you repent? Why does the Lord favor the pennant? And what is the evidence of that favor? And what is the reward?

It is not a sin to bow before Christ, but where is Christ that He may be bowed before?
 
Why is it that Lord would have you repent? Why does the Lord favor the pennant? And what is the evidence of that favor? And what is the reward?

It is not a sin to bow before Christ, but where is Christ that He may be bowed before?
Because repentance shows love, humility, and reconciliation. We know we have wronged God, and out of our love for Him, we wish to ‘make things right’. But as humans, we don’t have the ability to heal that relationship on our own accord - God gives us His grace so that we might reconcile to Him.

The Lord favors the penitent because those are the ‘Prodigal Sons’ - the ones who have decided to forsake the world, beg for forgiveness, and are welcomed back with love and a celebration feast. Those who do not repent condemn themselves to eternity in Hell. Though God wills no man to go to Hell, His love is so unconditional that if we choose to separate ourselves from Him permanently by not repenting, He created a place where man could be separated from God for all eternity. The reward for repentance is salvation - gaining entrance into total union with God in Heaven, where the feast is always ongoing.

Christ is really and truly present in the Eucharist. Whether in the tabernacle, transsubstantiated in Mass, or displayed at Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, it is truly the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ present in the form of bread and wine. With the words of consecration, these ordinary items become something extraordinary - not merely symbols of God, but the Lord Himself. That is why Catholics bow when entering/leaving the Church and genuflect entering/exiting pews and crossing the altar.

Furthermore, one can show reverence to Christ by bowing one’s head before the image of true, unconditional, life-giving love - Christ upon the Cross.
 
Being unrepentant is a sign of pride, of an unloving behavior.
How can one forgive another when they are staunchly unrepentant?

Repent, St. John the Baptist called us. Repentance was what drew David closer to the Lord, and the Lord blessed him. Repentance is what draws all of us closer to the Lord. It is in the repentance and our response in our penance that is one of the ingredients of healing, I believe.

For myself, particularly, it was my continuing to confess the sin of smoking that gave me the grace to completely quit. I had quit eight times before, but never really succeeded. Finally, in humility, I gave up, surrendered, and repented. And three years later, I still praise God for his gift of grace, the greatest help ever to avoid them.

That’s just from my heart.
 
Why is it that Lord would have you repent? Why does the Lord favor the pennant? And what is the evidence of that favor? And what is the reward?
From what I understand, it takes two to forgive. One to do the forgiving, and one to do what is necessary for the forgiver to forgive. Repentance is what is necessary to be forgiven. As Jesus said:

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

In other words, if someone wants your forgiveness, they should repent. If you want someone to forgive you, you should repent. But you don’t have to try to repent once, and then give up if you fail. You keep trying, and keep repenting, and the forgiver keeps forgiving. It’s a process, rather than a one-time event. The Lord would have us keep forgiving those who keep trying, and have us keep trying so that others might keep forgiving us. That’s how we forgive others, and (it seems to me) that’s how the Lord forgives us. That’s why we should repent–so that we are able to forgive one another.
It is not a sin to bow before Christ, but where is Christ that He may be bowed before?
Bowing down before the Lord is something we might literally do one day when we see Him face-to-face. Bowing down before him now is something we figuratively can do every day. When people say we bow before the Lord, what they are doing is using the word bow as a figure of speech for worshiping and obeying. To bow down is to worship (through prayer, the Sacraments, etc.) and obey (by doing what the Lord and the Church reveals to you that you should do).

Hope that answers your questions, but let me know if you have follow-up questions.

🙂
 
Because repentance shows love, humility, and reconciliation. We know we have wronged God, and out of our love for Him, we wish to ‘make things right’. But as humans, we don’t have the ability to heal that relationship on our own accord - God gives us His grace so that we might reconcile to Him.

