Repetition in the Mass

[marthaferretti]

I’ve heard several comments over the years that some of the reforms made to the Mass during the 1960’s was intended to remove ‘needles repetition’ in the Mass.

This has always struck me as being a bogus motivation for reforming the Mass. I would suggest no prayer is needlessly repetitive if it’s accompanied with reflection on the prayer.

I’m no scripture scholar so I may be wrong on this point, but in the book of Revelation, St. John writes of a vision of Heaven where’ "day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy…” (Rev 4:8)

Would the Rosary or the Litanies be considered ‘needlessly repetitive’ ?

Any thoughts?

 

[Boulder257]

I’ve heard several comments over the years that some of the reforms made to the Mass during the 1960’s was intended to remove ‘needles repetition’ in the Mass.

This has always struck me as being a bogus motivation for reforming the Mass. I would suggest no prayer is needlessly repetitive if it’s accompanied with reflection on the prayer.

I’m no scripture scholar so I may be wrong on this point, but in the book of Revelation, St. John writes of a vision of Heaven where’ "day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy…” (Rev 4:8)

Would the Rosary or the Litanies be considered ‘needlessly repetitive’ ?

Any thoughts?

Do you have a source for those quotes? I only ask because I have never heard that and I would like to read them in context. thx.

 

[Sirach2]

I’ve heard several comments over the years that some of the reforms made to the Mass during the 1960’s was intended to remove ‘needless repetition’ in the Mass.

This has always struck me as being a bogus motivation for reforming the Mass. I would suggest no prayer is needlessly repetitive if it’s accompanied with reflection on the prayer.

Yes, this wording was in the Council’s document, but the keyword used just prior to “repetition” is “useless.” Therein lies the difference.

1. In this restoration, both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify; the Christian people, so far as possible, should be enabled to understand them with ease and to take part in them fully, actively, and as befits a community.
2. The rites should be distinguished by a noble simplicity; they should be short, clear, and unencumbered by useless repetitions; they should be within the people’s powers of comprehension, and normally should not require much explanation.

 

[Sonny89]

I’ve heard several comments over the years that some of the reforms made to the Mass during the 1960’s was intended to remove ‘needles repetition’ in the Mass.

This has always struck me as being a bogus motivation for reforming the Mass. I would suggest no prayer is needlessly repetitive if it’s accompanied with reflection on the prayer.

I’m no scripture scholar so I may be wrong on this point, but in the book of Revelation, St. John writes of a vision of Heaven where’ "day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy…” (Rev 4:8)

Would the Rosary or the Litanies be considered ‘needlessly repetitive’ ?

Any thoughts?

Peace and all good!

Tim Staples references this verse in Revelation in one of his Apologetics talks when defending the Rosary against the protestant accusation of repetitious prayer being condemned by Our Divine Lord.

I think you’ve hit on the key concept also, in that such repetition is (I believe) intended to foster a deeper recollection and reflection on the prayers or Scripture passages being repeated & to draw us more deeply into their meaning & significance, as well as to nurture our Faith and awareness of certain important concepts being conveyed-such as the Agnus Dei, which can help us to be more aware of Christ’s taking away of our sins & our own need of His forgiveness, which can in turn move us to gratitude & praise

 

[Elizium23]

Yes, this wording was in the Council’s document, but the keyword used just prior to “repetition” is “useless.” Therein lies the difference.

Actually the keyword used is the Latin “inutiles”. “Needless” and “useless” are both English translations of the document and may be disregarded in favor of the authoritative and authentic original, but yes, to my amateur eyes it appears that “useless” is the preferable analogue in English.

And for the record, this is one of the most hurtful phrases that is actually found in the Conciliar documents. I do not consider the repetitions in prayers useless at all. I learned much about Hebrew idioms in Bible study under the estimable Jeff Cavins. He explained that repetition was, and is, a key to emphasis. Therefore if something is to be emphasized, we repeat it. Indeed, Cavins uses this mechanism frequently himself while lecturing. So removing repetitions from the Mass unfortunately diminished its didactic value as well as its grandeur and impact on the faithful.

 

[Sirach2]

And for the record, this is one of the most hurtful phrases that is actually found in the Conciliar documents. I do not consider the repetitions in prayers useless at all. I learned much about Hebrew idioms in Bible study under the estimable Jeff Cavins. He explained that repetition was, and is, a key to emphasis. Therefore if something is to be emphasized, we repeat it. Indeed, Cavins uses this mechanism frequently himself while lecturing. So removing repetitions from the Mass unfortunately diminished its didactic value as well as its grandeur and impact on the faithful.

Interesting personal viewpoint, but not necessarily a common consensus.

