repent

[believers]

Believers -

Wrong. Your response is entirely unbiblical!

You are referring to Acts 2:38. Peter says to the multitude, “Repent and be baptized…” You are using this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.

In Acts 2:39, Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God’s covenant family includes children. The word “children” that Peter used comes from the Greek word “teknon” which also includes infants.

In Acts 2:38, Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

There is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. **There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved. **

In Mark 16:16, Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says** believing is not enough**. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

In Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 and Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5, raise the question “If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church** immediately seek baptism**?”

And take a look at St. Paul, directly chosen by Christ and immediately converting to Christianity, in Acts 9:18 *still *had to be baptised and forgiven his sin! Even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ, baptism is salvific.

In Acts 22:16, Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ!!! This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin.** It is not a symbolic covering up of sin**. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

I wish every Protestant would read scripturecatholic.com before posting at CA.

The thief on the cross is proof enough. He turned to Jesus in faith and entered Heaven WITHOUT water baptism. Please don’t tell me about the unbiblical “baptism of desire”.

You should do as you are told and repent. If you repent, you’ll be baptized with the Holy Spirit. The ONLY baptism that saves.

“Repent and be baptized”

 

[believers]

Symbolic. Symbolic of salvation. But I do not wish to debate with you or share more because you are convinced you are right and I am wrong so I hardly see the point. And yes I am guilty of the same thing, which serves even more to keep me from delving in to this.

I also believe it is symbolic of what happens when a person repents. Their sins are washed away and they become a new person… washed of sin. John the Baptist preached and called it the baptism of repentance.

Mar 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

 

[Eden]

The thief on the cross is proof enough. He turned to Jesus in faith and entered Heaven WITHOUT water baptism. Please don’t tell me about the unbiblical “baptism of desire”.

O.K… Do you have any comment on the need for even Paul to be baptized with water or shall we just move on to the thief on the cross?

There are three kinds of Baptism:

Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood. When it is not possible to be baptized by water, as in the case of the thief on the cross, he was baptized by desire.

St. Thomas Aquinas describes these in Summa Theologica:

"I answer that the sacrament of baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized nor wish to be baptized; which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament in regard to those who have the use of free will. Consequently, those to whom baptism is wanting thus cannot obtain salvation; since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through whom alone can salvation be obtained.

“Secondly, the sacrament of baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire; for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized but by some ill chance he is forestalled by death before receiving baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that works by charity, whereby God, whose power is not tied to the visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen, ‘I lost him whom I was to regenerate, but he did not lose the grace he prayed for’” (Summa Theologia III:68:2, cf. III:66:11–12).

You should do as you are told and repent. If you repent, you’ll be baptized with the Holy Spirit. The ONLY baptism that saves.

It’s water and spirit. The Bible never separates them. Why do you? I was “born of water and of the Spirit” (John 3:3,5) “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19-20) when I was baptized.

 

[believers]

O.K… Do you have any comment on the need for even Paul to be baptized with water or shall we just move on to the thief on the cross?

There are three kinds of Baptism:

Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood. When it is not possible to be baptized by water, as in the case of the thief on the cross, he was baptized by desire.

St. Thomas Aquinas describes these in Summa Theologica:

"I answer that the sacrament of baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized nor wish to be baptized; which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament in regard to those who have the use of free will. Consequently, those to whom baptism is wanting thus cannot obtain salvation; since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through whom alone can salvation be obtained.

“Secondly, the sacrament of baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire; for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized but by some ill chance he is forestalled by death before receiving baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that works by charity, whereby God, whose power is not tied to the visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen, ‘I lost him whom I was to regenerate, but he did not lose the grace he prayed for’” (Summa Theologia III:68:2, cf. III:66:11–12).

It’s water and spirit. The Bible never separates them. Why do you? I was “born of water and of the Spirit” (John 3:3,5) “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19-20) when I was baptized.

No such thing as baptism by desire. That’s false doctrine. In other words, it’s not in the Bible and made up by the RCC. It’s simple, the thief professed Jesus Christ as Lord and believed in the resurrection.

Luk 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, (1.) Lord, remember me ** (2.) when thou comest into thy kingdom**.

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt (1.) confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt (2.) believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Also, I was born of water (natural birth). By the way we’re 95% water when we are first born. AND, I have been born of the spirit by turning to Jesus in faith.

So yes, water (natural birth) AND spirit (spiritual birth)

 

[Eden]

No such thing as baptism by desire. That’s false doctrine. In other words, it’s not in the Bible and made up by the RCC. It’s simple, the thief professed Jesus Christ as Lord and believed in the resurrection.