The Lord favors the penitent because those are the ‘Prodigal Sons’ - the ones who have decided to forsake the world, beg for forgiveness, and are welcomed back with love and a celebration feast. Those who do not repent condemn themselves to eternity in Hell. Though God wills no man to go to Hell, His love is so unconditional that if we choose to separate ourselves from Him permanently by not repenting, He created a place where man could be separated from God for all eternity. The reward for repentance is salvation - gaining entrance into total union with God in Heaven, where the feast is always ongoing.

Christ is really and truly present in the Eucharist. Whether in the tabernacle, transsubstantiated in Mass, or displayed at Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, it is truly the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ present in the form of bread and wine. With the words of consecration, these ordinary items become something extraordinary - not merely symbols of God, but the Lord Himself. That is why Catholics bow when entering/leaving the Church and genuflect entering/exiting pews and crossing the altar.

Furthermore, one can show reverence to Christ by bowing one’s head before the image of true, unconditional, life-giving love - Christ upon the Cross.
Mumbles

thanks for the reply

Though your response is about as Catholic as it gets, even old school. Which is what is to be expected. And I thank you for that, but could it be said, that if one’s eyes are on Christ, then one sees what he ought to be, considering that Jesus Christ is the satisfaction of the Father in the Son of man? In whom the Father is well pleased.

And how could one please the Father? Unless it be through the Son. If you Love what Jesus is, then you love Jesus. If you love Jesus, who is the Son that is of the Father, then you love the Father. If your eyes are not on Christ Jesus, then how can you know and learn what to love? If one sees what he ought to be, and loves it, then he repents from what he is, in order to be that which he sees and loves. For if he seeks and loves to please the Father, this is what he will do in the Hope “expectation” of receiving the ability that is of Christ to please the Father. For as Jesus has said, we can’t do anything without Him.

Receiving Christ, the Bread of Life, and the Cup of His Life and Blessing, then we are able to please the Father through what Jesus Christ is. Therefore, we can, as Jesus can, in what is of Jesus in us. It pleases the Father in the Son to give us, the ability to please the Father as does the Son. This would have to be in the Holy Spirit. There is no other Way. If the Presence of God is with you then He is pleased, where ever you go, and in what ever you do. If God is not pleased then His Presence would not be with you . And without that which is of God, you can not please God. And in living and doing in the Presence of God is your reward, for it is our Great Reward to be in His Presence according to His Peace given, and His good will towards men. Meaning that it in the doing of what you now can, in His Presence, that is our Great Reward. Which would have to be, the Father’s work.
 
Being unrepentant is a sign of pride, of an unloving behavior.
How can one forgive another when they are staunchly unrepentant?

That’s just from my heart.
marlap2

thanks for the reply

If you notice at the Cross, the only one recorded to ask for that which is of Christ, was the thief. No one else asked for mercy and or forgiveness, no one else sot Him for anything. And Jesus’ response to that was: Lk:23:34: Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Other then crimes committed, the offended is usually the one with the pride, that his pride is offended, but yet pride is an offence in the Kingdom of God. His pride requiring an apology from the other. Pride in what one’s self is, by choice or otherwise, is easily offended. But the only One who has right to boast of who He is, and what He has done, is Jesus Christ. Yet what did He do on the Cross?

One, pride requires an apology, two pride will not apologize, because it is right. Hence both are of the same heart, which Jesus has shown, this not of God. That which is of God our Lord Jesus Christ is that all is forgiven. I do believe that Peter was instructed to forgive seven times seventy. Teaching that it is all forgiven anyways, so what is it that could be held onto by the offended, but his pride?

It would seem that as Jesus has shown us, that requiring repentance, should you be offended, is unloving behavior. And Jesus on the Cross has already forgiven what has offended God the Father.
 
From what I understand, it takes two to forgive. One to do the forgiving, and one to do what is necessary for the forgiver to forgive. Repentance is what is necessary to be forgiven. As Jesus said:

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

In other words, if someone wants your forgiveness, they should repent. If you want someone to forgive you, you should repent. But you don’t have to try to repent once, and then give up if you fail. You keep trying, and keep repenting, and the forgiver keeps forgiving. It’s a process, rather than a one-time event. The Lord would have us keep forgiving those who keep trying, and have us keep trying so that others might keep forgiving us. That’s how we forgive others, and (it seems to me) that’s how the Lord forgives us. That’s why we should repent–so that we are able to forgive one another.

