Repetitions in prayer

[BobCatholic]

Matthew 6:7 (Douay Rheims)
And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.

now compare this

Luke 18
And he spoke also a parable to them, that we ought always to pray, and not to faint, Saying: There was a judge in a certain city, who feared not God, nor regarded man. And there was a certain widow in that city, and she came to him, saying: Avenge me of my adversary. And he would not for a long time. But afterwards he said within himself: Although I fear not God, nor regard man, Yet because this widow is troublesome to me, I will avenge her, lest continually coming she weary me.

So in one verse Jesus says not to pray with tons of words. And then we are to prayer repeatedly in the second verse.

So which one is it?

Do I have to keep praying over and over and over and over to get God to finally listen to me? Or is it that God will listen to our prayers even if I don’t pray too much?

 

[Trident_H]

Matthew 6:7 (Douay Rheims)
And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.

now compare this

Luke 18
And he spoke also a parable to them, that we ought always to pray, and not to faint, Saying: There was a judge in a certain city, who feared not God, nor regarded man. And there was a certain widow in that city, and she came to him, saying: Avenge me of my adversary. And he would not for a long time. But afterwards he said within himself: Although I fear not God, nor regard man, Yet because this widow is troublesome to me, I will avenge her, lest continually coming she weary me.

So in one verse Jesus says not to pray with tons of words. And then we are to prayer repeatedly in the second verse.

So which one is it?

Do I have to keep praying over and over and over and over to get God to finally listen to me? Or is it that God will listen to our prayers even if I don’t pray too much?

I think the idea’s to pray often. But just not to make a whole speech about it each time. A sincere prayer’s supposed to cut to the chase. But you might have to do that a bunch of times to show you really mean it.

 

[fred_conty]

Could it be that one type of prayer is merely repetitious without paying any attention to what was being said, but merely repeating words without thought.

While the women really needed and knew what she was asking for and not just being routinely repititious.

 

[FractalFire]

I think the idea’s to pray often. But just not to make a whole speech about it each time. A sincere prayer’s supposed to cut to the chase. But you might have to do that a bunch of times to show you really mean it.

NIV translates it like this, which I think makes more sense to our modern ears in this instance:

Matthew 6:7

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.”

I don’t think it is saying anything about *long *prayers.

I always thought it was condemning repetition without understanding, as when someone memorizes a prayer, but repeats it so often that it loses all meaning for them and just becomes a lot of words (a chant, rather than a conversation). (It is a common habit of humanity that repeating anything long enough will make us lose our concentration and forget the meaning of whatever we are saying.) If we were to only pray the Lord’s prayer over and over, for example, without ever really considering what it meant, we wouldn’t really be “praying” would we? It would be more like a mechanical action we took rather than really communication and/or adoration.

It also seems specifically to be going against the grain of prayer at that time, which sometimes consisted of one sentence chants repeated constantly, as if God didn’t hear the first time. God hears, but I don’t think He wants you to act as if you were wishing on some genie and thought repeating your wishes might get you what you desired.

This is not to say that memorized prayers are bad. Obviously, the Lord’s Prayer is a good thing to memorize and pray (indeed, pray often). I think it just condemns turning any prayer into a repetitious action rather than a conversation. God seems to be okay with humanity pouring out its heart to Him, so long as they do it in a meaningful way and not as if they were trying to push the right button enough times to make sure they got what they wanted.

A group of commentaries explaining this verse is collected here: studylight.org/commentary/matthew/6-7.html

The first two are particularly interesting, contrasting some Muslim methods of praying with Christian ones.

 

[pianistclare]

If you are having a sincere convo with the Lord, you can’t be doing it wrong.

Just pray. It’s all good.

 

[Rasoleil]

If you are having a sincere convo with the Lord, you can’t be doing it wrong.

Just pray. It’s all good.

I know that the angels do, so it’s good enough for me:

"Day and night, without pause, they ( Cherubim or Seraphim)
sing:

   " Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
         He who was, and who is, and who is to come!"

Revelation 4: 8.

 

[Elizium23]

Do Catholics pray vain repetitions?
Tim Staples:

I think we should begin here by quoting the actual text of Matt. 6:7:

And in praying do not heap up empty phrases (“vain repetitions” in KJV) as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Notice the context? Jesus said “do not heap up ‘empty phrases’ (Gr. – battalagesete, which means to stammer, babble, prate, or to repeat the same things over and over mindlessly) as the Gentiles do…” We have to remember that the main idea of prayer and sacrifice among the pagans was to appease the gods so that you could go on with your own life. You had to be careful to “take care of” all of the gods by mentioning them, and saying all the right words, lest you bring a curse upon yourself.