So, the answer is “yes”, you are going to ignore the fact that even Paul had to be baptized and ignore all of the biblical passages that clearly state that water baptism is regenerative?

In Luke 23:43, the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection.

believers:

Luk 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, (1.) Lord, remember me (2.) when thou comest into thy kingdom.

See response above.

believers:

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt (1.) confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt (2.) believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:9 does not mention repentance from sin, yet you agree that it is not possible to be saved without repentance, don’t you? I’m assuming, yes. So, we can both agree that Romans 10:9 is an abbreviated summary of what is required for salvation.

Romans 10:9 is just one of a number of abbreviated accounts of salvation that do not mention everything necessary. The message preached by both Jesus and John the Baptist was “Repent and believe,” but in Acts 2:38 Peter said, “Repent and be baptized,” without even mentioning belief. Later in Acts, Paul tells the Philippian jailer, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 2:31), without mentioning repentance or baptism. All of these descriptions of salvation are partial. They do not intend to set forth everything necessary.

 

[Eden]

Also, I was born of water (natural birth). By the way we’re 95% water when we are first born. AND, I have been born of the spirit by turning to Jesus in faith.

So yes, water (natural birth) AND spirit (spiritual birth)

The Greek of the text suggests that “born of water and the Spirit” (literally “born of water and spirit”) refers to a single, supernatural birth over against natural birth (“born of the flesh”). The phrase “of water and the Spirit” (Greek, ek hudatos kai pneumatos) is a single linguistical unit. **It refers to being “born of water and the Spirit,” not “born of water” on the one hand and “born of the Spirit” on the other. **

**

**

 

[believers]

O.K… Do you have any comment on the need for even Paul to be baptized with water or shall we just move on to the thief on the cross?

Paul was baptized with Christ’s baptism of the Holy Spirit. He was not baptized with John’s water baptism. He was baptized with the Holy Spirit when called on the name of the Lord.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved

Act 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Act 9:18
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Act 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, **calling on the name of the Lord.
**

 

[Allweather]

Paul wasn’t water baptized?

Acts 9:18, “And immediately there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and rising up, he was baptized.” (Douay-Rheims)

I’ve always taken that to mean that he was baptized in water just like everyone else was.

 

[believers]

Paul wasn’t water baptized?

Acts 9:18, “And immediately there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and rising up, he was baptized.” (Douay-Rheims)

I’ve always taken that to mean that he was baptized in water just like everyone else was.

You mean everyone in the RCC. Christ’s baptism is that of the Holy Spirit. John’s baptism was of water.

Act 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Act 9:18
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Luk 3:16
John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Act 11:16
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said,** John indeed baptized with water**; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

 

[believers]

So, the answer is “yes”, you are going to ignore the fact that even Paul had to be baptized and ignore all of the biblical passages that clearly state that water baptism is regenerative?

In Luke 23:43, the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection.

See response above.

Romans 10:9 does not mention repentance from sin, yet you agree that it is not possible to be saved without repentance, don’t you? I’m assuming, yes. So, we can both agree that Romans 10:9 is an abbreviated summary of what is required for salvation.

Romans 10:9 is just one of a number of abbreviated accounts of salvation that do not mention everything necessary. The message preached by both Jesus and John the Baptist was “Repent and believe,” but in Acts 2:38 Peter said, “Repent and be baptized,” without even mentioning belief. Later in Acts, Paul tells the Philippian jailer, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 2:31), without mentioning repentance or baptism. All of these descriptions of salvation are partial. They do not intend to set forth everything necessary.

To repent is to have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ which includes repentance.

Mat 9:13
But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mar 2:17
When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick:** I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.**

Luk 5:32
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Act 16:30
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Act 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

What do you think the jailer believed in? That Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God who called sinners to repentance.

 

[Eden]

Paul was baptized with Christ’s baptism of the Holy Spirit. He was not baptized with John’s water baptism. He was baptized with the Holy Spirit when called on the name of the Lord.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved

Act 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Act 9:18
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Act 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Your quotes with the correct bolding:

Acts 9:18

And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales:
and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Acts 22:16

arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins(the Greek word is “apolouo” which means actual cleansing which removes sins), calling on the name of the Lord.