Bowing down before the Lord is something we might literally do one day when we see Him face-to-face. Bowing down before him now is something we figuratively can do every day. When people say we bow before the Lord, what they are doing is using the word bow as a figure of speech for worshiping and obeying. To bow down is to worship (through prayer, the Sacraments, etc.) and obey (by doing what the Lord and the Church reveals to you that you should do).

Hope that answers your questions, but let me know if you have follow-up questions.

🙂
spockrates
thanks for the reply

Note the part of your quote that is missing “Take heed to yourselves”.

Lk:17:3: Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4: And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Notice that nowhere in this quote does Jesus say, that if your brother doesn’t repent, don’t forgiven him. Nor does He say that not forgiving him, if he don’t repent is justified. Does He?

Moses did not require a apology from the Children of Israel, while Moses sot Mercy and Grace for them in the Lord God’s Presence.

Seeing that Jesus is talking about one’s brother, and since Jesus is doing the talking here, then He must mean thy Brother in Christ. Then why should one seek condemnation of thy Brother in Christ, because his Brother has offended him?

If the Presence of the Lord God is with you, then you must have bowed already.
 
spockrates
thanks for the reply

Note the part of your quote that is missing “Take heed to yourselves”.

Lk:17:3: Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4: And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Notice that nowhere in this quote does Jesus say, that if your brother doesn’t repent, don’t forgiven him. Nor does He say that not forgiving him, if he don’t repent is justified. Does He?

Moses did not require a apology from the Children of Israel, while Moses sot Mercy and Grace for them in the Lord God’s Presence.

Seeing that Jesus is talking about one’s brother, and since Jesus is doing the talking here, then He must mean thy Brother in Christ. Then why should one seek condemnation of thy Brother in Christ, because his Brother has offended him?

If the Presence of the Lord God is with you, then you must have bowed already.
DPM:

Good questions, those! Sorry for not responding till now. While it is true that He does not say to not forgive a person who does not repent, it is also true He does not say to forgive a person who does not repent!

😛

I’d say we cannot know for certain (from these words alone) either way. That being said, I wonder why He’d say, “If he repents…” at all. Don’t you wonder the same? I mean, why mention repenting if we are to forgive even those who don’t repent?
 
Why is it that Lord would have you repent? Why does the Lord favor the pennant? And what is the evidence of that favor? And what is the reward?
Excellent questions!
Why repent?
If the mind does not take time to thoroughly consider its wrongful actions and thoughts and all the consequences following wrongful actions and thoughts, it has no opportunity for learning better practices.

Why favor the penitent?
Because the one who seeks to understand is teachable.

What is the evidence of that favor?
The Word becomes clearer, more understandable, and more applicable in life.

What is the reward?
Greater Peace (including Health) and Happiness from day-to-day.
 
DPM:

Good questions, those! Sorry for not responding till now. While it is true that He does not say to not forgive a person who does not repent, it is also true He does not say to forgive a person who does not repent!

😛

I’d say we cannot know for certain (from these words alone) either way. That being said, I wonder why He’d say, “If he repents…” at all. Don’t you wonder the same? I mean, why mention repenting if we are to forgive even those who don’t repent?
spockrates
thanks for the reply

Let me ask you this then. Would it be a sin, or displeasing to the Lord, to not forgive, if some ask it of you? Isn’t the Gospel about God’s forgiveness? If you don’t forgive then what? Again what does the Lord Jesus say at the beginning of what He is saying here, “Take heed to yourselves”. Isn’t the Lord’s prayer”forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”? Then isn’t this of the same? In other words, is what your saying the minimum requirement, to not displease the Lord?
 
Excellent questions!
Why repent?
If the mind does not take time to thoroughly consider its wrongful actions and thoughts and all the consequences following wrongful actions and thoughts, it has no opportunity for learning better practices.

Why favor the penitent?
Because the one who seeks to understand is teachable.