1. In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. For the liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change. These not only may but ought to be changed with the passage of time if they have suffered from the intrusion of anything out of harmony with the inner nature of the liturgy or have become unsuited to it.

Since the Church has authority to change the liturgy, we simply trust that they have acted in good faith to make changes that some may believe are less suitable, but nevertheless do not harm our active worship, providing we lift up our minds, hearts and spirits hearts with Christ, Our Lord. There will always be those who disagree, but the common good of all is the main priority in any revision.

 

[ProVobis]

Therefore if something is to be emphasized, we repeat it.

There seems to be some truth in this. After all there are refrains and responsorial psalms in the music,* inter alia* (among other things).

 

[Sirach2]

I’m no scripture scholar so I may be wrong on this point, but in the book of Revelation, St. John writes of a vision of Heaven where’ "day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy…” (Rev 4:8)

Would the Rosary or the Litanies be considered ‘needlessly repetitive’ ?

As a postscript, are you aware of the many repetitions that HAVE BEEN retained in liturgy? Think about it!

OTOH, we do not recite the rosary or a litany during mass, except perhaps if a baptism takes place within the mass and we invoke the saints therein. I presume your main opposition is that the mass was changed – period. Not much you can do about that, is there? Unite your heart, mind and soul in liturgical worship along with the Body of Christ and you’ll be fine!

 

[z_0101]

Actually the keyword used is the Latin “inutiles”. “Needless” and “useless” are both English translations of the document and may be disregarded in favor of the authoritative and authentic original, but yes, to my amateur eyes it appears that “useless” is the preferable analogue in English…

I would argue that “needless” is the better of the translations.

The intent of the changes was to make the Mass more approachable by the general congregation. Until these changes were made, the Catholic Mass was a great mystery to many, even to cradle Catholics and for some the repetitions at certain points was interpreted in an negative context… At least this is the nutshell (very nutshell, we took four hours to cover this) version of the discussion in RCIA… we had an open topic forum one night and someone brought this up along with the Holy Rosary, chaplets, litanies, etc…

 

[Elizium23]

The reason the Catholic Mass is a great mystery to many, and always was and must remain one, is because it is rich in symbolism and ritual. Its many layers of meaning cannot be stripped away without reducing its impact. At its core are mysteries which cannot be adequately understood or conveyed by human language and intellect. Compare the Mystery of the Holy Trinity or the Byzantine term for the Sacraments, Holy Mysteries. The nature of the Mass is mystery itself! And if you think about it, repetition does not add to the mystery but actually contributes to exposition. Repetitions point to the parts which are really important. We repeat the antiphon of the Responsorial Psalm because it contains a central Truth about God. We repeat the Agnus Dei in adoration and worship of Christ who has redeemed us. In the Extraordinary Form, many more things are repeated, because they were central and important to the Eucharist. Are they no longer central and important? Have we sacrificed the teaching ability of repetition for the luxury of getting back to our cars in the parking lot after only one hour of worship? I don’t know.

In addition to the need for emphasis and teaching the importance of parts, we must not forget the utility of repetition for fostering meditation. This is the core of devotions such as the Rosary. We are commanded to meditate upon the mysteries while repeating these easily-memorized prayers. Therefore we enter more deeply into the Life of Christ. For those who do not understand Latin, surely it is even easier to find a meditative state while the prayers are being repeated, that allows us to unite ourselves with the Sacrifice of Calvary. As a choir member I often concentrate heavily on how many times I have recited the Agnus Dei so that I do it correctly and lead others to do the same, but I hope that we are also meditating on the great gift of the Eucharist which we are about to receive, because we all know the content of the prayer and what it means already.

In a way, the Mass itself is repetition, as there are parts that never change, and parts that cycle throughout the weeks and years. If we truly believed that repetition was useless then we would only go to Mass on special occasions. Surely repetition is good for the soul as it provides structure and discipline which we can rely on.

 

[Sonny89]

The reason the Catholic Mass is a great mystery to many, and always was and must remain one, is because it is rich in symbolism and ritual. Its many layers of meaning cannot be stripped away without reducing its impact. At its core are mysteries which cannot be adequately understood or conveyed by human language and intellect. Compare the Mystery of the Holy Trinity or the Byzantine term for the Sacraments, Holy Mysteries. The nature of the Mass is mystery itself! And if you think about it, repetition does not add to the mystery but actually contributes to exposition. Repetitions point to the parts which are really important. We repeat the antiphon of the Responsorial Psalm because it contains a central Truth about God. We repeat the Agnus Dei in adoration and worship of Christ who has redeemed us. In the Extraordinary Form, many more things are repeated, because they were central and important to the Eucharist. Are they no longer central and important? Have we sacrificed the teaching ability of repetition for the luxury of getting back to our cars in the parking lot after only one hour of worship? I don’t know.