And remember as well, the gods themselves were immoral at times! They were selfish, cruel, vengeful etc. The pagans would say their incantations, offer their sacrifice, but there was no real connection between the moral life and the prayer. Jesus is saying that this will not cut it in the New Covenant Kingdom of God! One must pray from a heart of repentance and submission to God’s will. But does Jesus mean to exclude the possibility of devotions like the Rosary or the Divine Mercy Chaplet which repeat prayers? No, he does not. This becomes evident when in the very next verses of Matthew 6, Jesus says:

Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus gave us a prayer to recite! But notice the emphasis on living the words of the prayer! This is a prayer to be recited, but they are neither “empty phrases” nor “vain repetitions.”

 

[AttendeDomine]

So which one is it?

First of all, I suppose that, from the way you worded your post, you are struggling to obtain something in prayer. I just wanted to let you know that I’ll be praying for you.

Secondly, since you quoted the Douay-Rheims, let’s look at commentary on Matthew 6:7 from the Haydock Bible:

[Speak not much.[2] ] Long prayer is not here forbidden; for Christ himself spent whole nights in prayer: and he sayeth, we must pray always; and the apostle, that we must pray without intermission, 1 Thessalonians v.; and the holy Church hath had from the beginning her canonical hours for prayer, but rhetorical and elaborate prayer, as if we thought to persuade God by our eloquence, is forbidden; the collects of the Church are most brief and most effectual. (St. Augustine, ep. 121. chap. viii, ix, x.) (Bristow) — Perseverance in prayer is recommended us by the example of the poor widow, who by her importunity prevailed over the unjust judge. (St. Chrysostom, hom. xix.) — The Greek word means, to babble or trifle.

As you can see, this commentary deals at once with both of your passages, and it makes clear that (1) there is a certain type of praying which Christ forbids, one that is “rhetorical and elaborate” as if “to persuade God by our eloquence;” and (2) that perseverance in prayer is something Christ very much so encourages us to pursue.

Now, to be frank, I see absolutely no tension between those two points. One can easily strive for (1) as well as (2), and there would be no logical contradiction.

But moreover, “not speaking much” is a phrase in the Latin text, while the Greek apparently says something like “heaping up empty phrases.”

This is understood by the Catechism of the Catholic Church to be a mechanical, mindless, heartless sort of prayer, one that is not filled with filial devotion, but that is empty and meaningless. For more information, see paragraphs 2607-2608, and 2668.

 

[mikekle]

**Matthew 6:7

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.”**

Id say this applies to people just going thru the motions, I know plenty of people doing this very thing, they truly think just saying some words enough times, at a certain time, is somehow a benefit to them.

These are the same people looking at their watches if mass goes just a little bit longer than 50 minutes…in short, they dont really want to be there, dont really want to be saying those words over and over again, but its how they were raised and its all automatic.

 

[BobCatholic]

The jist of the problem is this.

We are told we can ask God for what we want. We are to be confident and trusting we have a loving father.

But then we’re told to keep praying for six tons of time.

St. Monica came to mind. 18 years of NO.

Please tell me how 18 years of prayers is not using a LOT OF WORDS?

Sometimes it is like God is playing a game of “keep away” instead of giving me confidence in his willingness to help. Or making it horrendously difficult for people to ask. Or acting like a bureaucrat.

Please fill out form #A32309, in quadruplicate, and wait 4 to 6 decades for an answer.

 

[fred_conty]

What you say is true, but there is one more element to be added … thy will be done. When we say this we mean “in your due time”, “as it pleases you”, “as you see fit”. The longer the time, the longer the trust in God which is a good thing. For God rewards that trust in him. So that 18 years of trusting made her prayer strong.

If St. Monica had not prayed for 18 years who knows if she would have become the person in God’s eye that she became. A mother’s love, and her trust in Jesus, makes her the devout person she was. Her story is the story that Jesus told of the woman in the gospel who wouldn’t give up asking. Besides, who knows if God used all those graces of 18 years of prayer on her son. Maybe this was a way of using her prayers to save others as well.

I think it is the American way to do everything in a hurry and get things done quickly. But we have to be careful not to push our ways off on God. These are good lessons to understand that God does help us if we don’t try to twist His arm with an “either or” threat of any kind. Or insist on certain parameters to be followed when we pray. In short, is our attitude good or does it smell. Humility can work wonders as St. Monica proved.

 

[Nelka]

Mark 14:39*Again he went away and prayed, saying the same words.

 

[CRATUS]

the rosary is repetitive prayer but it is supposed to be used a meditation or at least I think.

 

[Elizium23]

the rosary is repetitive prayer but it is supposed to be used a meditation or at least I think.

I have already linked the answer to that.
Tim Staples:

For those who do not know, the Rosary is not about “mindless repetition” so that God will hear us. We repeat the prayers of the Rosary to be sure, but we do so in order that we may keep our focus while we meditate upon the most important mysteries of the Faith. I find it to be a wonderful way for me to be able to focus on the Lord.

In the end, I have found, the prayers, devotions, and meditations of the Catholic tradition actually save me from the “vain repetition” that Jesus warns about in the Gospel.