What is the evidence of that favor?
The Word becomes clearer, more understandable, and more applicable in life.

What is the reward?
Greater Peace (including Health) and Happiness from day-to-day.
jochoa

thanks for the reply

Though you response is true, but in general it is true in any pursuit of what one wants. (Though yes you do refer to “the Word”, in other words I am not excluding what I believe is your intent in referring unto our Lord)

If I may seek deeper in this; what seems can be misconstrued, is one is right about what one wants. But does that make what one’s want right? We know that the Lord God is right about what He wants, and what He wants is Right for all creation, and is always right. Considering that all creation is God’s Domain, does man have domain? Or is man given dominion in God’s Domain? Therefore what God wants is the number one priority in His Domain. Hence “why repent?”. Because of what we want, or because of what God wants in His Domain?
 
jochoa

thanks for the reply

Though you response is true, but in general it is true in any pursuit of what one wants. (Though yes you do refer to “the Word”, in other words I am not excluding what I believe is your intent in referring unto our Lord)

If I may seek deeper in this; what seems can be misconstrued, is one is right about what one wants. But does that make what one’s want right? We know that the Lord God is right about what He wants, and what He wants is Right for all creation, and is always right. Considering that all creation is God’s Domain, does man have domain? Or is man given dominion in God’s Domain? Therefore what God wants is the number one priority in His Domain. Hence “why repent?”. Because of what we want, or because of what God wants in His Domain?
I appreciate that you recognize my intentions of referring unto our Lord, and I will attempt to correct the lack of definition.
First, I would like to consider the “in general” quality of the philosophy. If we can find a philosophy of a particular aspect of life, that can be applied to everybody in any circumstance, we will have found the Law of God pertaining to the aspect. Once we understand this philosophy it will be very easy to plagiarize, however it is very important to credit God’s Word. For example, the Law of Gravity is applicable to all objects in all circumstances, thus we have found God’s Law of Gravity.
Second, I would like to clarify my initial answer: “Why Repent?”
If the mind does not thoroughly consider its wrongful thoughts and actions based on the consequences following the actions and thoughts from all perspectives*, it has no opportunity for learning better practices.
*Perspectives of authority, all beings affected, and the self.

Or to phrase my answer positively:
If the mind thoroughly considers its wrongful thoughts and actions based on the consequences from all perspectives*, it gains opportunity for learning better practices.

Or from the All-Inclusive Understanding of God’s Law, it could be paraphrased as:
The mind should thoroughly consider and understand how it is sinful in thought and action, according to Jesus’ Greatest Commandment, and seek to perfect Unconditional Love towards God and all others.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and considerations!
 
I appreciate that you recognize my intentions of referring unto our Lord, and I will attempt to correct the lack of definition.
First, I would like to consider the “in general” quality of the philosophy. If we can find a philosophy of a particular aspect of life, that can be applied to everybody in any circumstance, we will have found the Law of God pertaining to the aspect. Once we understand this philosophy it will be very easy to plagiarize, however it is very important to credit God’s Word. For example, the Law of Gravity is applicable to all objects in all circumstances, thus we have found God’s Law of Gravity.
Second, I would like to clarify my initial answer: “Why Repent?”
If the mind does not thoroughly consider its wrongful thoughts and actions based on the consequences following the actions and thoughts from all perspectives*, it has no opportunity for learning better practices.
*Perspectives of authority, all beings affected, and the self.

Or to phrase my answer positively:
If the mind thoroughly considers its wrongful thoughts and actions based on the consequences from all perspectives*, it gains opportunity for learning better practices.