In Acts 22:16, Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. **This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required. **Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

 

[Eden]

Luk 3:16
John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

What this speaks to is the baptismal act itself as effectual. St. John the Baptist prophesied that Jesus will baptize (“baptisei”) with the Holy Spirit and fire. In this case, “baptisei” refers to a “pouring” out over the head. This is confirmed by Matt. 3:16 where the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus’ head like a dove and Acts 2:3-4 where the Holy Spirit descended upon Mary and the apostles’ heads in the form of tongues of fire. In each case, in fulfilling John the Baptist’s prophecy, the Lord baptized (“baptizo”) in the form of pouring out His Spirit upon the head, not immersing the person.

Act 11:16
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said,** John indeed baptized with water**; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Again this speaks to the fact that after Christ’s death and resurrection, when we are baptized with water, our souls are actually infused with grace. What these verses you have provided show us, is that baptism is not a symbolic act.

With reference to www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Eden]

To repent is to have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ which includes repentance.

We agree that repentence is called for. You seem to have missed the point of my post.

We agree that repentence is necessary. You quoted Romans 10:9 in order to “prove” that baptism is not necessary. So, I pointed out that Romans 10:9 is an abbreviated version of what is needed, as it also leaves out “belief”. Do you understand now why this verse does not “prove” your argument?

 

[anthony022071]

Acts 10,44-48

While Peter was still speaking,the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word. the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,for they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter said,“Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing those people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[believers]

We agree that repentence is called for. You seem to have missed the point of my post.

We agree that repentence is necessary. You quoted Romans 10:9 in order to “prove” that baptism is not necessary. So, I pointed out that Romans 10:9 is an abbreviated version of what is needed, as it also leaves out “belief”. Do you understand now why this verse does not “prove” your argument?

I used the example of the thief on the cross because he was not water baptized. You said he was saved because of “baptism of desire” which is completely unbiblical. The reason he was saved is because of Romans 10:9.

Luk 23:42-3
And he said unto Jesus, (1.) Lord, (2.) remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, (3.) To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt (1.) confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and (2.) shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, (3.) thou shalt be saved.

 

[believers]

Your quotes with the correct bolding:

Acts 9:18

And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales:
and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Acts 22:16

arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins(the Greek word is “apolouo” which means actual cleansing which removes sins), calling on the name of the Lord.

In Acts 22:16, Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. **This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required. **Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Eden, was the purpose of John’s baptism to wash away sins? In other words, did John ever wash away sins through water baptism?

 

[chet]

Why? Why should you assume a Protestant is going to find stock in a site specifically geared towards a Catholic view on scripture?

You know what, I think you should read all of Martin Luther’s writngs, or Calvin’s, Zwingli, etc. before you enage a Protestant in debate. Judging by wht you said, certainly you should agree with me…

In sixty-seven theses Zwingli now proposed a formal program for the innovations; according to his view the Bible with his interpretation was to be the sole authority.

(And the serpent said : No, you shall not die. For God knows that the day you eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. Genesis Ch.3 vs.4-5)

From the Bible, which Zwingli had placed in their hands,The Anabaptists had deduced the most marvelous doctrines, much more radical than Zwingli’s. They questioned even the authority of the state. Zwingli persecuted them mercilessly with imprisonment, torture, banishment and death; their leader Felix Manz was drowned.

newadvent.org/cathen/15772a.htm

 

[chet]

Why? Why should you assume a Protestant is going to find stock in a site specifically geared towards a Catholic view on scripture?

You know what, I think you should read all of Martin Luther’s writings, or Calvin’s, Zwingli, etc. before you engage a Protestant in debate. Judging by what you said, certainly you should agree with me…

In sixty-seven theses Zwingli now proposed a formal program for the innovations; according to his view the Bible with his interpretation was to be the sole authority.

(And the serpent said : No, you shall not die. For God knows that the day you eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. Genesis Ch.3 vs.4-5)

From the Bible, which Zwingli had placed in their hands, The Anabaptists had deduced the most marvelous doctrines, much more radical than Zwingli’s. They questioned even the authority of the state. Zwingli persecuted them mercilessly with imprisonment, torture, banishment and death; their leader Felix Manz was drowned.

newadvent.org/cathen/15772a.htm

 

[chet]

I used the example of the thief on the cross because he was not water baptized. You said he was saved because of “baptism of desire” which is completely unbiblical. The reason he was saved is because of Romans 10:9.

Luk 23:42-3
And he said unto Jesus, (1.) Lord, (2.) remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, (3.) To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt (1.) confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and (2.) shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, (3.) thou shalt be saved.

Matthew 28:18-20

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you”

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you.’

1 Corinthians 9:27

but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

 

[chet]

Eden, was the purpose of John’s baptism to wash away sins? In other words, did John ever wash away sins through water baptism?

Acts 19:2-8

He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. There were in all about twelve men. And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.