This does not mean that there is not a danger of mindlessly repeating the Rosary or other such devotions. There is. We must always stay on guard against that very real possibility. But if we do fall prey to “vain repetition” in prayer, it will not be because we are “saying the same words” over and over in prayer as our Lord did in Mark 14:39. It will be because we are not praying from the heart and truly entering into the great devotions Holy Mother Church provides for our spiritual nourishment.

 

[BobCatholic]

OK, I get it, it is OK to say a ton of words.

But why does God require it of some people?

Why couldn’t God say to St. Monica “Your humble prayer has been heard. Please wait 18 years.” instead of “beg for 18 years and maybe I’ll finally say yes”

How is requiring someone to beg for 18 years a good thing?

If a human father tried that with something his child needed, that’d be child abuse.

“No, you cannot have something to eat now. You will be fed in a week, but only if you beg constantly.”

I don’t understand this. Please help me understand.

 

[Elizium23]

Catechism of the Catholic Church
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Why do we complain of not being heard?

2735 In the first place, we ought to be astonished by this fact: when we praise God or give him thanks for his benefits in general, we are not particularly concerned whether or not our prayer is acceptable to him. On the other hand, we demand to see the results of our petitions. What is the image of God that motivates our prayer: an instrument to be used? or the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?

2736 Are we convinced that “we do not know how to pray as we ought”?23 Are we asking God for “what is good for us”? Our Father knows what we need before we ask him,24 but he awaits our petition because the dignity of his children lies in their freedom. We must pray, then, with his Spirit of freedom, to be able truly to know what he wants.25

2737 "You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions."26 If we ask with a divided heart, we are “adulterers”;27 God cannot answer us, for he desires our well-being, our life. "Or do you suppose that it is in vain that the scripture says, ‘He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us?’"28 That our God is “jealous” for us is the sign of how true his love is. If we enter into the desire of his Spirit, we shall be heard.

Do not be troubled if you do not immediately receive from God what you ask him; for he desires to do something even greater for you, while you cling to him in prayer.29
God wills that our desire should be exercised in prayer, that we may be able to receive what he is prepared to give.30

 

[BobCatholic]

"What is the image of God that motivates our prayer: an instrument to be used? "

No. A father who plays “keep away” until I say the right number of prayers.

"Are we asking God for “what is good for us”? "

Yes. And if it is not God’s will anyway, game over.

if we ask with a divided heart, we are “adulterers”;

Unfortunately, I’m on earth trying to survive. As a result, surviving is considered evil and I am divided. I have to choose to either be able to survive or God, and God does not want me to survive.

“That our God is “jealous” for us”

If that were true, would He play “keep away”? Would he not talk or try to get closer? Or would he just remain distant and not care about me like he does?

“God wills that our desire should be exercised in prayer,”

So “keep away” is the name of the game. How is this loving?

 

[Elizium23]

It seems as if you are having a full-blown crisis of faith or Dark Night of the Soul. See a priest.

 

[Trident_H]

"What is the image of God that motivates our prayer: an instrument to be used? "

No. A father who plays “keep away” until I say the right number of prayers.

"Are we asking God for “what is good for us”? "

Yes. And if it is not God’s will anyway, game over.

if we ask with a divided heart, we are “adulterers”;

Unfortunately, I’m on earth trying to survive. As a result, surviving is considered evil and I am divided. I have to choose to either be able to survive or God, and God does not want me to survive.

“That our God is “jealous” for us”

If that were true, would He play “keep away”? Would he not talk or try to get closer? Or would he just remain distant and not care about me like he does?

“God wills that our desire should be exercised in prayer,”

So “keep away” is the name of the game. How is this loving?

Hey Bob. I think maybe you’re hurting in this. Maybe you’re frustrated. Maybe even a bit angry. But I don’t think you can think of God like some parent who’s looking at life at the same angle as you are. I think you need to step back a bit and think this through.

Because I don’t think God really cares about your misery and death like you do. I mean what is that to Him? Your misery is almost always a chance for growth. A weening from addictions. A re-aligning of priorities. A time of increased reliance on Him.

And your death is just that time of new beginning where you’ll spend the rest of your time with Him.

So if He doesn’t really just jump to things when you want Him to. If He seems to take a span of time outside your expectations? Well it’s because He doesn’t share your sense of panic in this. He doesn’t share your shortness of breath. He’s in no real rush. He’s got lots of time.

And so do you.

So relax a bit Bob. Don’t try to put all your trust in a timeframe. Just be what you need to be. Just relax. And know that your order’s already been shipped. It’s already on its way. It just might take a few years.

Peace Bob.

-Trident

 

[BobCatholic]

It seems as if you are having a full-blown crisis of faith or Dark Night of the Soul. See a priest.

Definitely not a dark night of the soul. Prerequisite is to have Dark night of the senses.
And the prerequisite to the dark night of the senses is extacies of God. Never had that.

This is a full-blown rejection. I have been rejected by God.

Every priest I meet is very…unserious. It is like Bobby McFerrin is singing in their heads. “don’t worry be happy”