Or from the All-Inclusive Understanding of God’s Law, it could be paraphrased as:
The mind should thoroughly consider and understand how it is sinful in thought and action, according to Jesus’ Greatest Commandment, and seek to perfect Unconditional Love towards God and all others.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and considerations!
jochoa
thanks very much for your reply

Well my friend in Christ as I understand how it works. The smart mind seeks its own correction within itself, but the smart man seeks correction in and of the Lord. Of which I am sure you would agree, and the point I was trying to make is, it is not of the mind that there is revelation in which the Lord God would have you repent from, it is the revelation of His Word in His Presence (Holy Spirit). Hence if I remember correctly, even Moses explained that what he was instructed to tell Aaron and or the Children of Israel was not of his own mind. So I believe we must be careful in what is to be expressed in this. For the correction that is of the Lord our God is to bring into the world the Life and Blessings of the eternal Life. If one doesn’t repent as the Lord reveals to him, that it may be replaced with that which is of the Lord, and in what the Lord our God wants, in order to participate in the Father’s work, then how can he be of any use to the Lord.

But yes, Love of God for God through Jesus Christ, trumps all, every time my friend, may it be well with you and your’s. God Bless.
 
jochoa
thanks very much for your reply

Well my friend in Christ as I understand how it works. The smart mind seeks its own correction within itself, but the smart man seeks correction in and of the Lord. Of which I am sure you would agree, and the point I was trying to make is, it is not of the mind that there is revelation in which the Lord God would have you repent from, it is the revelation of His Word in His Presence (Holy Spirit). Hence if I remember correctly, even Moses explained that what he was instructed to tell Aaron and or the Children of Israel was not of his own mind. So I believe we must be careful in what is to be expressed in this. For the correction that is of the Lord our God is to bring into the world the Life and Blessings of the eternal Life. If one doesn’t repent as the Lord reveals to him, that it may be replaced with that which is of the Lord, and in what the Lord our God wants, in order to participate in the Father’s work, then how can he be of any use to the Lord.

But yes, Love of God for God through Jesus Christ, trumps all, every time my friend, may it be well with you and your’s. God Bless.
Agreed! Thank you very much for the enjoyable and educational discussion!
 
spockrates
thanks for the reply

Let me ask you this then. Would it be a sin, or displeasing to the Lord, to not forgive, if some ask it of you? Isn’t the Gospel about God’s forgiveness? If you don’t forgive then what? Again what does the Lord Jesus say at the beginning of what He is saying here, “Take heed to yourselves”. Isn’t the Lord’s prayer”forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”? Then isn’t this of the same? In other words, is what your saying the minimum requirement, to not displease the Lord?
Good questions, those! I suppose the answer depends on what you mean by the word forgive. You see, it seems to me that there are three ways to forgive:


  1. *]Forgive with your thoughts and feelings
    *]Forgive with your words
    *]Forgive with your actions

    So my answer to your question is this (and please let me know where I err, if anywhere):

    A. I should forgive in the sense of (1) even if the person does not ask for forgiveness. Rather than feel anger and a desire for revenge, I should forgive by feeling peace and a desire for goodwill toward the one I forgive.

    B. I should forgive in the sense of (2) by telling the person I forgive him when he asks to be forgiven.

    C. I can forgive in the sense of (3) by pardoning the person, not holding him liable for his sins any longer, and even restoring a relationship with that person. But I should only forgive a person to this extent if he (a) was truly ignorant of the wrong he had committed, or (b) if the wrong he had committed was minor enough for me to overlook, or (c) if he was aware what he did was wrong, and the wrong was not a minor one, and he sincerely repented of that wrong.

    So let’s say the person asks me to forgive him, and I tell him I do, and then he asks me to remove the consequences for his sin that I have imposed. I ask him if he admits he was wrong and promises to try to never do it again. He tells me he did no wrong, and will do it again if the opportunity arises. I’d say that he leaves me no choice but to forgive him only in the sense of (A) and (B) but to withhold forgiveness in the sense of (C). What do you say?

    🙂
 
So the, “Take heed to yourselves” or as we more commonly say today, “So watch yourselves” is, I’m thinking, a warning to be careful to always forgive unconditionally in the sense of (1) and (2), but to be careful to not forgive in the sense of (3) unless the person is ignorant of his wrong, has not committed a serious wrong, or sincerely repents. That explains why Jesus said, “IF your brother repents, forgive him” rather than instead saying, “If your brother asks, forgive him.” But perhaps I’m wrong? What do you think is the reason He used the word repent rather than asks?