In addition to the need for emphasis and teaching the importance of parts, we must not forget the utility of repetition for fostering meditation. This is the core of devotions such as the Rosary. We are commanded to meditate upon the mysteries while repeating these easily-memorized prayers. Therefore we enter more deeply into the Life of Christ. For those who do not understand Latin, surely it is even easier to find a meditative state while the prayers are being repeated, that allows us to unite ourselves with the Sacrifice of Calvary. As a choir member I often concentrate heavily on how many times I have recited the Agnus Dei so that I do it correctly and lead others to do the same, but I hope that we are also meditating on the great gift of the Eucharist which we are about to receive, because we all know the content of the prayer and what it means already.

In a way, the Mass itself is repetition, as there are parts that never change, and parts that cycle throughout the weeks and years. If we truly believed that repetition was useless then we would only go to Mass on special occasions. Surely repetition is good for the soul as it provides structure and discipline which we can rely on.

Peace and All Good!



Excellently put-thank you

The Mass is self is a Catechism of the Catholic Faith It is a tremendous teaching tool in itself, showing forth to us the central Mysteries of our Faith. It’s also much more than this, of course, as in it we receive Our Divine Lord in His Body Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament

But the repetition does serve a deeper purpose, in the Mass & other prayers

 

[ProVobis]

I would argue that “needless” is the better of the translations.

FWIW, in the working environment maybe, but in the legal sense probably not.

dictionary.thelaw.com/utile-per-inutile-non-vitiatur/

EIther way, it’s a very nebulous term (or too subjective) to be applied generally.

 

[Sirach2]

The Mass is self is a Catechism of the Catholic Faith It is a tremendous teaching tool in itself, showing forth to us the central Mysteries of our Faith. It’s also much more than this, of course, as in it we receive Our Divine Lord in His Body Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament

But the repetition does serve a deeper purpose, in the Mass & other prayers.

So far, nobody has disagreed that repetition is useful within liturgy. [Exception: **useless repetition] Are we overlooking the Op’s underlying premise that this was the “bogus motivation” to reform the liturgy? He seems to be misinformed and wanting us to agree with him and point fingers at the hierarchy. :tsktsk:

 

[ProVobis]

Superlative!

 

[WilT]

I’ve heard several comments over the years that some of the reforms made to the Mass during the 1960’s was intended to remove ‘needles repetition’ in the Mass

Would the Rosary or the Litanies be considered ‘needlessly repetitive’ ?

Any thoughts?

If you did the Rosary correctly your answer would be no. The Holy Rosary recited well allows for contemplation and the steady repetitive prayers allows for the words to penetrate are harden hearts. Doing the Rosary and doing it right is repetitive by essential to mellow ones being before God.
On the other hand I once attended a (I believe was an Orthodox Church) aligned with ours, and they did a whole lot of repetitive prayers and signs. If I remember correctly they did over and over the sign of the cross. I did strike me as over doing it but since I’m not a regular there I see it as unusually repetitive. This OC reminds me of what the Catholic Church may have been like before Vat. 11.

 

[CB_Catholic]

If you did the Rosary correctly your answer would be no. The Holy Rosary recited well allows for contemplation and the steady repetitive prayers allows for the words to penetrate are harden hearts. Doing the Rosary and doing it right is repetitive by essential to mellow ones being before God.
On the other hand I once attended a (I believe was an Orthodox Church) aligned with ours, and they did a whole lot of repetitive prayers and signs. If I remember correctly they did over and over the sign of the cross. I did strike me as over doing it but since I’m not a regular there I see it as unusually repetitive. This OC reminds me of what the Catholic Church may have been like before Vat. 11.

Not at all. We did not do multiple SOC’s as the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics do during their liturgy. The Latin Church was not ever like the OC or the ECC in their Liturgies, except for the general format of the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Generally the Orthodox do not pray the Rosary; you saw that in the Latin Church before, after, and during Mass. There is no way you would be reminded of an OC in a pre-Vatican II Mass.

 

[WilT]

Generally the Orthodox do not pray the Rosary; you saw that in the Latin Church before, after, and during Mass. There is no way you would be reminded of an OC in a pre-Vatican II Mass.

The Eastern Orthodox do do the Rosary. Usually before or after their Mass.

 

[CB_Catholic]

The Eastern Orthodox do do the Rosary. Usually before or after their Mass.

Maybe the church you went to does, but most do not. It is a Latin tradition. But anyway, the point of my post was to say that the Pre-Vatican II church did not resemble the Orthodox Church.