🤷
 
Good questions, those! I suppose the answer depends on what you mean by the word forgive. You see, it seems to me that there are three ways to forgive:


  1. *]Forgive with your thoughts and feelings
    *]Forgive with your words
    *]Forgive with your actions

    So my answer to your question is this (and please let me know where I err, if anywhere):

    A. I should forgive in the sense of (1) even if the person does not ask for forgiveness. Rather than feel anger and a desire for revenge, I should forgive by feeling peace and a desire for goodwill toward the one I forgive.

    B. I should forgive in the sense of (2) by telling the person I forgive him when he asks to be forgiven.

    C. I can forgive in the sense of (3) by pardoning the person, not holding him liable for his sins any longer, and even restoring a relationship with that person. But I should only forgive a person to this extent if he (a) was truly ignorant of the wrong he had committed, or (b) if the wrong he had committed was minor enough for me to overlook, or (c) if he was aware what he did was wrong, and the wrong was not a minor one, and he sincerely repented of that wrong.

    So let’s say the person asks me to forgive him, and I tell him I do, and then he asks me to remove the consequences for his sin that I have imposed. I ask him if he admits he was wrong and promises to try to never do it again. He tells me he did no wrong, and will do it again if the opportunity arises. I’d say that he leaves me no choice but to forgive him only in the sense of (A) and (B) but to withhold forgiveness in the sense of (C). What do you say?

    🙂

  1. spockrates
    thanks for the reply

    Excellent question.

    Well lets put it this way. It is illogical that man should be separated from his Maker. But then again, what separates men from their Maker? If the Maker removes the cause of separation of man from his Maker. Then it’s on who, that the relationship be mended, or restored? Needless to say the Lord our God sees the heart, hence He is the judge of whether a man’s repentance is genuine or not.

    As lone as He sees that we have not held against, no matter if you re-associate yourself to the offender or not, of which I am sure you are free to do.

    Consider; at the Cross all was forgiven, all men, all the world, but who does the Lord our God associate Himself to?
 
spockrates
thanks for the reply

Excellent question.

Well lets put it this way. It is illogical that man should be separated from his Maker. But then again, what separates men from their Maker? If the Maker removes the cause of separation of man from his Maker. Then it’s on who, that the relationship be mended, or restored? Needless to say the Lord our God sees the heart, hence He is the judge of whether a man’s repentance is genuine or not.

As lone as He sees that we have not held against, no matter if you re-associate yourself to the offender or not, of which I am sure you are free to do.

Consider; at the Cross all was forgiven, all men, all the world, but who does the Lord our God associate Himself to?
Well, one might say that all, without exception (which means even those now in Hell) were potentially forgiven, but not all (for example, those now in Hell) were actually forgiven. That is, they were never actually forgiven in the sense of (3), for they never allowed their potential forgiveness to become actual forgiveness. But they were actually forgiven in the sense of (1), for God never holds a grudge against, nor desires revenge against, anyone. As far as (2) goes, God says that all are forgiven, but I suppose he means that all are potentially forgiven, though not actually so, insofar as (3) is concerned.

So you or I should forgive the same way, shouldn’t we? We should actually seek to never hold a grudge nor desire revenge against anyone, but we should also not actually forgive everyone insofar as not holding them liable for their sins.

That’s my best guess. What’s yours?
 
God doesn’t favor 1 person over another. We are all equal in God’s eyes. We are judged on or merits alone, not in comparison to any other person.

Our society has taught us that if we are good boys and girls we get a reward. Or if we do the best, or get the highest score we are somehow better than everyone else.

That’s not how God works. God’s reward is given to us up front and we can choose for ourselves to keep it or throw it away. God has instilled good in every human being, we have to choose to respond to that goodness within us. Should we make the choice to ignore that natural goodness, thus choosing evil, God will not stop us. It’s our choice. He loves us so much that if we choose hell, he will not stop us from going there.

God is everything and isn’t lacking in anyway. He needs nothing. He doesn’t need us to do anything. Everything we do in our journey and within our relationship with God is for our benefit only.
 
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